[CS2] Valkenhayn Vs. Tager

[NickExtreme1]

Discuss the Valkenhayn vs. Tager match-up here.

Punishes:

So essentially, if he throws out a 5C, just be ready to reaction 6A his 6C or 2D.

5D means he'll reset pressure or go for BSledge. BSledge is VERY easy to react to after that so just be ready.

If he goes for high/low mixup after 6A by means of 6B/3C, you can IB his 3C and punish it clean with 2B. Caution though, you have a 1 frame opening to do so as you're making 2B hit on the very last frame of recovery. Worth it if you can hit, and if he blocks it, just continue pressure. Best part is the punish has him crouching so you get a full Rozen combo on top of that. BUT if you're point blank, throw him if you're in the corner. Corner throw combos do more damage and its easier to time it.

If the Tager insists on using 5D to pull in and he miss spaced it, Call him out with Rozen and you can hit him from nearly full screen with the magnetism pull. But you'd more likely see this around half screen so delay a bit to avoid getting hit on startup. CH Rozen leads to 5.5k if the corner with meter so definitely take advantage of it.

j.2C:

[w]5B is a clean punish, 2C sometimes will trade with it.

Anti-airing:

Tager has some very strong air normals. Hes one of the few that can make a trade with Valk's 2C actually bad. But nonetheless, you can't let him do that to you so if you can call out the right normal, you can try and do something. Sadly though, 2C can actually get stuffed by j.B A LOT. But if hes telegraphed, 6A will beat anything he does in the air. Thats your most reliable AA against Tager since hes very linear in his aerial approach despite him having incredible air normals.

[w]5B makes for a great anti-air in this match-up, beats out Tager's j.2C

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Tager wants to get in and keep pressuring Valk to get impatient and try and either hit him or get away. Tager will force you to act in some cases or eat shit for it. You NEED good yomi to deal with Tager's offence. Valk has incredibly limited options up close so you must be careful. Tick grabs and yomi Colliders are gonna be frustrating to deal with. Not to mention that Tager will always be looking to AA you with 2C. You get hit by 2C, you're eating 4k into GF and he will then have enough meter for 720. Hes also gonna try and throw 6A to get you to mash into Super Armor and this will probably be his best answer to Wolf approach meaning you need to watch out if hes charging. The Super Armor eats up 1500 Damage total(He takes half of it though) So he can eat any one hit you throw at him, even SUPERS! So don't mash against his 6A, either jump and barrier or just block it.

Strategy:

Char specific details:

Tager Specific: 4BC>RC>2C>6B>2C>JC>D>[W]j.AAA>j.236A>j.236B>C>j.B>j.B>Land>5B>JC>j.AAA>JC>D>[H]j.C (3549 Damage, 28 Heat gained back)

The Tager specific is what used to be the Bang/Arakune specific, RC the back throw and Tager gets thrown with Valk in front of him so you can just stand there and pick it up once he hits the ground :3

[OrionXElite]

OK, so this is literally my FAVORITE matchup to use 6A in because Tager has some very predictable and vulnerable strings to hit him with.

Punishes:

So essentially, if he throws out a 5C, just be ready to reaction 6A his 6C or 2D.

5D means he'll reset pressure or go for BSledge. BSledge is VERY easy to react to after that so just be ready.

If he goes for high/low mixup after 6A by means of 6B/3C, you can IB his 3C and punish it clean with 2B. Caution though, you have a 1 frame opening to do so as you're making 2B hit on the very last frame of recovery. Worth it if you can hit, and if he blocks it, just continue pressure. Best part is the punish has him crouching so you get a full Rozen combo on top of that. BUT if you're point blank, throw him if you're in the corner. Corner throw combos do more damage and its easier to time it.

If the Tager insists on using 5D to pull in and he miss spaced it, Call him out with Rozen and you can hit him from nearly full screen with the magnetism pull. But you'd more likely see this around half screen so delay a bit to avoid getting hit on startup. CH Rozen leads to 5.5k if the corner with meter so definitely take advantage of it.

Anti-airing:

Tager has some very strong air normals. Hes one of the few that can make a trade with Valk's 2C actually bad. But nonetheless, you can't let him do that to you so if you can call out the right normal, you can try and do something. Sadly though, 2C can actually get stuffed by j.B A LOT. But if hes telegraphed, 6A will beat anything he does in the air. Thats your most reliable AA against Tager since hes very linear in his aerial approach despite him having incredible air normals.

