[VS] Engine Stratagems "Everyone can do ... except Anak :-("

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For now, I'm c&p'ing some older, yet still applicable things i've written. there are a couple topics I will write about that alot've new players are overlooking.

Also, please excuse my old-man notation. i'm still lingering from an age before numbered notation >.>,

the breakdown of teching(pushblocking)

~courtesy of magnetomaniac

hmm...well i think i went into detail two different times but i'll explain myself as much as possible to get this question out of the way for future references.

to perform AG (advance guard), you must press 3-6 buttons during a 12 frame blockstun (single hit). 12 frames is the minimal any move hits in the game. when a move says +3, that is the advantage given to _____ character AFTER all the frames it took for it to come out, hit, and retract. so do not get confused by this.

depending on when it decides to actually perform the AG is random. there is a percentage you can do to increase it, and if you do the hardest you can ensure that it will come out. but i only know one person in japan that can actually use 6, so it is extremely hard. not to mention, on GGPO it makes it even harder (trust me, it makes a HUGE difference). the average player on GGPO only goes to 4. at the arcade, japanese players go up to 5.

now with some of that explained, here are the ratio percentages, as generated by skankin garbage and his associate:

You have a 0/32 chance (0%) of AG'ing on the first and second inputs.

You have a 8/32 chance (25%) of AG'ing on the third input.

You have a 12/32 chance (37.5%) of AG'ing on the fourth input.

You have a 9/32 chance of (28.125%) AG'ing on the fifth input.

You have a 3/32 chance of (9.375%)AG'ing on the sixth input.

These represent the independent probablility of teching at those number of inputs in relation to other varied numbers of inputs.

The cumulatively probability of teching dependent on the inputs made looks like this:

You have a 0/32 chance (0%) of AG'ing on the first and second inputs.

You have a 8/32 chance (25%) of AG'ing up to the third input.

You have a 20/32 chance (62.5%) of AG'ing up to the fourth input.

You have a 29/32 chance of (90.625%) AG'ing up to the fifth input.

You have a 32/32 chance of (100%)AG'ing up to the sixth input.

now, the strength of the button it decides to land on (IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE LAST BUTTON YOU PRESS, IT CAN BE IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR SEQUENCE) is how far the opponent will get pushed back. weak punch and kick only push the opponent about 1 and 1/2 character spaces in front of you. strong is around mid screen with your corner backed to the wall, and the strong versions push them around 3/4 of the screen.

the most typical way of performing AG's and preferred by most stick players is this. LK LP MP HP (HK). the HK is in parenthesis because it is not typical to go to 5 buttons online, but it is optional if you are at that level. i know this will definitely feel weird drumming the reverse way, coming from 3s i usually drum right to left. but, this is fact very very useful. if you are downblocking, you will get a short if they did nothing. you can also tech throws with this method of AG. and if they try and jump, the average short will recover enough until you can block again. personally, i do this by thumb on lk, index on lp, middle on mp, and ring on HP and slide to HK.

another method is scraping across left to right, then right to left once. this is best done with a glove, and if not you can use your knuckle closest to your fingertips. pretty self explanatory. 3 hits across, 3 hits back. you have to be good and this way is pretty energy-consuming.

another is LK MP HP HK. the problem with this is that it only goes to 4. but 4 isn't a bad number at all, it is very good if you can get 4. so with that said if this way works best for you, by all means use it. flick your wrist in a clockwise motion for the best effect. from LK MP HP then slide from HP to HK. personally, i do index on LK, middle on MP, ring for HP and slide to HK.

the last method that i know of is using MP MK HP HK. first, straighten your index and middle finger out. the middle knuckle of both fingers will be pressing MK and HK. the tip of your fingers will be pressing MP and HP. start with your index, slide with your knuckle to MK. then do the same with your middle finger. if you want more inputs for tech block, you can use your index finger to go back up from MK to MP again for a full 6 inputs. the only drawback to using this method is that if you whiff, you will whiff a MP. that can be good or not good depending on your character.

