LK's GAMEPLAY RELATED QUESTIONS ONLY cs2

[Leonil_Requiem]

It... did? The only other large change I noticed was his Renka follow up damage was lowered, which is mitigated largely by the new kishu 6C combos, and Hotaru isn't broken stupid anymore.

So it's fair to argue his mid screen damage was reduced largely, but his corner damage is similar and more efficient concerning meter spent. Also, Tsubaki anywhere is massive corner push now, often confirming a corner combo even mid screen.

In a game where most (Non overpowered) characters have lower end mid screen damage, doesn't that just seem normal? Also, his hotaru can still be combo'd mid screen in many cases, in a reversal context.

EDIT: 3C being techable is a big nerf too.

Dacid, damage output isn't you max damage in a combo. it's how well you can consistently put out damage throughout a fight. Yes, hakumen can hit 8k in the corner with a couple of 6C follow ups. But since his meter gain is so slow, you'd honest only be able to do that twice in fight. :/

In this same aspect, this means that nothing he does is as efficient. things that were 6k and 4 meter or 7 k and 6 meter 2 star regain, first of all don't exist anymore, but if they did, they's be hardly obtainable. to get to 4 in 15 seconds, you have to let your opponent pressure you and IB a majority of his hits. :/

He's like johnny, great with the meter, but inconsistent depending on the execution of his user. I'd put him in a tier of his own above tager, but not as good as the rest of the cast. his character design is conflicting with the restictions this game placed on some character's damage because of his meter gain, which is conflicting with his win agenda.

[Sophisticat]

If that were the only problem Haku has, I wouldn't have dropped him for Valk. He's nerfed, you can't even run proper strategies with him since he's now so reliant on meter. His damage is there in the corner, but you have to get them there -- while conserving meter, dishing out low damage, and running poor and inconsistent pressure.

His execution also went up in a pretty wonky fashion if you ask me. CS1 execution was non-existent outside of max damage 5c x2/2c stuff. But now it's basically you have to finish your combo or you wasted meter, and combo paths to max efficiency/damage output are harder to pull off/more complex.

Essentially, CS2 Haku isn't Tager and you can definitely win with him if your fundamentals are strong, but he still sucks since his design is incompatible with how his current mechanics work.

[Dacidbro]

Dacid, damage output isn't you max damage in a combo. it's how well you can consistently put out damage throughout a fight. Yes, hakumen can hit 8k in the corner with a couple of 6C follow ups. But since his meter gain is so slow, you'd honest only be able to do that twice in fight. :/

In this same aspect, this means that nothing he does is as efficient. things that were 6k and 4 meter or 7 k and 6 meter 2 star regain, first of all don't exist anymore, but if they did, they's be hardly obtainable. to get to 4 in 15 seconds, you have to let your opponent pressure you and IB a majority of his hits. :/

He's like johnny, great with the meter, but inconsistent depending on the execution of his user. I'd put him in a tier of his own above tager, but not as good as the rest of the cast. his character design is conflicting with the restictions this game placed on some character's damage because of his meter gain, which is conflicting with his win agenda.

I know what damage output is, and I'm not talking about 8k theory combos or inefficient nonsense etc etc.

His 2A, if anywhere near the corner confirms to 4k using 3 meter and building back 2.

Empty Renka goes to something like 5 or 6 with kishu 6C, or probably 3.5 mid screen with kishu 2C.

3C counter hit is 2kish for no collective meter.

It's exaggerated how low his output is, primarily because most Hakumen players just don't know the new advanced BnBs.

Midscreen, it's moderately low, in the corner it's moderate to high.

I think to rate him as poorly as you do is a steep, steep exaggeration of how much he was nerfed.

And I do play Hakumen, he's one of my favorite characters in the cast because he plays like a street fighter character in a game of Blazblue characters. Makes for very interesting fights, sometimes people just can't deal with it.

In any case, he obviously struggles against some of the best characters, but so do most of the cast. I'd say he's mid to high B tier.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Dacidbro

[Lord Knight]

I'm not casting judgement on characters based on lack of knowledge.

Hakumen's damage is incosistent, to say the least. Hotaru is too weak and he doesn't get huge damage off counters. The risk/reward for it is just fucked now most of the time.

