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Skankin Garbage

[VS] Gallon: The Wolf Man

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The only thing I'd say is, you don't really need to be using it. Since Talbain's more often-used air normals are his kicks, there's not really much of an opportunity for the air throw. I'm pretty sure it's possible to press towards+P in between air normals (as crazy as that sounds), but for the most part, just don't worry about it - it's damn near your only disadvantage in the air, so just work around it.

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Thanks, I appreciate the help.

I'm curious also about a couple of specific matchups. Currently, I face an Aulbath and a Felicia fairly often, but I'm having trouble figuring out what to do against them. I don't have access to double overheads against them, obviously. I have a few things locked down for each, but in general I'm curious what the strategies against them are. Anything at all would be appreciated. Most other characters I'm fine with or at least know what to do, but those two are giving me the most trouble. If I have any other questions though I'll post them up later.

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For starters, what do you mean by "double overheads"? If you're talking about dash links, you absolutely can use them on Rik and Felicia. Both conventional dash-links work on Rikuo (Mk, Lk and Lk, Lp), and Felicia can be hit by Lk, Lp in the corner.

Otherwise, how are they beating you? I'll give you a few things work knowing for both; but it'll be easier to assess your problems when I hear what you're trying, and how you're getting beat.

Here's a quick list of things I consider when fighting both.

Rikuo:

- Start with a neutral jump and hold back; your ground attacks are not going to beat his, and you can deal with any opener easily by responding to what he does.

- Jump towards Rikuo cautiously; Poison will hit you out of everything, and it will hit you a lot, even if you think your jump is going to clear it. Hint: it probably won't. Lots of neutral jumps when neither player has the offensive advantage.

- Watch for Rik players who try to play a 'ghetto ST Guile' sort of game. They will do a projectile, move in a bit, jump back to charge (as if it weren't painfully obvious), and then throw another projectile immediately after hitting the ground. If you notice a Rik doing this pattern, just hit them with a full-screen ES Beast Cannon; they've earned it.

- Rikuo doesn't have the most fantastic Guard Cancel around, so you can bully him, especially if the Rikuo player doesn't AG very often. If you get good at mixing dash links into your ground rush, you can really take it to him.

- Spacing-wise, your goal is to stay in the middle of the playfield; this match is technically in Rik's favor because Talbain has virtually no options for getting out of Bubble Traps. So, if you get knocked down, use it to your advantage and put yourself as far away from a corner as possible with your roll.

- Your options for dealing with Bubble Trap: Guard Cancel (if they follow the Bubble with a dash attack), Roll forward INTO the Bubble (if they are not waiting to see how you react, they'll probably hit you out of it on accident). You can also jump up and either attack/Chicken Guard and counter (if he jumps towards you with an attack), ES BC - 3 8 6 ? ? (for if they wait on the ground to AA/AG you back into the Bubble). If Rik follows the Bubble up with a dash attack, you could theoretically Dark Force and P Throw him before your invulnerability runs out too, but that is kind of a big risk. Still, it would set up your Dark Force unblockable gloriously. I may test this, heh.

Felicia:

- Your jump is going to get owned. Felicia is one of the only characters in VS that has a definitive, easy answer for Talbain's jump-ins (her C.Mp can beat all your jump attacks, although she has to time it well). On top of that, if she meets you mid-air, her J.Hp is likely to beat your attack or initiate a throw if you try and Chicken Guard. Both of her supers can work as anti-air, and using her Dark Force to evade and counter your jump-in is a very fortuitous setup for her. So, choose your jumps carefully.

- If you jump in on Felicia, you will have to choose between two options: J.Lk, or Air BC. The main difference here is that you're altering the timing on your attacks to get past her AA.

- In terms of spacing, you want to get fairly close to Felicia in neutral situations. This makes it so that you can easily anti-air her attacks. This puts you at a fair amount of risk on the ground, as you can easily put yourself in her sweep range by positioning yourself that close. Thus, you want to do occasional TK Beast Cannons, too. Err on the side of being slightly too far away to AA than being slightly too close; you can always AG her jump-ins, which still takes the wind out of her rush. The worst thing to do is simply block her AA, though; as that's more-or-less the best possible situation for her.