chicken guard

most pple here know chicken guard is jumping at the opponent, and blocking. in VS, the jumps are quite flexible, so you can chicken guard an attack, and if theres sufficient space between that first hit you blocked and the next one coming(i.e. lei lei's j.hp, which doesnt give you much time as opposed to random air chain by qbee) you can cancel the (air)block stun, and hit them w/ something... OR, if they've stopped all together(i.e. air blocking victors bigass head), characters w/ an air dash *coughqbeecough* STILL have the option to airdash & retaliate. VERY handy. Countered by being thrown of course, and fast airchain I think.

empty air chaining

empty air chaining... I really dont know what to call it, so I'm gunna call it this till some1 gives me a proper term. I dont see many other fighters that can use it the way this game does. Its basically, jumping and doing an early move i.e. talbain's j.mk. as the j.mk ends(even if you wiff), you throw a j.hp/j.rk on. So essentially, you have some attack out for most of your jump. Also, if the second hit hits, its more than likely going to be a deep hit; allowing for a followed up ground combo. for some characters, this becomes a useful added method for them to build meter when not much is happening(i.e. aubath)

**I cant stress enough how important empty chaining is.

instant air dashing

Instant air dashing (iad) is just as it says, dashing so that you're skirting the ground. Tho, not all characters have an air dash to utilized(i.e. felicia, lilith), and not all of the ones who do can utilize it(mainly jedah).

a dash is inputted by two consectutive forward motions.

-Up/toward->toward

this is the most obvious shortcut. very efficient when done correctly consistently.. what sux tho, is that its hard as fuck to iad on an american stick... The vampire engine is really bitchy w/ the "forward" inputs. Doing the inputs quickly is going against what seems to be a natural habit/motion of the hands(from what i've seen). b-izm remedies this with an up/toward->down/toward motion.(vid to be accessible soon). tho, this is still more jap-stick based... this is all i can give as far as iading goes... if none of these methods work, stick with up, toward, toward. ghetto, and not nearly as fast as iading

lei lei, zabel, qbee, jedah*

*jedah's iad is useful via iad->fireball, significantly cutting the recovery on the blade... otherwise, dont be too reliant on it for rtsd.

offensive ground dashing

Theres two different types of offensive ground dashing(ogd's..i'm makin acronyms up on the fly): ground ogd's, and air ogd's.

just about all ground dashes add to the momentum of your rtsd(rushing that shit down)[there are a couple of exemptions]. Implementing them is character specific of course, but just about every character looks to either

a. apply pressure

b. connect a ground combo off of a dashed hit

its so simpo(<--stolen, I just forgot where from)

There are exceptions though:

-Leilei's teleport ground dash has a somewhat obvious & significant startup. Going into dash->throw is viable, but leilei maintains more momentum with an iad or just simple walking.

-Demitri's dash is much like lei lei's(a teleport)... But, since(from the assorted vids I've watched) demitri wasnt designed for the rtsd shit that other characters were capable of, his dash serves more as a means of use for running away, horizontal uppercut setups/combos(ya, its comboable), random unblockable super setups(risky imo tho... but doable).

-Victor. I'm still somewhat unsure of whether or not he fits the "out of the ordinary" category. b/c he's the cast's main grappler:)p to sasquatch), his dash allows for throw setups in addition to getting in the opponents face.

Many of the characters w/ ground ogd's can just use normals(w/ little recovery) and rtsd.

Following characters with ground ogd's:

-lilith

-bbhood

-aubath

-bishamon(forward dash)

-qbee

-victor

-zabel

-anakaris

-lei lei

-demitri

-*pyron

-*phobos

-*donovan

*not really from vampire savior but still applicable(ya, I know they're in the home versions).

Air ogd's will actually propel the character into the air, giving the character the ability too add quick overheads to their rtds mixup. this leads to some crazy shit from some characters(i.e. sas). Theres also two types of air ogd characters. most of them do a hop that propels them, Jedah and Morrigan outright fly(ya, common knowledge to all of you likely, but w/e.. i might as well sight(cite?) every tidbit)

Air ogd characters:

-felicia

-Sasquatch

-gallon/talbain

-Bishamon(backward dash)

-*Morrigan

-*Jedah

* a nice thing to remember w/ these characters is not to dash for too long. they both lose the ability to block once they get too high, they're likely just a flying target(think xism) Also, a unique property about each of them is that jedah can air dash once he's airborn, & morrigan has 4 different versions of her ground dash(forward, back, upforward, & backforward).

