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GenoWhirl

[CS2] Valkenhayn Vs. Ragna

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Discuss the Valkenhayn vs. Ragna match-up here

Punishes:

5B:

I'd guess they'd try to go for a 5B to stuff you in which case you could try and use 6A if you're feeling godlike but I tend to opt out for 2B as it goes under his 5B and nets you a CH. Sadly though, you can't go CH2B>Rozen so if you have meter, you can opt out to do 2B>5C>Jager>RC>2C>etcetcetc follow up

Dead Spike:

6A guard point avoids Dead Spike from hitting Valkenhayn, close range 6A leds to a Counter Hit into a 5C hit-confirm and combo afterwards.

Instant blocking what comes before Dead Spike will leave Ragna open to a CH 5B punish.

Anti-airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

You just wanna out footsie Ragna. His defensive options are too strong to try and run a lot of Wolf mixup even if we can avoid it with 4/7C cause all he has to do wait and throw it late or just not throw it at all and back up. You'll wanna play just outside you max 5C range as that puts his 5C out of range as well. The hitbox on Ragna's 5C can actually rival that of Valk and Litchi so you do have to play a bit cautiously. But if you're just outside his 5C range you can hit him should he whiff. Also the reward for him hitting a max range 5C on CH is minimal without meter so the Risk of playing against it isn't too high. Valk gets CH5C>Rozen from any distance so Ragna is at a big disadvantage there.

If he gets in on you, be sharp and pay attention to pressure, IB'ing Ragna's pressure is very easy so any time you can react to him throwing a 2D or Dead Spike, do so accordingly. If you have meter, you can IB>Sturm through his 2D and if you catch Dead Spike, IB>SJ>D>3C>[W]j.B to punish it. Its possible to do it without the 3C or the super jump but its a bit harder.

I'd say this matchup is even. Both characters are very strong and have amazing normals. Its the battle of the footsies.

Char specific details:

Special Throw combo off of Back Throw(4BC):

Back Throw: 4BC>RC>Rozen>9D>[W]j.A>j.236A>j.236B>C>j.B>j.B>Land>5B>JC>D>[H]j.B>dj.B>dj.C (3022 Damage, 23 Heat gained back)

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Alternative thread title: Day one and I can't block new ragna pressure.

His DP is really bothersome. Most of my wolf cancels have been beaten by mashing 5A or DP, but I think I'm just doing it wrong.

All I know is that if I hear DEDDO SUPAIKU I should be able to jump back and evade primer loss, even after a 2C. If you IB what comes before Dead Spike you can hit him with a CH 5B into Rozen.

There is nothing you can do after a blocked 2D, right?

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Blocked 2D is safe w/ Ragna now. His 5A, 5B, and DP are horrendous problems for valk to overcome. It's pretty risky to try wake ups with him. Now w/ system changes and valk nerfs, his rushdown is a lot scarier.

I personally believed that this match up was even in CS1, now I'm thinking it's 5.5-4.5 Ragna. It's going to be very hard to keep him honest and not mashing unless you're zipping around in wolf

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Blocked 5D is safe w/ Ragna now.

Couldn't you use a reversal on Ragna if he does that? Ragna has limited options after 5D (Any special followup) all of which can be beat with Valk's reversal.

On a side note, I think 5C beats his options from a distance. In a case where you hit him with 5C CH followup with 236C into shiz.

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Couldn't you use a reversal on Ragna if he does that? Ragna has limited options after 5D (Any special followup) all of which can be beat with Valk's reversal.

On a side note, I think 5C beats his options from a distance. In a case where you hit him with 5C CH followup with 236C into shiz.

No as far as I can tell, the only viable option is to grab him if hes close enough as hes at about -2 When he dashes. But it still means hes at disadvantage so use that and try to stuff whatever he does next. I'd guess they'd try to go for a 5B to stuff you in which case you could try and use 6A if you're feeling godlike but I tend to opt out for 2B as it goes under his 5B and nets you a CH. Sadly though, you can't go CH2B>Rozen so if you have meter, you can opt out to do 2B>5C>Jager>RC>2C>etcetcetc follow up

You just wanna out footsie Ragna. His defensive options are too strong to try and run a lot of Wolf mixup even if we can avoid it with 4/7C cause all he has to do wait and throw it late or just not throw it at all and back up. You'll wanna play just outside you max 5C range as that puts his 5C out of range as well. The hitbox on Ragna's 5C can actually rival that of Valk and Litchi so you do have to play a bit cautiously. But if you're just outside his 5C range you can hit him should he whiff. Also the reward for him hitting a max range 5C on CH is minimal without meter so the Risk of playing against it isn't too high. Valk gets CH5C>Rozen from any distance so Ragna is at a big disadvantage there.