- Your Guard Cancel is quite effective on Felicia, especially against novice/intermediate players who don't incorporate overheads into her rushdown. If this is the case, let her have it. Also, be sure to look for patterns where you can be certain a ground attack will come next. For example, many Felicia players like to continue attacking with normals after a blocked Cat Spike. Look for this habit and punish accordingly.

- While it's true that keeping your attack strings short during your rushdown is effective against all characters, it can be really powerful against Felicia players who like to Guard Cancel. Her Guard Cancel can either shut down your rush hardcore, or be a huge opening in her defenses; it all depends on how you use your pressure strings. Keep 'em short, and stick to light attacks and overheads until you have a hit-confirm.

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By double overheads I meant jump-in double overheads.

And mostly they were beating me because I just didn't know what to do and I'd get pushed into the corner a lot where they'd execute their corner plan. This happened because for one I'm still kind of bad at tech hitting/defense in general, which is something I need to work on, and two because I just had no idea what they were doing/what to do against them. Now that I have a gameplan and I can see better what it is exactly they're doing I should do better, which I did actually, the couple times I've played them.

Thanks again for all this. After I get some more rounds in against each of them I should be able to refine my questions about them more if I have any.

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I don't know exactly...but, based on the fact that you can get Jabbed out of it, SRK'd out of it, Big Towers'd out of it, Death Voltage'd out of it, DI/LI'd out of it, or combo'd as you land into a DI/LI/Moment Slice/Tenraiha/BB Hood Infinite/Dancing Flash/either of Rapter's EX moves...I'd say, there's enough frames of disadvantage that you don't really wanna dick around. This isn't even considering the fact that it's virtually GC bait if you're predictable with it, either. BC and ES BC aren't half as safe as they appear to be.

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I remember you telling me I need to work on making my game just a bit more safe, because you mentioned a lot of Talbain's moves aren't as safe as they appear to be, like you are now, but when I fight you I notice you do some BCs into command throw or for other purposes. Is it just something you do if someone isn't punishing them properly (like me)? Or is it just another part of the mixup game? Or both?

Also, on that note, I remember in our first set of matches, however long ago that was, after you knocked me down in the corner you would do a dragon punch bc and it would cross me up, but I tried it in practice a few times after that and it never seemed to work. Do you have to do it in certain situations or is there something else I'm missing?

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It's a bit of both. If someone doesn't (or won't) keep Talbain honest, you can get away with a lot of outrageous stuff, and unsafe BCs are the biggest one. The truth of the matter is that a lot of people are just too scared to try and punish Talbain, so it's not hard against most players to do sketchy crap. At the same time, BC mixups are a really important part of playing Talbain's game, so you do have to do some things. Know what's safe, know what's not, and take calculated risks. I might post a more in-depth explanation of mixups, mind games, and uses for BC in the future.

I'm trying to think of what you're talking about with this Dragon Punch BC crossup. You should let me know if you ever see me do it again, heh.

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From what I can remember you'd knock me down in the corner, then, while I was waking up, you'd do the dragon punch BC so you'd actually end up behind me in the corner and get a hit because I'd be blocking in the wrong direction. Maybe it's when I was rolling backwards a lot? Or is it a GGPO only thing?

Also, some in-depth notes on BC mixups, use, etc. would be great whenever you get the time.

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I can't remember doing something like that specifically to cross them up. There are two things I'm thinking of when you describe this:

1. If I'm in the air, and I do a 3 BC (that is, diagonally down-towards), it will sometimes completely miss, fly over my opponent, and push them out of the corner, putting me in the corner.

2. Sometimes, when people roll towards me, I like to do 6 (cross over their rolling body), 4 (a bit late, intentionally leaving them enough time to get caught in an AG trap).

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Hm...maybe the air BC was it, though I remember it being from the ground up. I could be wrong though. Like you said, if you ever do it again I'll let you know. Might be something worth trying out anyway.

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How do you combo using short hops? On the wiki, under Gallon's dash link combos, it shows the characters that can only be hit by short hops, but I've tried doing dash links with short hops and I only get one attack out. Is the idea not to dash link on shorter characters but just combo one dash attack into a ground chain?