Another thing to note about the hopping characters(except bishamon) is that they each have a shortened dash by simply pressing back after the [forward, forward] command.

fly-dashing aircombo note:

-The rule for non-chained air attacks is that you cannot use the same move twice in one jump. If you've done an air chain, however, only the first hit counts toward this rule. It's possible to do forward, chain into fierce, then fierce, but not forward, chain into fierce, then forward.

chain/unchain state

this is kinda obvious, but odd w/ some characters. when you jump, or walk, you're in a chain combo-ing state. you can start a combo(provided the hit connects/is blocked) and chain away. any form of dashing takes that ability away... also, you lose the ability to block, which may or may not be a fair tradeoff, depending on how well your offensive game is.

an oddity is with leilei, relative to the other air dashers(qbee, zabel, jedah... i cant think of the others...). after an air dash, leilei for some unknown reason or another cant do special moves.... minor, but jedah's blade/command throw, qbee's jaguar kick, or zabel's down-up move(i'm so bad w/ names -_-) are viable for use after an airdash. leilei would've taken great use out of airdashXXgong... but i guess its a shoulda woulda coulda

thing on the part of capcom

Building meter

Like many other games, its more advantageous of you to be building meter at the other side of the screen, if you and your opponent are being asses, and arent rushing down. so, here are my best suggestions w/ each character for building meter:

Aubath: j.mp->j.hp, & lp waves/dusts

anakaris: j.D+hk(you should be rushing down thogh)

Bishamon: s.rk

BB hood: light missles, & j.mp>j.mk

Demitri: ham and fried eggs!... just fireball -_-(boring fucker)

Felicia: manual charge(in pulses... or as I like to call cookieeee), or j.mk, j.rk(which is safer)

Jedah: wheels, c.mk

Gallon(talbain): j.mk, j.rk

leilei(hsien Ko): tk gong

Lilith: tk soul flash

Morrigan: j.mk->j.rk

Qbee: j.mp->j.rk

Victor: lp spins

Zabel: j.hp-> j.rk

Edited by Kyle

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The Meta-game of air to air combat in Vampire Savior:

Vampire Savior's aerial metagame is unique among capcom fighters. It combines the chains and aerial maneuverability found in the versus series, and melds it together with the pace and framework of an ST match. So, to re-iterate from above, and from linked articles/wiki's, you generally speaking have the following aerial options in Vampire Savior(Vsav):

-Throw

-Attack(single)

-Attack(Chain)

-Attack->special/ES/EX

-Block->attack

-Aerial Evasion/movement/special move

Since this is from a perspective purely from an air-to-air standpoint - the one factor lingering outside of these options is Vsav's engine mechanic of characters having near zero (0) blockstun in the air after the complete animation of an attack.

Teching and guard canceling are not available aerial options (since every character[including Anak] can ripotsÃ© from an air to air encounter...a.k.a. chicken guard)

Also to note, in similar fashion to versus games, in the same jump you can transition from an aerial block to an aerial attack, but not from an aerial attack to a block.

Its ok to be a bit Chicken:

Chicken Guarding is a very powerful tool in air to air confrontations in Vsav. It is an aerial option that every character(including Anakaris) has the option to utilize effectively. A description and definition of its uses and application has been previously written by myself on its uses above.

Air chaining - Elaborated:

In a single jump losing the ability to block after an aerial attack underlyingly infers a commitment made in jumping in. If you(as the initiating jumping character) cannot maintain a continuous string of attacks for the opponent to block aerially, you leave yourself prone to counter-attacks from chicken-guarding.

So upon picking up Vsav for the un-initiated, air-chaining on hit or block is one of highest priority habits to acquire(even flailing normals without hitting is a first initial habit to learn).

Due to the fact aerial block-stun is non-existent, the start-up of aerial attacks plays into much greater effect. Knowing the start-up of your own aerial normals compared to those of your opponents allows for your character to potentially interrupt their aerial chains mid-string. Thus, taking this into effect, which normal you begin an aerial chain must be weight with each jump.