If he gets in on you, be sharp and pay attention to pressure, IB'ing Ragna's pressure is very easy so any time you can react to him throwing a 2D or Dead Spike, do so accordingly. If you have meter, you can IB>Sturm through his 2D and if you catch Dead Spike, IB>SJ>D>3C>[W]j.B to punish it. Its possible to do it without the 3C or the super jump but its a bit harder.

I'd say this matchup is even. Both characters are very strong and have amazing normals. Its the battle of the footsies.

EDIT: Turns out Ragna can get something for CH 5C if he does Dead Spike after but at max range thats pretty much all he can get without meter.

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Char. Specific Detail:

Special Throw combo off of Back Throw(4BC):

Back Throw: 4BC>RC>Rozen>9D>[W]j.A>j.236A>j.236B>C>j.B>j.B>Land>5B>JC>D>[H]j.B>dj.B>dj.C (3022 Damage, 23 Heat gained back)

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Sadly though, you can't go CH2B>Rozen so if you have meter, you can opt out to do 2B>5C>Jager>RC>2C>etcetcetc follow up.

You can combo 2B into 2C if you low profile under Ragna's 5B if you're close enough, which will allow you to 2B>2C>Rozen>etc. Just be mindful of how far away you are from your opponent when going for a 2B.

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I noticed the hardest thing to deal w/is the high-low mix-ups. Out footsie'ing Rag isn't to bad. As mentioned above if you can stand outside Rags 5B/5C range and punish the recovery w/ 5C>Rosen if CH, or try to fly in behind the normal with [w]C. The tide turns once you get Rag in the corner. The only option he seems to have is DP or Carnage Scissors out, and if you bait it, he's eating 3.5k or > for it. 4D dances out the way of Inferno Divider when you do it late enough and comes back just in time to D>2C. If I have RC stocked I just go for D>2C>JC>j.C>RC>j.C>3C>2C>6B>2C>6C>2C>JC.214B>j.A>j.B>j.B>j.C. At least thats one way I punish it. Normally I'm always trying to bait the ID before I follow up anything in the corner. I also look to bait burst while I'm doing my combos in the corner.

I try and maintain corner control on Rag. Mid screen I use Wolf, and stay out of hell fang distance to force a jump. If he sits longer than expected I fly and hope I don't eat a ID for it. If I get in normally I try a grab setup so I can toss him in the corner. Just somethings I kinda do to make the match up a little more fun...

I've been practicing punishing dead spike, but I cannot seem to get 6A to connect after. After IB his 5D I'm just out of range. The best punish I got so far is 5B>3C>Jager, or 5B>3C>Schwarz Jagd>Weiss Jagd. Does anyone have a good punish after IB 5D before deadspike? I noticed if you Barrier the string when Rag does 5C>5D the 1st part of 5D whiffs giving a window to CH w/Valk's 5C>Rosen. I think this might be a good way, but that's if they even do 5D in the blockstring. If they do it's possible to get a 3k+ combo and make Rag think twice about doing deadspike strings. I think this one is the best punish I've thought of.

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@ 50-50: just sturm dead spikes.

anyways, this is one of my personal worst match-ups buuuut, here's some advice:

Ragna's 5B is a move that moves Ragna forward a bit. As a result, it extends his hurtbox on start-up prior to his active frames.

Because of this, 6B(2) becomes a viable footsie option against Ragna.

Look at the hitbox of 6B(2): http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/valkenhayn/vh211_08.png

It's rather large and doesn't extend Valk's hurtbox much, while Ragna's 5B extends his hurtbox all the way forward. If you place a 6B just out of range of 5B (which is actually quite a large distance) and the Ragna tries to rush in with a 5B, you can score a fatal during the 6B(2) active frames into a huge damage combo anywhere on screen. Try this in training mode.

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