Zoning:

The "Zoning" of this matchup is more or less harassing Tager with 5C and 6C. Tager has very limited options to both of these. With 5C beating pretty much anything he can do and 6C being +2, you can keep throwing these and chip away at his health and Primers. Tager's "Zoning" is going to revolve around controlling movement with Magnetism. Valk cannot run around in Wolf Form while Magnetized because while he can't necessarily grab you with Collider while Dashing around, you can't control where you go at all. If you were to 5C Dash Magnetized and Tager throws Collider and holds, you'll fly under hand but loop back up and go flying off the top of the screen. And if you were to Brake the Dash, you just go right to his hand and eat shit.

Their game plan:

Tager wants to get in and keep pressuring Valk to get impatient and try and either hit him or get away. Tager will force you to act in some cases or eat shit for it. You NEED good yomi to deal with Tager's offence. Valk has incredibly limited options up close so you must be careful. Tick grabs and yomi Colliders are gonna be frustrating to deal with. Not to mention that Tager will always be looking to AA you with 2C. You get hit by 2C, you're eating 4k into GF and he will then have enough meter for 720. Hes also gonna try and throw 6A to get you to mash into Super Armor and this will probably be his best answer to Wolf approach meaning you need to watch out if hes charging. The Super Armor eats up 1500 Damage total(He takes half of it though) So he can eat any one hit you throw at him, even SUPERS! So don't mash against his 6A, either jump and barrier or just block it.

Strategy:

5C is the key to dealing with Tager. Tager has fantastic normals and footsies but there are still a few characters who can beat them: Valk, Litchi and Ragna. So use that to your advantage. Learn to hit confirm CH5C into Rozen and especially learn the Spacing for 5C>Jager(236A) when you have meter as that can make any hit into a strong combo. Slowly push Tager to the corner and build up meter then just go nuts. 50 Meter with Valk means anything can go into 4k. I personally like to run lots of lows on anyone until I have meter then on their wakeup, do dash up into instant overhead j.C. If you're midscreen, mixup is just as potent cause high/low and throws can all be picked up into big damage thanks to Tager being so big that when you Rapid a Back Throw, Valk gets pushed in front of him.

Char specific details:

Be very careful of tick grabs against Tager. 360B with Tager is 5k EVERYTIME. Valk has a very wide aerial hitbox which means Tager can go 360B>2B>Collider>Collider(Whiff)>Magna Tech Wheel for 5.6k Damage. Or he can go 360B>2B>Collider>BSledge>Gadget for 4.6k. Either way, 360B HURTS Valk badly. One 360B means half his health is gone so you have to be sharp against Tager.

Will add more when I wake up, too tired to write up more, ironic its on the character I know the best :3 This will be quite full of info when I finish it so look forward to it.

EDIT: Added more info. Will play this matchup later and amend if needed. This is more than enough to know what to do, the rest of the matchup is playing to the Tager player's Style more than anything beyond this.

[Guardian]

At neutral i find this match up to be extremely boring. Tager's 5A will beat anything from neutral in wolf. Valk's 5C, if spaced properly, can CH 5A mash attempts for full combos. From full screen/neutral, it's best to keep him honest in wolf. If he does just about anything other than 5/2A, you can punish the whiff with wolf, most of them on reaction with a 5C dash into [w]j.a or j.b. Even a well timed 7C dash in wolf can evade spark bolt. As orion said earlier, you do NOT want to be in his face. Your optimum range to pressure him is the max range of your 5B. It's a habit of all non-japanese tagers to not want to guess, so you'll have to have good oki in order to mix him up and bait all of his anti oki options (360A, backdash, 2C, both supers, 5A mash).

I find [w]5B to be a safer AA than 6A or 2C;Orion is there a reason you prefer these over [w]5B? It still beats all his jump in options and if he does the elbow, you can always just 4/7C dash cancel away after you whiff.

[OrionXElite]

I like [W]5B to AA by I've had his j.B beat it before but I've also had better reads with his 6A so its more of a preference on my part.

[Kiba]

I strongly wouldn't advise blocking his 6A. not only does he have a high/low mixup but he can 360 you too :/ (Yes he can do it w/o getting a purple grab) If you can, use 3C which nets you a CH. If he's near the corner and you have good reaction skills you could 236B - RC - 2C into stuff.

Alternatively, you could use wolf form to run backwards to avoid being heavily pulled in when magged.