For example, Felicia's jumping fierce punch(HP) and roundhouse kicks(HK) are among the best aerials in the game - but starting a jumping attack with these normals leaves you with only one other button to chain into with HP, and NONE with her HK - leaving her highly suceptible to chicken guarding. In this example, should they not chicken guard, and instead be hit by say, the HP, the RK will likely wiff, still benefiting you with the meter.

Also to take into account when weighing where to start an aerial chain is the height at an encounter. At the early parts of your character's jump, it is much more preferable to start with the light or medium attacks, since a longer period of time in that particular encounter will be of both you and your opponent being in the air, or your opponent possibly landing before you(Chain combos will mitigate their advantage landing before you considerably).

Should you land before your opponent [from utilizing long air chains] to keep your opponent airborn, you can knock them out of the air with a [unblockable] standing normal.

Throwing Air-throws into the formula:

Throws, ground and air, have a super turbo speed to them (1f startup)- which is to say, very fast, via the older input method of utilizing the Forward or Back directional input simultaneously with an attack. Conversely, it is EXTREMELY easy to tech throws as it is to throw. the window after a successful throw input is quite high, and it negates the soft throw damage to near nothing(but you can die from a tech'd throw). The throw buttons may vary between characters from a j.F/B+mp and\or j.F/B+HP .

This in mind, you can start your initiating jumping attack holding back, and initiating with your character's throw button. During this initiating attack, chain as you would normally. As an option select, if you hit or are out of range, you'll chain as normal, otherwise, the game will register the input as a throw, or a throw tech to what the opponent was doing.

In a defensive manner, if you delay this maneuver slightly, and the opponent does/attempts the same thing, you instead get an O.S. tech throw, or chicken guard attack, depending what your opponent leads/chains with.

This option select greatly benefits characters with medium attacks that inherently have high priority, such as lei lei(j.mp) or aubath(j.mp). to lesser extents, lilith(j.hp) and morrigan(j.hp) can use it too(utilizing their command input EX's to cover the tail ends of their chains)

In air-to-air encounters, O.S. chaining/throwing trumphs an opponent waiting to chicken guard you, as well as opponents who start their jumping chains with chaining normals that do not chain fast enough to beat out what becomes your chicken guarded attack.

Opponents who's characters can force you to block, and perform aerial chains that generate enough block push-back without allowing for a chicken guard opportunity counters this mildly(you are still not taking damage). Fast Jumping attacks (i.e. llight attacks), that manage to hit outside of throwing distance while being faster than the normal move being optiones for counters this strategy straight-out.(but they lose any chance of teching a throw if you do get in range)

Bufferable aerials & special moves

(Applicable to Demitri, Bishamon, Jedah, Gallon(talbain), Leilei(Hsien-Ko), Lilith, Morrigan, Q-bee and Zabel(L. Raptor), )

In similar fashion to standing normal moves, jumping normal moves are also bufferable in Vampire Savior. Depending on the characters set of aerial special moves, users have the option of creating varied situations which result in optimal positioning. I will give a brief rundown of each listed character:

Demitri

Demitri has two aerial special moves, his chaos flare projectile, and the drill. He can actually do a pseudo jumping kara-fireball, with a wiffing j.rk quickly canceled into fireball to build additional meter. An aerial move canceled into drill can be used to escape, by using stronger strength drills to get away from the opponent, or to add additional upfront pressure. A blocked aerial->lk drill will actually make demitri prone to chicken guarded attacks. On hit though, an opponent will flip out, and demitri's drill will wiff and/or come into contact with the opponent on the ground(depending on how high the aerial encounter happened.) [i have to test this option more, but it is infact an option that demitri has, I wouldnt mind a demitri expert's opinion weighed in on this]

Bishamon

Bishamon has the potential to cancel into his aerial projectile, but his projectile is quite straightforward, and has a bit've startup(in an aerial encounter, zero aerial blockstun allows a chickenguarded attack between the buffered normal and the projectile), so its not often a viable option in any scenario. [i wouldnt mind a demitri expert's opinion weighed in on this]

Jedah

Jedah has his aerial command throw, and aerial projectile(the "wheels"). In scenarios where jedah hits the opponent [causing them to flip out], canceling into either his aerial command throw(HCB+K) or wheels makes for advanced positioning greatly in jedah's favor. On block, it is much more favorable for jedah to catch the opponent when they're in the descent, minimizing the chances of an aerial repostÃ©.