And for future reference, execution doesn't matter unless it's Bulleta sako infinite level or something.

[Dacidbro]

Fair points. New Yukikaze does help a lot in some of his more difficult matches too though.

I think it's just very easy to say he's probably not worse or better than somewhere in B tier and move on. He's a viable character, but doesn't have great answers to the risk/reward of top tiers, like most B tier characters.

[Skye]

Hakumen sucks.

[Fluck]

LK, what are the differences between staff and staffless Litchi? I know a few basic details such as the lack of a DP when staffless and somewhat lower range on her normals, but what are the general changes in her gameplay and her strengths/weaknesses between the two modes?

[Nini Heart]

LK how do you get back to your prime after 3 months of solely playing a different game?

[Lord Knight]

LK, what are the differences between staff and staffless Litchi? I know a few basic details such as the lack of a DP when staffless and somewhat lower range on her normals, but what are the general changes in her gameplay and her strengths/weaknesses between the two modes?

5C and 6C are completely different moves (compared to 5B, 2B, 2C, 6B simply having more range/a bit more start up). Staffless Litchi carries to the corner easier, but does less total damage. Her damage off random hits is higher than when she's holding the stick. She lacks a real reversal (has a ghetto one in Hatsu). Her pressure is much stronger and more varied. She essentially has a fullscreen projectile (launch) to compensate for her shorter range.

When she has the staff, she can zone with normals, or put down the stick at will, making her able to control the pace of a lot of matches. Her random damage is overall low unless you're near the corner or confirm certain hits. She also has amazing corner carry ability, as long as you can confirm well. Her damage output can be somewhat high. She has Tsubame to keep people from getting wild on her.

Generally, both modes can run rushdown or zoning/spacing type games. The "differences" between them don't matter - she is one character, and flowing in between the two modes easily is what matters the most.

LK how do you get back to your prime after 3 months of solely playing a different game?

You should try playing the game.

[Star-Demon]

I say don't be afraid to play staffless Litchi just because of no-DP - someone told me "hold onto the stick for dear life" and "remember gatling stuff" when CS2 came out (I also remember hearing "Star has to instant airdash now, he's screwed." although I wasn't sure what they were getting at.), and now look at the videos - Litchi looks fine, and there's even some really fascinating stuff out there. Some adjustments, some practice are needed, but she's still Litchi, although when I play CS2 I feel like I'll have to master CORNER RAEP or else I'm going to get trashed. That's not really a specific complaint against Litchi, though. It means I need more time playing CS2.

I'm having a big problem defending against Platinum's overheads and everything involving her May-like Heart Ride. In fact, a lot about platinum reminds me of May...Damn I want to play Guilty Gear again soon...

Edited July 17, 2011 by Star-Demon

[Dusk Thanatos]

Learning corner rape definitely isn't character-specific

Every chara needs to know how to corner rape if they can do it

[Mindgam3]

Dear LK,

What was that double gold-burst combo with Litchi that involved [m]6B in the corner?

Sincerely,

MiNdgam3

[Lord Knight]

6C[m] > iad gold burst > 6B[m] > gold burst > 4D > hatsu > riichiA > ippatsu > tanki hatsu > haku > hatsu > riichiA > j2B > air hatsu > land > haku > chun > 5b > jBCB > 6c(1) > 4kote > jBCB > dj jBCD > falling jC > 6C > Daisharin (whatever you want) > jHatsu > last hit of daisharin > kokushi

[zeth07]

I can't remember if I asked you this before or if someone else did, so I'm gonna ask anyway:

How do you feel about the Ground Tech system in BB? And what would you change about it if you thought it could be better?

Do you think giving BB a tech system like GG or SF would make it a better game almost by default due to a more real oki situation?

Like untechable knockdowns and a quick tech being the only options and not even being able to roll one way or the other or some other changes maybe to the roll system if you think rolling is ok in itself.

Some characters have moves that allow them to pretty much make Roll Teching impossible and almost force you into a blocking situation on oki. While others seem to have to guess what the opponent is going to do defensively instead of the offensive player actually being at a real "advantage" after a knockdown. This really annoys me because it just doesn't seem right.