Oh also, he can 360 our [W] 5C - JA/JB...

[OrionXElite]

If you're magnetized and he throws it out to try and pull you in, super jump and you'll fly over his head. If you're not magnetized and hes using it in a blockstring, just take a guess honestly. Jump beats tick grabs, mashing beats overheads and just sitting there blocking will deal with the 3C. 6A is still one of Tager's best tools so be careful about it.

[Onesownfollies]

So basically, from reading all the great information here:

-Don't get to close to Tager and don't pressure him inside 5B range or rather 360 range.

-5C him for long range poke.

-Be wary of his meter for fear of a 720.

-3C his 6A if I am in range. I have problems with his 6A and now I know to just try to get away or 3C him if I am fast enough. I tried blocking it a couple of times, but very bad results lol.

-When Magnetized, run like hell, lol.

I'm confused at one aspect though. When I am magnetized, do I try to get away from him and wait till I am back to normal? Is it unsafe to try to mix it up some wolf setups? Or is it safer to wait. Also, for the AA to 360 mix up....how can I deal with that? I seriously fall for that all a lot . Also, what is my best pressure tool against him?

[Sahgren]

I'm confused at one aspect though. When I am magnetized, do I try to get away from him and wait till I am back to normal? Is it unsafe to try to mix it up some wolf setups? Or is it safer to wait. Also, for the AA to 360 mix up....how can I deal with that? I seriously fall for that all a lot . Also, what is my best pressure tool against him?

Running up to mix him up while in wolf is unsafe, but it does force the Tager to hold back even when you're magnetized in order to cover the possibility that you do rush in. That in turn makes running away easier, since the Tager won't be going balls-to-the-walls offense in order to try and draw you in. Ultimately though, that's a judgement call you'll have to make in each match in terms of how much you're willing to take the risk.

For the 360/Atomic Collider mix up (I'm assuming after a Gadget Finger), backdashing as soon as possible forces them to mix in poking with 5A and drawing you back in with 6A, so at the least you'll make them try stuff that won't immediately punish you for standing still/jumping.

For pressure, keep it short before running away. Valk is considerably more mobile than Tager, and with his strong pokes you can play keep away fairly efficiently, so you really don't have much of a reason to add on risk by attacking aggressively. Play it safe and lame it out with pokes and the occasional wolf rushdown to wear them down and force them to try something you can punish.

In general: Keep mixing it up. Tager has to rely on out yomi-ing you in order to land hits and get the advantage. Keep mixing up what you're doing in order to prevent them from getting a read.

[Kiba]

Really useful stuff. I was going to ask about how to move around with Valk against Tager and your post answered my question. Thanks, much appreciated.

[50-50罠]

I'm really feeling this forum. I just started playing BB for a few weeks now. I gotta start off by saying I wish ppl played this as much as they play IV. I think the game is way more involved than IV.

So I was messing with punishing Tagers 5C>6C, and once I ib I can punish w/5B. So which one would be better? I'm assuming 6A because I guess you get a whole DOG combo off it.

Edit- Ok after some playing around I like 6A punish better. Does 6A punish feel a little stiff sometimes for you guys? Like sometimes after I ib Tager 5C, it feels like there's a slight wait or something. Like I'm recovering from ib. Just curious to know, I'm sure it's nothing major. Prolly just me needing to get use to the correct execution.

[50-50罠]

And I need a bit of clarification on some termage used. When you guys say Rozen do you mean " Nacht Rosen " " Night Rose " ( the uppercut ), or Rasen Wolf ( Rave Wolf )? The spellings are similar on the wikia I'm using to reference the moves and beat them in my head. The way I see it spelled on here, however; is different from the wikia and it's kinda confusing me a bit. Just a ?.

[Kiba]

So I was messing with punishing Tagers 5C>6C, and once I ib I can punish w/5B. So which one would be better? I'm assuming 6A because I guess you get a whole DOG combo off it.

Edit- Ok after some playing around I like 6A punish better. Does 6A punish feel a little stiff sometimes for you guys? Like sometimes after I ib Tager 5C, it feels like there's a slight wait or something. Like I'm recovering from ib. Just curious to know, I'm sure it's nothing major. Prolly just me needing to get use to the correct execution.

You can do CH 5B - Rozen to get more damage and better corner carry. In addition you could also do CH 5B - 6B which can net you more damage but it requires you to be closer otherwise it'll whiff.

