[CS2] Lambda vs Jin

[Starkaiser]

Now with gravity has no invul frame. I m pretty bad shape when Jin can get me into corner with his ice car which is extremely fast and flying out of most lambda drive range. (including 236D)

Normally I would try to punish a bad ice car users by block->dash->2A->3C into gravity combo. However a clever Jin users would bait it and counter with his big invul move. (I m not sure why Jin can cancel all of his bad move into invul move ending. Kind of cheating) When he does this often, it mean I can't punish back his ice car and always get push back into corner every time.

Another problem is that his 3C is longer than lambda 5C/6C, and his ice shooting is quicker than lamda 5D or 3D (far range). So Jin is definitely good at all range, and I m having a hard time to deal with clever Jin players.

I wonder if anybody can suggest me on how to fight a good Jin in CS2?

[zaeris]

when did ice car became a problem? if your issue is ice car have you try and learn to IB the B-D version? second alternative would be to bait ice car if he is doing it randomly meaning to turtle more if you must. Whiff random normals and see what he's doing.

[toanenadiz]

Jin can't cancel ice car into his DP. If he is doing that, then you aren't punishing ice car. Be faster with the dash 2A.

Jin's 3C has never been a problem for me but I would assume Lambda's 5D and 3C should easily take care of that.

And if he is spamming ice swords, you can just dash forward and CH 5D him out of the start-up. Or conversely, you can IAD and j2DD to punish the recovery of an ice sword.

[Starkaiser]

He never really spam anything. just do it clever like using ice sword when I m too far from him. (Instead of coming to me from very far. he can use this and to make me dash first) so Dash->5DD is not an option because it would open too much weak point to let him combo me. I know his ice sword purpose is always to lure me in first, since all my move lose him from furthest screen.(except 236D but that is too slow. and he will just jump and continue air ice sword... or the worst case he would just use ice car while I do 236D...)

his ice car come from time to time, but when I want to dash in and use 2A, he seem to be able to use invul attack first. So you are very sure that I could counter it if I m fast enough with dash right? If so, I will be more courage to try it next time.

Another problem is small ice car. should I guard this and be patient continue guarding his combo? or should I do something else?

[toanenadiz]

He never really spam anything. just do it clever like using ice sword when I m too far from him. (Instead of coming to me from very far. he can use this and to make me dash first) so Dash->5DD is not an option because it would open too much weak point to let him combo me. I know his ice sword purpose is always to lure me in first, since all my move lose him from furthest screen.(except 236D but that is too slow. and he will just jump and continue ice sword...)

his ice car come from time to time, but when I want to dash in and use 2A, he seem to be able to use invul attack first. So you are very sure that I could counter it if I m fast enough with dash right? If so, I will be more courage to try it next time.

Another problem is small ice car. should I guard this and be patient continue guarding his combo? or should I do something else?

If you know he is going to throw out an ice sword from full screen, I don't see how doing dash 5D to CH him is dangerous. You shouldn't auto pilot it but you should do it occasionally so he doesn't get to throw them out for free all the time. You just need make sure he is actually on the ground doing something after you dash. If he is in the air, use an AA instead. You shouldn't really be that scared to fight within Lambda's 5D range anyway.

He cannot cancel ice car into anything, barring an RC. And I haven't actually seen many Jins use A ice car in a blockstring so I can't really answer that. If you know it is the A version, you can just block and punish, but if you are unsure which version it is, you are better off just blocking it.

[Starkaiser]

Thank for suggestion. in close range. usually low version, and in distant usually high version.

But anyway, Jin can dash at you and still counter first with Fubuki? he did this to me so often. I 2A him when he is still dashing... but it turn out I get hit by fubuki(big) =_=

[Airk]

Even the A version of Ice Car is -7, which is punishable - barely - by a 5A if you're in range. The dashing might add enough overhead for it to be blockable or DPable though. B and D versions are -9, so with precision, those can be punished with 5B. C version is -12, but no Jin in their right mind is going to throw that out unless they know it'll hit.