I know some moves actually have "forced" neutral tech, but they can still choose to not tech at all. And the timing for when a combo "resets" off of a knockdown and them not teching just seems too long, when I can literally DASH toward them>2A and still have it Blue Beat the same combo even though I just dashed in half a screen away.

In my personal opinion I think this hurts the game somewhat, and if there was anything I would change in BB it would be the ground tech system.

What's your thoughts on this?

[Airk]

There's nothing wrong with the ground tech system in BB. The problem is twofold:

#1: Players feel entitled to oki. This is a street fighter mentality that needs breaking out of. The automatic assumption that strong oki makes a game better is far from universally true.

#2: The distribution of who has stronger oki in BB seems to have been determined by the "oops, that move can be used for oki" system. Now, to be clear, it's PERFECTLY FINE that some characters have better oki that others, in the same way that it's fine that some characters have invulnerable DPs, some characters get more damage from throws, some characters have better zoning, etc. The problem arises with the fact that Arksys doesn't seem to have thought about it. They give Makoto her sparkle ball and think "What a clever projectile we came up with!" without seeming to realize that it's a tremendous tool for locking people down in the corner on wakeup. Same thing with Litchi. But obviously you don't NEED to have "good" (quotes, because someone will come in and complain that all oki in BB is weak compared to Millia in GG, so heading that off at the pass. :P ) oki to be strong in this game - Hazama and Noel don't have particularly strong oki games, and it sure isn't holding them back.

I encourage everyone to take a step back from the preconceptions and actually consider oki as a game system, what it adds, what it takes away, and why. Think like a game designer!

[Mightfo]

They give Makoto her sparkle ball and think "What a clever projectile we came up with!" without seeming to realize that it's a tremendous tool for locking people down in the corner on wakeup. Same thing with Litchi.

i am pretty sure litchi's stuff and makoto's projectile were explicitly designed so that they can be used for oki

i really doubt that was an accident.

[Airk]

Then the question becomes "WTF were they thinking deliberately giving Makoto oki like that?" which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

I'd rather believe that they weren't thinking about it than believe that they intentionally made such a dumb decision, personally.

Either way though, the net result is that oki is distributed somewhat poorly in BB. Not egregiously so, because there are balanced characters like Litchi and Rachel who have it too, but...somewhat.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Airk

[Nakkiel]

Somewhat? Daisharin is probably uncontested as the best oki in the game and it's clearly deliberately implemented as an oki tool.

Giving Makoto the orb is almost clearly designed for oki. What were they thinking? Probably trying to give a way for their close-range boxer-type character to stay in once she gets in, since that is her weak point. Balance slip ups happen however and Makoto having that kind of oki is hardly where her imbalance comes from.

Edited July 20, 2011 by sG

[atdsutm]

so she is now imbalanced? like GGXX Johnny? MVC1 Gold War Machine/Red Venom?

in your opinion what makes her imbalanced?

Edited July 20, 2011 by atdsutm

[Dacidbro]

Yeah.. if every single hit didn't hit so hard and put you in the corner, Makoto's oki isn't unreasonable. It's just things like the jB jB DP relaunch that gives her more mid screen combo-ability that make her a bit 'nuts'

[huey253]

Yeah.. if every single hit didn't hit so hard and put you in the corner, Makoto's oki isn't unreasonable. It's just things like the jB jB DP relaunch that gives her more mid screen combo-ability that make her a bit 'nuts'

i see what you did there.

LK, how do you feel the current level of the top players in America (such as Dacidbro, CopperDabbit, Dsmoove, Omniscythe, 2GB Combo) compare to the japanese mid and top level players?

[atdsutm]

Zong not included?

[huey253]

Zong not included?

zong didn't really play CS2 at the time :3

[Dacidbro]

If I can personally say, I see myself as upper mid or low high (On a scale of low mid high top) japan, with many other players being better than myself in places like Washington, probably still Texas as well, and I certainly see LK and probably Zidane as better as well.

I still have a long way to go, without much time to improve, so it's difficult.

[atdsutm]

zong didn't really play CS2 at the time :3

it doesnt have to be CS2 only comparison though, I mean metagame shift doesnt mean player's skill would also shift dramatically