Also, what are the chain combos you recommend after a dash attack/link?

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How do you combo using short hops? On the wiki, under Gallon's dash link combos, it shows the characters that can only be hit by short hops, but I've tried doing dash links with short hops and I only get one attack out. Is the idea not to dash link on shorter characters but just combo one dash attack into a ground chain?

Also, what are the chain combos you recommend after a dash attack/link?

I can reply w/ some of your answers.

1. 66-j.lk, LINK j.lp, LAND, cr.lk into whatever. If your second move is not comign out, it's because you're doing the first one too late.

2. Against the short crouchers (Bulleta, Bee, Dog, Morrigan & Lilith), the idea is to 66-J.HP as this hit's behind him and can setup a very ambiguous cross-up. (Sasquatch also does this with 66-j.hk.) Combo/tick/confirm off this attack

3. ...(Skankin?)

Nice avatar.

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If you're doing Short Hops - that is, trying to manually cancel your dash - AND do Dash Links at the same time, that's never gonna work. If you do a Short Hop, you're doing it to combo a single dashing attack into a ground chain. A Dash Link implies that the entire dash runs its course. To do a dash link properly, you have to execute the first dash attack immediately after starting the dash.

That's the reason I've listed which dash links work on which characters; if you try and do a Dash Link on a short character, the first attack will just fly right over them, making it useless. Also, as stated above, you can't Short Hop AND Dash Link, because you barely even have enough time to throw out one normal after manually canceling your dash. Thus, use Short Hop J.Lp on shorties, cos it's much easier to cross them up than it is to cross up other characters.

As for what combos, there's a few things you could do:

- C.Lp -> C.Lk -> C.Mp -> C.Mk: This is one of the most damaging combos you can do after landing from a dash, and if they're a tall character, it sets up the spacing perfectly for the D.Mk, D.Lk Dash Link.

- C.Lp -> C.Lk - C.Hk: You'll eventually get a feel for whether or not you're in range to do the first chain, and when you're not, this might be a better chain to go for.

- C.Lp -> C.Mp: This one is ideal if you Short Hop with D.Mk, because you won't be in range to do the other chains. If you are...you should have Short Hopped with D.Lk.

- C.Lp -> S.Mk -> S.Hp: This is technically the highest-damage chain that will always be in range after a D.Lk; but, it whiffs certain characters when crouching, and is just awkward to do in general.

- C.Lp XX ES Beast Cannon: I wouldn't do this, mainly because the damage scaling will be so terrible on this...especially after a Dash Link. You've simply done too many hits by this time.

- C.Lp XX Moment Slice: ...Good luck.

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Hey Skankin, if you don't mind, could you comment on some of my recent matches? I want to know what I'm missing or some help in the match ups I post. What's good about my game, bad, what I could be doing instead of something you saw. I do not have GGPO, so all of my exp playing VSAV comes from training mode, match vids and playing offline casuals on PS2.

Ran it back after the tourney...I was salty.

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Hey, man. Sorry it took so long; I just wanted to be as thorough as possible.

A. Hard Bread vs. Rithli

- 0:18: I know that Climb Razor is the fastest way to build meter; however, most characters in this game can provide a reasonable threat from near full-screen, and Jedah is no exception. Stick do using empty J.Mk, J.Hk because if things look like trouble during your J.Mk, you've got a lot of time to replace that J.Hk with something else that might suit the situation better.

- 0:21: Careful against Jedah's glide. This is Jedah's main method of killing you...or really anybody, I'd bet. It's his easiest way to get a knockdown, and if Jedah can knock you down, you're in a LOT of trouble.

- 0:29: I'm interested to know what you were trying as Jedah was getting up?

- 0:33: You probably know this now, but pay a lot of attention to your spacing if you're gonna jump in against Jedah. You really have to get good at mixing it up between a normal jump-in and a kara-BC from far ranges like the one at this spot in the vid where you got pegged. This happens to you a few times, so learn this lesson well.

- 0:35: Be wary of trying to stick moves out in-between Jedah's block strings; Normal xx ES Wheel is a brutal frame trap if you're hit, but is AG-bait - and your ticket out of trouble - if blocked.