Gallon/Talbain

Talbain can cancel an aerial move into beast cannon(bc), in both scenarios of hitting and blocking, he reaches the ground first, which is advantageous to him upon his opponent's landing. [i wouldnt mind a gallon expert's opinion weighed in on this, and whether or not he has feasible cross under options, etc.]

Leilei

Lelei's j.lp and j.lk are the only bufferable normals she has. It is feasible to buffer into gong or pendulum off of these jumping normals - circumstances for usage of these buffered moves are limited though, due to the short range of her j.lp and j.lk normals. Canceling into gong allows for a mistiming in landing. Canceling into a low ES gong allows for a player to extend his combo into a ground combo. On block though, this is not safe.(since the extended block stun allows for significant ease of teching/gc'ing). Similarly, canceling into the pendulum provides leilei with a varied landing time, and if the opponent is not expecting it, you are provided with further mixup via pendulum canceling.

Lilith

Lilith users should be proficient in using her projectile via a tiger knee motion. The height that her soul flash comes out(above the average character's head roughly) stops many opponents from advancing on her in certain scenarios. (see/inquire in the LeiLei Thread). Lilith can cancel a soul flash off of her normal moves, but more often times than not, she is in the air for too long for a favourable ending position.

Lilith's LI(luminous Illusion, aka Raging Demon EX) can be used at the end of aerial chains to zing your opponent for a full combo, after they thought chicken guarding lilith is safe.

Morrigan

Morrigan's projectile fires at a downard arc, and really serves little to no purpose when buffered off of a normal move. It is a defensive option, whereas she vies for forward momentum more often than not. In similar fashion to Lilith, morrigan can tack DI at the end of her aerial chains to deter opponents from using chicken guard. Morrigan can also cancel into her valkyrie turn. The primary issue though, is that valkyrie turn is really a get out of jail free card. You should be using that EX raw to get out of any pressure that you're in.

Qbee

Qbee doesn't benefit from buffering into her jaguar tooth move - but if you are committing to an airdash, you can cancel directly into her jaguar tooth move at any time. Doing this allows for extra "air time," and lets Qbee completely avoid EX moves such as Talbains Dragon Cannon Wave, LeiLei Knife Waves and Sasquatch's ES Ice Towers.(and other wave related ES/EX's that I'm forgetting. Qbee can cancel into her ES's off of her bufferable normals, but the nature of her landing those normals fits no scenario where using a buffered aerial in that manner is normally possible.

Zabel

Zabel has such ridiculous normals which normally take precedence over canceling aerial moves into special ones. BUT, canceling into his up-down sawblade move provides for some interesting block scenarios(air to air, and on the ground.), and canceling into the appropriate hurricane allows for zabel to land before his opponent.

Flailing aerials

[also pertains to scenarios where the opponent is on the ground, listed as Empty air chaining in the previous post]

As said initially, once you begin to input a jumping normal attack, [unless you are anakaris] your character loses all options to block. without any opponent around, you can still throw normal attacks. This is done by rising with one jumping attack, and falling with another. The second attack can be any lighter or stronger attack button, but cannot be the same as the initial attack button that was flailed. additionally, it cannot be a raw, unbuffered special attack/EX

Two positive scenarios occur with the second normal attack:

a. The move hits, or is blocked, enabling you to chain further or buffer a special move out of it.

b. You throw a jumping opponent (which happens on lesser occasions.)

This topic can be expanded further upon in scenarios against grounded opponents, but in both cases, having a second normal move to chain into always is in your character's benefit.'

Aerial Mobility vs. expanded Options.