Also, if your opponent is constantly hitting your punish attempts with a DP, what that really means is that he's gambling - he thinks you're going to go for the punish, so he goes for the DP. Wait for him to instead whiff the DP and you've got the punish of your choice.

[kenja0]

Thank for suggestion. in close range. usually low version, and in distant usually high version.

But anyway, Jin can dash at you and still counter first with Fubuki? he did this to me so often. I 2A him when he is still dashing... but it turn out I get hit by fubuki(big) =_=

Didn't Jin's DPs lose the lower hitboxes on them? I'm pretty sure you can 3C them (except Gale).

[Airk]

A and B DP do indeed no longer hit crouchers, though the B DP still has some invunerability frames that could make 3C miss if you hit it right away. If he's using the B DP (He's probably NOT using A, because if he's trying to hit you out of a punish, he's going to want some invulnerability) then you can just crouch under it and punish it afterwards. If he's using the C DP, which WILL hit crouchers, well, it has ENORMOUS recovery on block, so just block, get a cup of coffee, then punish.

[Starkaiser]

so I should have crouch to dodge it and wait for 3C when he down then? Isn't that usually make him go further away from me?

And for whatever reason, in most situation, when he use it, it seem that I didn't crouch in time, so I have to block it <,<;

[zaeris]

so I should have crouch to dodge it and wait for 3C when he down then? Isn't that usually make him go further away from me?

And for whatever reason, in most situation, when he use it, it seem that I didn't crouch in time, so I have to block it <,<;

I can probably came to some conclusion that you could be playing online which there puts lag on your blocking stance... In case people wonder match up talks doesn't apply to online. Or just yomi your way through everything.

[kenja0]

Depending on timing and positioning, Ice Car is quite punishable before it reaches someone: 6A, 5C, 2C, 5D, 6D, Gravity (whiff).

Ice Car is also punishable after it gets blocked by 5A. 2A and 3C have 8 and 11 frames of startup respectively.

[Airk]

so I should have crouch to dodge it and wait for 3C when he down then? Isn't that usually make him go further away from me?

And for whatever reason, in most situation, when he use it, it seem that I didn't crouch in time, so I have to block it <,<;

Erm, what are you talking about? No. Just BLOCK the ice car and punish it. You can 5A them all. If for whatever reason he KEEPS DPing you out of that (which really just means you're too slow) then don't 5A, and instead just 5C the recovery of whatever DP he does.

There's nothing fancy about this. This is like, Street Fighter 2 block-and-punish level stuff here.

[Starkaiser]

Could someone tell me the best combo that is easy for punish Ice car for good?

After a lot of practice, I finally met the same guy again and it seem that if I couldn't instant block, then I couldn't dash to 2A->3C-> gravity it.

Is there any confirm punish that doesn't need instant?

(5A doesn't have enough distant. if I m not instant block also)

[Fireryda]

learn the timing for the 2nd hit and dash 2a. it's guaranted after any blocked ice car. You don't need to IB at all. just react to the 2nd hit and block it, you have all of blockstun to buffer a dash 2a.

2a 3c gravity > 3k ?

They'll stop doing it fast.

theres nothing else to this. if you can't do it, go to training mode block ice cars and teach yourself to.

[someonewhodied]

I find that 6DD>236C>2DD>j.5DD>j.2DD>[j.214D~C>j.5DD>j.2DD>]dj.5DD>j.2DD>j.214D works for punishing ice cars.

And 4DD for punishing the C ice sword. (2DD>236B>RC>5DD[if midscreen] or 5CxN>6C [if corner]>236C>and then their respective comboes.

Of course I could be doing much more damage with other comboes, but online, the lag screws me up when I try some other comboes.

[Fireryda]

2d punishing ice swords?? Im not seeing how that would work. 6D is good if you're trying to predict ice cars but if it's already up, chances are unless they're doing it from full screen, 6d won't come out in time.