- 1:52: If you're looking for a go-to combo when activating Dark Force, try C.Lp, C.Mk XX Beast Cannon 66 (deactivate).

- 2:46: This was really nice pressure you were putting on Rithli. Be sure to gauge what your opponent is doing, though; this was the perfect time for a Dash combo. Also, from farther ranges like where you did the C.Mk XX Beast Cannon, try an ES version, as it might have been fast enough to punish Rithli's jab in its startup frames.

- 3:23: If you wanna get that final hit on your ES BC, try ending with 1 (3 if you were on the other side) rather than 2 (so, 4 7 2 8 1).

- 4:53: I wanted to give special attention to the way you tried to sweep on wakeup. That's a very good idea, and I rarely see Talbain players do this. Even though it didn't work, don't give that up!

General notes vs. Jedah:

- When jumping forward near Jedah, be mindful not to rise with J.Mk, as it will hit Jedah and leave you floating in the air, defenseless. Try to remember to use J.Mp as you rise instead.

- Jedah can stuff early jump-in attempts with his S.Mp...just, in general, be careful jumping in against a good Jedah; he can handle Talbain's jumps better than most people realize.

B. Hard Bread vs. Apollo, Part 1:

- 0:23: When you come down and whiff an attack, you should try a command throw. In fact, you should really try feigning a jump-in into command throw more often; Talbain's command throw is extremely fast and has a lot of invincible frames.

- 3:41: That drill is really hard to punish with a ground combo; I suggest reseting Rapter with a S.Lp and just going from there.

- 3:50: I don't know if you tried to do this; but, if you're gonna try and AA BC someone in the corner, try 9 1 8 4 8. This is a good one to know in general, as it's the standard sequence for Guard Cancels.

Hard Bread vs. Apollo, Part 2:

- 0:37: Crossover BC on wakeup isn't as effective against IAD characters...simply because people who play them tend to jump right away. So, when you do a 6 4 crossover, you gotta hit 4 as quick as possible. This is generally true if you want to land this anyways, but keep in mind that it's a really unsafe maneuver - a smart player will just block it every time and punish. Use this trick to keep people honest.

- 0:50: It may not be relevant in this situation, cos you got blocked anyways...But, this is the main reason I don't try walk-forward ES BCs. You have to change your sequence depending on whether or not you get the Horizontal or Diagonal BC, and it's generally too fast to hit-confirm the sequence. If you simply must do it, I would start doing the BC motion as if it were a HCF motion to eliminate any chance of getting a Diagonal.

- 0:53: Early J.Lk can beat this move, instead of trading in Rapter's favor...big time.

- 1:28: I can't fault you for doing this combo, since I think Climb Razor is probably Talbain's most meter-efficient move in terms of Red Damage vs. White Damage and reliability...but, just be careful. It sucks to have an ES Climb Razor blocked or whiffed. Like, a lot.

- 4:07: Just like the 6 4 crossover, be careful doing 6 6/9/8. This is a risky move if blocked, and you don't want to take big risks if you corner your opponent - you're cornering them so THEY can take huge risks!

- 5:22: 6 8 9 9 3. Say it one-hundred times, then go practice it one-hundred times. 6 9 whiffs Rapter and Demi; 6 8 8 whiffs Lilith. 2 Whiffs almost everyone. Thus, your corner sequence, now and forever, is 6 8 9 9 3.

- 5:56: ...Lol!

General notes vs. L.Rapter:

- You can't just go balls out on Rapter. His air dash pretty much gives him the advantage in neutral situations. If you jump in and whiff, you're eating an air dash combo. If you jump in and get chicken guarded, you're eating a free air dash combo. If he jumps at you at the same time and does J.Hk, he's gonna get the rest almost every time, and then you're flipping a coin with 30% of your life plus a knockdown.

At the beginning of the fight, move back (I try to dash back almost every time), and be ready to do an AA BC as soon as he commits to a dash. Obviously, you can't sit on the floor like a jackass and wait, or else he'll know exactly what you're doing. Do whatever you can to disguise the fact that you're waiting for his full-screen air dash. Also, learn to trust your S.Lp as an anti-air against IADs from all characters that can do so - not just Rapter. Once you get the knockdown or a reset, THEN you go in and do your thing.