A major oversight that new players[i myself at times ^_^;;] have when playing characters with airdashes (leilei,jedah,zabel,qbee,) is overutilization of airdash attacks in too many different scenarios. Ideally, iad'd attacks are the only form of air-dashed attack utilized by your character. these low to the ground attacks prevent the opponent from having the time to chicken guard you [since landing after performing a low altitude attack allows you to block immediately]. Additionally, characters lose the ability to buffer normals into special moves after a command airdash.

Airdash attacks can be used out of chicken guard. This is an overlooked option against characters who's aerial block strings leave them a significant distance away from your own character(such as jedah's j.hp).

Edited by gbursine

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The weighing of Teching(pushblocking) versus Guard Cancels against variable & constant pressure.

I just want to spend a little time talking about the applications of Guard Cancels & Tech hits. Let's review when is best to use these techniques and how to beat these techniques. B/C beyond a basic "High/Low/Throw" mixup, this is how the ground-to-ground and air-to ground metagame evolves in a match. I believe GB already did a good breakdown on the air-to-air meta game and how to apply those situations to mount an offense.

Tech Hits: Read the Opening Post for details on how to input this tactic.

Tech hits are best used when people are using single strikes to setup frame advantage or mixups.

Using TechHits: Bulleta Jumps-in at you with a deep j.mp, She has a legit 50/50 from this scenario. You block high or low and your guard might get broken. The solution is to Tech hit the j.mp and force her spacing out, such that her frame advantage isn't useful & she lost her mixup.

Beating TechHits: You are bulleta and your opponent keeps tech hitting your deep j.mp. You lose your mixups from this scenario. Your options to beat this are jumpin & invinc command throw, or do an early j,mp chain, such that they are having to switch up the timing the input their tech hits. You will easily get counter hits this way.

using TechHits: Bishamon get's massive frame advantage off his dashing.lp. You are fighting Bishamon and he uses this to setup his offense/mixups. Tech hit this move and force him back out, they negates his spacing making the appending mix-ups useless.

Beating TechHits: Bishamon keeps getting tech hit out of his dashing.lp. You have two real option. Use mobility to get back in immediately, so, dashing.lp, TECHHITS*, dashing.lp. You gotta confirm if they techhit the first one. Your second best option is to beat the counter-hit bait tech hit and score a favorable scenario. Dashing.lp, get's techhit. Later, dashing 4123[6]lp, they attempt to tech hit and their attack come outs, you trade hits and have a huge advantage b/c they are stuck in possessed (Forced standing) state & you are free to move = Dashing.mk, Link cr.lk, ES Spirit, rekka. Mixup.

Using TechHits: Fighting against Bulleta & she is using dashing.mp for frame advantage/Mixups. You tech hit this move and she loses a big part of her offense.

Beating TechHits: Using Bulleta, opponent keeps tech hitting your dashing.mp. You have two options. Use your mobility to reset the scenario. Dashing mp, TECHHITS*, dashing.mp again. Confirm the scenarios. This second one is much less likely to get TECHHIT* and you can mount your intended mixups, also some people are likely to get hit by the second dashing.mp and Bulleta can LINK cr.lk, ... into whatever for damage. Bulleta's second option to beating opponents using TECHHITS* against her dashign.mp is to setup the same scenario and do a dashing ES Command throw for the invincibility. The opponent will have a move activate and you will grab them out of it for good damage. (Do note, people have 5 frames of throw invulnerability on wake-up, this scenario is best when opponent is reset to the ground, from the air, not on their wake-up)

Guard Cancels- During blockstun, input 623P or 623K (character specific). Lastly, two shortcuts exist to 1-frame guard Cancel on wake-up. 63214, BLOCK, 3+P/K & 6321, BLOCK, 3+P/K.

Using Guard Cancels: Three distinct scenario come to mind on when to use GC's.

1.) Weaker player who jumpin and don't confirm combo's. When they full chain & you're blocking. Easy GC.

2.) 1-frame GC on wake-up for a meta-game for beating oki. This will work occasionally and can be baited! See input above.

3.) Every character has a few moves which are multiple hitting and long frame advantage. These particular moves should always be G.C'd. Absolute Guard exist in VSAV. This means, after you block the first hit, you can return to neutral and easily input the GC before the opponent's attack is completed.