[someonewhodied]

I meant 4DD >.<

I'm failing so much this summer X_x

[Starkaiser]

If IB is not need then, cool, I will go to training mode to get this done tomorrow ><;

2A->3C->gravity combo for 3000 yes, that is what I like to do. But somehow yesterday when I played with him, he always be able to guard it unless I IB it in time (I wonder if lag effect this?)

For ice sword part.

4DD is slow on start up. I think clever Jin would usually use quick ice sword, because it is very safe for him to come after it. it nullify all kind of lambda projectile, and it reach you before you can 4DD or do 236DC to his back.

I try to dash a little bit into 5D distant today to beat his sword, but it seem any little move I do will cause him to run to me close-up very quickly. so it is either full-screen that I have to deal with his faster ice sword, or I have to play close-range game to him. He move as soon as I move any closer from the full screen.

[someonewhodied]

Well, any good jin I see uses all 3 speeds of ice sword. (Though C is normally a tell for a 632146C, making it so you need to block or barrier, not punish)

And when I play jin, I ALWAYS use only aerial Ice swords. Especially against Lambda. (Playing both characters makes me know exactly how to battle one with the other)

I know that Jin's 623s can be easily blocked and then you get a free 236D combo. (On Jin I use 236D>236B>6A>2C>j,5C(First Hit)>j.2C>2DD>214A>6A>Tk Crescent>5CxN>6C>236236D>4DD>236C>2DD>Air Ender)

The Air Hit effect of 236D makes for some interesting comboes against Jin and characters of similar hitboxes.

[Fireryda]

If jin does 236C on the ground. 236236D that shit.

236236D > 236d~c > (214d~c >) 236C > whatever. = Massive damage.

If he's doing other swords, just jump over them or duck if it's a slightly high j.236C

his 236C ground sword is really the only solid way for him to approach. Other versions, the sword will be way ahead of him so he can't really use it as a shield.

I know that Jin's 623s can be easily blocked and then you get a free 236D combo. (On Jin I use 236D>236B>6A>2C>j,5C(First Hit)>j.2C>2DD>214A>6A>Tk Crescent>5CxN>6C>236236D>4DD>236C>2DD>Air Ender)

What?

How do you even punish with a 236D. Nothing is that slow to get hit in recovery by that unless you yomi a tk sword or something.

blocked 623C is too close to be punished with 236D and what the hell is with that combo ? Instead of doing fancy stuff why not just 5c1(ch) > 236C or or 3c gravity or 4b.

[someonewhodied]

barrier blocked 623C leaves then in 236D range =)

And if you Barrier, you have enough time to get a 236D in... Of course, it could just be because of online lag.

[Starkaiser]

Pleaase help me how to deal with this Jin. I rarely beat him at all... around 1/10 nowadays... T_T

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6P4ftoA8c&feature=youtube_gdata

It would be good if anybody could point out specifically what I should have done at what time instead of what I did..

My guess is that he already learn my style..

[cookiehours]

Pleaase help me how to deal with this Jin. I rarely beat him at all... around 1/10 nowadays... T_T

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6P4ftoA8c&feature=youtube_gdata

It would be good if anybody could point out specifically what I should have done at what time instead of what I did..

My guess is that he already learn my style..

1. Need to tech those grabs (even though I suck balls with teching sometimes).

2. Not enough blocking.

3. I think you allowed him to corner you too easily.

I don't recognize that Jin but I can give you advice on what you did wrong.

[Starkaiser]

The problem is that double jump can go pass 6DD and 214D -> then my next attack would do 2DD -> but he still pass 2DD by air ice car when I did... so now I really don't know how to deal with him. Then the pressure just ate me more on that runs.. now I think lambda has really in disadvantage against Jin match up.

So basically he could pass my zone and come to me too quick, leave me at disadvantage..

as expectation of level 76 player ><

Btw, Do you have any suggestion of video that Lambda win Jin?

looked at the first page of video thread :

Vs.

Taimu vs. Eotoi

Inuo vs. 4

Stunedge vs. SIVAXS

Lambda lose to jin in all the vids.. just like what happen here, Jin get close-by very quick.