Get very used to this - no disrespect to Apollo, but a better Rapter would have torn your face off for trying to rush the way you did. And, once he figures a few things out, you're gonna be in serious trouble if you haven't leveled up.

C. Hard Bread vs. More4YourBuck:

- I have no specific notes.

General notes vs. Q-Bee:

- When you land from an attack and she's in the air...stand up and block. Learn this, and you will be extremely powerful. A lot of people never learn this. In fact, it's something that you can apply as Talbain, too: try doing a dash attack right after a chain like C.Lp -> C.Lk -> C.Mp -> C.Mk. A lot of people don't do the smart thing and try and hit you out of your dash; they either jump back (potentially dangerous), or crouch block after getting hit by the chain (100% bad all the time, since you've already pushed yourself out of range for anything else BUT a dash attack or a BC which can be blocked standing). People do the same thing if you land a max range jump attack. You'll be too far out of range to hit with anything low, but they'll block low anyways. Abuse this...and more importantly, versus characters that can do instant overheads of any kind...don't get abused!

- Don't AG too much against Q-Bee, especially on her ground pressure. Just focus on blocking until you see a clear moment to riposte or escape. If the Bee player is being really predictible, or you're sure you know what they're gonna do next, THEN you can AG. This is generally good advice against all high/low characters (Jedah, Rapter, Bee, Sas, Hsien, Morrigan).

- Q-Bee players, after being reset in the air, tend to hold down-back. The smarter ones try to AG. The REALLY smart ones AG and mix in her command throw, since it's by far the most powerful one in the game in terms of priority. You won't fight a lot of REALLY smart Q-Bee players, though, so respond to their blocking/AG in kind by just running your HK Throw Option Select all day on them.

The best thing is, if they wise up, you can still beat their command throw by doing a meaty low. If you find yourself getting hit by a command throw when trying this, give them a few meaty C.Hk's and see how they respond.

- Let me tell you a story about wakeup versus Q-Bee:

I once had the honor of playing some games on GGPO versus OraOra, aka OraQ, one of the best Q-Bee players in the world. The first time I played him, he beat the shit out of me. The second time I played him - the very next day - after I took some notes and did some homework...well, he still won more games than I did, but I didn't get laid flat, either. Now, OraOra was (and probably still is) a better player than me, so how did instantly make such a remarkable turnover?

Simple. Q-Bee players just can't stop jumping back on wakeup. They don't do it every time, but even the best Bee players are going to try it.

The moral of the story: Diagonal BC, or MAX RANGE C.Hp -> C.Hk for wakeup. Do this until they stop jumping all day. If that time never comes, you can win almost entirely on this. If they finally stop jumping, THEN you can try your normal wakeup game. Until then, though...

D. General notes for Hard Bread:

1. Try and learn to anticipate being chicken-guarded. I see a lot of times when you jump in, your J.Mk will be blocked, and you'll follow up with nothing. The instant your rising J.Mk becomes a habit with no thought behind it, you have a huge problem on your hands. Try becoming more conscious of this, so you can possibly do longer air chains (like, starting on MP for example). If you have a specific reason you want to rise with J.Mk, start running an Option Select where you immediately hit J.Hp afterwards, too. If the J.Mk connects, you'll start an air chain. Otherwise, you won't get a J.Hp and you're free to continue with whatever move you please.

Finally, doing J.Mk xx Air BC can effectively punish people for trying to chicken guard you as well, by countering their chicken guard with a knockdown. It's not always fast enough to beat their attack; but, if it's not, then you gained a little meter, and you'll be a bit farther away than before, since the beginning of Talbain's BC stops his forward momentum.

2. When you're playing shorter characters like Rapter and Bee, you've got to break your bad habit of falling from the air with only J.Hp and J.Hk. In fact, it's a worthwhile endeavor to break that habit against the entire cast. Specifically, there needs to be a lot more J.Lk in your repertoire. It has possibly the best priority of all Talbain's jumping attacks, and it's one of the most beastly crossups in the whole game.