Short list of moves you can/should GC virtually every time:

Aulbath: MEATY cr.mk & dashing.mp

Anakaris: ES Snake Arm

Bishamon: Dashing.mp & his 4-6 charge moves

Bulleta:

Demitri: 214K on block & Not his Bat Super. This is punishable on block!

Felicia: Delta kicks & Buckler

Gallon: Nunchuks

Jedah: st.hp & ES wheel (sometimes, if done correct, he has enough recovery)

LeiLei: J.hp & Tenraihai (sometimes, if done correct, she has enough recovery) & ES Gong

Lilith: ES Fireball(sometimes, if done correct, she has enough recovery) & st.hk

Morrigan: ES Fireball(sometimes, if done correct, she has enough recovery) & Valkyrie Turn & st.hk

Qbee: st.hp

Sasquatch: ES Kicks & Kicks & j.hk

Victor: Fist Pound & ES Lariat & ES Knee

Zabel: j.hk & 6hk & ES Twirl

Beating Guard Cancels: A few notes

1.) A few of these examples is more about your opponent respecting you. If they consistently GC your good normals (Aulbath dashing.mp etc). then you just gotta stop using it and start using single strikes (dashing.lk Frame-trap/throw)

2.) If they are GC against your crappy special moves, then stop doing it. Really, the special moves I listed have good applications, but if they are GC against em in our matches, then you gotta apply those moves differently. (Anak's snake-Arm beats jumps, but not people on the ground etc)

3.) This entire concept of beating GC's is a little vague b/c it's very situational. So, read the first two points here & try to apply those concepts to your immediate scenario.

Good Luck.

Kyle

Strictly in terms of guard cancels(gc's), I've laid out a list of characters based on the merits & flaws of their gc's. Before going into this first, gc's and tech hits(pushblocks) are the two available options that characters have while in blockstun(and yes, anakaris being the exception). Looking beyond these options are the actual unique characteristics that each character possesses with their respective gc's which make their guard cancels viable as an option or not.

[Aside from Anakaris] Each character's tech hit ability is universal, and the implications of teching are always the same. Teching takes a character who is in a defensive position, and allows space for the merits of the player/character who teched to get him out. Ideally a tech is performed at the right time and the defending player is able to recover from the tech in frame advantage, or at least push the opponent away to a position where advancing with more pressure gets stuffed [or does not appear to be viable.]. Ill placed techs (that are successful), normally lead the main player to defending more of the opponent's pressure. Teching should be the default [and to some extent the knee-jerk] reaction against offensive pressure. While in higher levels, it can be 'baited,' at lower levels, getting into the habit of eying when to tech hits, whether it be staggered in and out single hit offense, or chains & long block strings, is always a viable option.

When in a defensive posture, there is a two phase flowchart you can go through before deciding whether or not to guardcancel:

1. Can I reliably predict when i'm going to block an attack?

no->block/retreat/df pop

yes->

2. Will Teching provide enough of a pressure gap to allow my character to change the pace of the match in my favor?

no->tech

yes->gc

Part 1 of this two phase question is the assessment of whether or not a guard cancel can be executed. it is a variable measurement of what the player sees and reacts to against an opponents offence. Quite simply, if you can reliably predict, block, and dp(or gc shortcut ) normally, then gcing becomes that much more of a viable option. If you aren't sure whether or not you're in a position to guard cancel OR tech, you may very well not need to, and attempting to do so may very well be more for your undoing than benefit.

Otherwise, if you are midscreen, and can afford to retreat backwards towards the corner, it may be worth the risk to give space in hopes of at least neutralizing a defensive position. Dark force popping will normally do the opposite, scaring the opponent away from you, depending on the character's darkforce(hyper/super armor dark forces, flight dark forces, victor). DF pops are one of the main reasons why I reccommend always having a meter or two on stock to allow for this option.

The second part assesses the outcome. Ideallistic guard cancels will yield a knockdown. Of the entire cast,bbhood, Lei lei [in a roundabout way] and *Anakaris are the only characters who's guard cancels do not net a player a knockdown on a successful hit(this is of course solely the guard cancel). This being the case(a knockdown), use guard cancels brings about implications that the player intends not just to neutralize a situation, but to completely reverse it, and place the opponent in a defensive posture having to deal with oki(wakeup).