And I need a bit of clarification on some termage used. When you guys say Rozen do you mean " Nacht Rosen " " Night Rose " ( the uppercut )' date=' or Rasen Wolf ( Rave Wolf )? The spellings are similar on the wikia I'm using to reference the moves and beat them in my head. The way I see it spelled on here, however; is different from the wikia and it's kinda confusing me a bit. Just a ?.[/quote']

We mean Nacht Rosen, heh.

[50-50罠]

Discuss the Valkenhayn vs. Tager match-up here.

Punishes:

j.2C:

[w]5B is a clean punish, 2C sometimes will trade with it.

Anti-airing:

[w]5B makes for a great anti-air in this match-up, beats out Tager's j.2C

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

Char specific details:

Do you have to RC the throw? I get the same damage w/o RC'ing. And if you can DD you'll get 4669 k dmg. I like that!

[50-50罠]

Thank you Kiba for helping me with that. What is the follow up off of 6A Punish? Figure as much as, 6A>5C>JC>J.B>Moonlight>9D>... then what? It seems the standard 236.A combo works if your close to the corner. What about mid-screen though?

[Sahgren]

Thank you Kiba for helping me with that. What is the follow up off of 6A Punish? Figure as much as' date=' 6A>5C>JC>J.B>Moonlight>9D>... then what? It seems the standard 236.A combo works if your close to the corner. What about mid-screen though?[/quote']

For midscreen, you can either do:

CH 6A > 5C > sj.B > j.214B > 5/6D > j.236A > j.236B > j.4C > j.B > j.B > 5B > j.AAA > dj.D~C (Super jumping so that you're parallel/above them for the j.B is necessary for the j.236A to land)

or

CH 6A > 5C > j.D~A(AA) > j.236A > j.236B > j.4C > j.B > j.B > 5B > j.AAA > dj.D~C (less damage/corner carry, but uses less wolf meter).

If you do CH 6A > ... > j.214B > 9D > j.A(AA), the combo will knock them too high in the air and prorate too much for you to land [w]j.B > j.B > 5B, which gives up on a good bit of corner carry.

[50-50罠]

For midscreen, you can either do:

CH 6A > 5C > sj.B > j.214B > 5/6D > j.236A > j.236B > j.4C > j.B > j.B > 5B > j.AAA > dj.D~C (Super jumping so that you're parallel/above them for the j.B is necessary for the j.236A to land)

or

CH 6A > 5C > j.D~A(AA) > j.236A > j.236B > j.4C > j.B > j.B > 5B > j.AAA > dj.D~C (less damage/corner carry, but uses less wolf meter).

If you do CH 6A > ... > j.214B > 9D > j.A(AA), the combo will knock them too high in the air and prorate too much for you to land [w]j.B > j.B > 5B, which gives up on a good bit of corner carry.

Cool beans! I'm about to practice these right now.... which one do you guys normally do? More damage or less wolf meter usage? I'm always going for more dmg, but sometimes I think you might have to sacrifice...

[Sahgren]

Cool beans! I'm about to practice these right now.... which one do you guys normally do? More damage or less wolf meter usage? I'm always going for more dmg' date=' but sometimes I think you might have to sacrifice...[/quote']

I tend to use the sj.B > j.214B one, since it gives better corner carry. I generally only use the second when I'm low on wolf meter and aren't sure that I can afford the extra wolf meter used by the wolf cancel in the first.

[50-50罠]

I tend to use the sj.B > j.214B one, since it gives better corner carry. I generally only use the second when I'm low on wolf meter and aren't sure that I can afford the extra wolf meter used by the wolf cancel in the first.

Good looking out. That combo is sick!

[50-50罠]

Does it have to be 4C though? Or did you mean 4C~C? It seems like I don't get the 2nd j.B if I do 4C which make valk go away then downward toward Tager, but if I go 9C toward Tager I get the 2nd j.B, or if I just do C I get the 2nd j.B.

[Sahgren]

4C is the one that should make you go straight back, then at him, without any vertical movement. You can do 5/6C if you want, it's just that 4C uses less wolf meter.

[50-50罠]

Oh ok! My bad, my dumb ass was doing 7C. Thanks bro! I'm getting 2757 is that right? Just want to dbl check...

[50-50罠]

Ok so I was practicing some stuff against Tager. Did ya'll know you can 4BC>5RC and Tager will stay in front of Valk??? This is some super silly looking junk right here... lol