3. I wouldn't go for C.Mk xx ES Beast Cannon every single opportunity you get. For one, it's not so easy to hit-confirm. For two, if it's blocked, it's total GC Bait against anyone with the balls to go for it. For three, if it's blocked, you've removed most of the pressure you've put on your opponent. For four, the more you do other stuff like mix up your high/low/throws, the more damage you're likely to do. And finally, throwing the ES BC into your block strings can be a frame trap if done from farther distances. Doing a jump-in into C.Mk XX ES BC has its place when you know for sure it's gonna land. Also, consider the opponent's health when doing that combo, too; if you can kill them without the meter, why use it?

4. Just so you know, the ES Wild Circular only does about a jab's worth of additional damage, does not start quicker, and has no additional frames of invulnerability. It's best to save that meter for something else. Wild Circular, however, totally rules. Do at least ten in a match. Maybe twenty.

5. Picking Dark Talbain is not as good as regular Talbain, as his low health damage scaling defense bonus doesn't come into effect as early as regular Talbain's. The Dragon Cannon may look more beastly, but the hitbox is actually the exact same. Let's apply this advice to all of your videos :P

6. Your game is going to suffer greatly if the only thing you do is jump, land, and Beast Cannon. It's absolutely imperative that you incorporate command throw into your game, as well as dashes. Work on comboing into a dash, and work on your dash links. For example, I see you cornering people a lot, but you don't do much besides neutral J.Hp and hope for a combo. Your ground combos get AG'd a lot, too. This is a perfect time to apply pressure, do some frame traps, dash-in, do an empty jump into command throw (the trick is to make it look like you're not going for an empty jump; be sure to whiff some attacks while you're at it).

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Once again, thanks for the In depth criticism. Regarding what I did at 0:29 against Rithli now that I look back at it I have no idea what the hell I was doing, that looked silly. Rithli is really good at spacing me out and reading my jump-ins so later that night in casuals I took a more grounded approach and worked on my footsies and neutral game; i seemed to have a better chance at beating him on the ground than just jumping constantly because when I did jump he didn't expect it. I was getting blown up by the glide a lot, I guess I should just chicken guard that then counter or just block.

I use climb razor a lot, :sweatdrop:...it's a funny habit I have but I'm trying to stop using it as much as I do; I also have the problem of doing razor climb when I'm trying to go for circular in the heat of battle.

I'll try out j.LK/MP like you suggested. Also thanks for the BC patterns, I'll practice those as well. The st.LP tip for air dashers I pretty much learned to incorporate that into my game more after more casuals after the tourney against all 3 of those characters, thanks for pointing that out. I'll take heed to that warning about the zombie matchup in general as well.

Thanks for all the tips in general, I'll frequently re-read, practice and test out your suggestions. Tourney coming up on Saturday, I'll see what I can do to try and take it with all of this info.

Edit: I didn't know that bit about Dark Gallon. Thanks for that bit of info as well.

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Also, what are the chain combos you recommend after a dash attack/link?

It's a "short" dash e.g. 66[2]

66[2] j.lk, j.lp v cr.lk > st.mp xx SlashSuper

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Hard Bread,

I happened to be looking back over Skankin's advice and your videos. I noticed toward the end of your last match with Rithli he was throwing out a lot of wheels, especially mid-wheels, and you had 5 bars of meter to work with but weren't using them. Try some ES BCs next time. You can even start to time when they're gonna throw the wheels out if they're throwing a lot out like that and get the full five cannon punish, and have nothing to worry about if they keep throwing out mid-to high-wheels, especially if you're planning on staying mostly grounded anyway. It'll make them more cautious to throw out the wheels and you can work more of your air game.

EDIT: ES BC is has lots and lots of applications: as a punisher, a crossup, a mixup, a means of escape, as an unblockable, etc. You shouldn't come to rely on it, but when the situation calls for it, use it, and make them hurt.

Another example would be baiting and punishing Demitri's spin move, or punishing Hsien-Ko when she throws a mid projectile. You can even use it to punish a Jedah who keeps trying to get you in his swipe (not sure if from the air too but I'd be this works also). All in all it's a great move.

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