To add to this, one must also assess the negative outcomes of a successful guard cancel, which are primarily whiffing and getting stuffed(beaten out).

The latter scenario occurs typically with [what I have deemed as] class 3 guard cancels due to there slow startup.

Judging whether a gc will wiff or not one must account the nature of the position of the opponent's offence. Generally what I look for is if the opponent is low and afar(a character to a half character away), or if they are pressuring with quick recovering light attacks from a low distance.

Using these paramaters along with the list below should allow you(the player) to best decide when to guard cancel.

Class 1 - Conventional Guard Cancels

The following characters have guard cancels that do exactly what they're suppose to do, and are reliable at doing so. Their gc's are reliable when rationalizing between gcing, and tech hitting.

All of these guard cancels, have different attributes that gives them utility:

Demitri - Demitri has the most reliable 'shoryuken' dp in the game. as a guardcancel, it is just as strong, but the pure vertical nature of this gc's hitbox makes it suceptible to fast blocked normals from afar.

Lilith - As a gc, Lilith's gc is at a decent startup speed and reaches out horizontally enough to catch opponents. [i find it to be ideal.]

Morrigan - One of the fastest in the game. reliable due to its speed, though it does lack the horizontal range that other characters have.

Bishamon - Bish's GC is a standard dp, I have not come across it much against the bish's i've played against[which i account to the lack of bish players really]. This being said, I think bish has an open option to choose between teching and using one of his own normals[which are great imo!], or guard canceling to change and/or neutralize the curreny rhythmn in a match. Bishamon is actually a character that I will universally tend to gc against. Good offensive pressure from bishamon leaves players to answer to his high-priority normals after successful tech hits.

Victor - While he is a powerhouse in terms of the priority of his normals, Victor's playstyle is very partial to the use of his guard cancel. the hitboxes and direction of his gc are very favorable, and additionally, he is generally safe when using the light/medium versions on block, allowing him to transition into offensive movement.

Zabel (L. Raptor) - Zabel's gc has a great disjoined hitbox upon activation, and has reasonable startup (Â±8f). from what i recall, Zabel's gc or ES gc can be converted into an unblockable j.lk setup.

Felicia - Felicia's guardcancel is a two part gc that knocks down differently depending on part opponents are hit by and where they are getting hit. There are cases where an aerial opponent can be successfully hit by the first rising hit of felicia's guard cancel, but recover in time to block and repostÃ© the following hits.

Qbee - Qbee's gc is a two part gc. she actually hits on the springing and then on the way up of her gc. Knowing this, she has the potential to make aerial opponents recover before her should she only hit with the first half of her gc. Due to the nature of the character though, qbee can afford to tech hit most attacks and retaliate with an appropriate air/ground normal.

Talbain - Talbain's gc is by not means fast (nor does it carry its own invincibility), but imo his gc has utility, due to the ability to maneuver after it. this allows him to safely reposition himself on hit or block.

Jedah - Jedah's guard cancel has great horizontal reach. The only scenario that i have found jedah's guard cancel to be a unreliable answer thus far has been against blocked demitri drills(all versions wiff). Jedah does have one of the slower gc's, at 13 frames of startup (which is around the lower-mid range).

Class 2 - special case - These Guard Cancels are viable options under must more stringent conditions for the following characters. Teching, df popping, up/back, or old fashion blocking are generally their preferred options over guard cancels

Bulleta(BB hood) - BB's gc is one of the great novelties of vampire savior. Her gc makes her dissapear and appear behind the opponent in approcimately 35 some frames(most of which she is invincible). The obvious uses are for long blockstun moves(brilliant shower, sas's big beam, leilei's s.hp, cruel hunting, etc.). Generally BB players get by defensively with teching and up/back.attack.

Anakaris (Analog Chalice)- Anakaris's gc is ES only, and leaves him at a disadvantage. Nonethaless, it is a viable option for at least resetting the pressure, also his ES gc is the only defensive option he has while blocking. Anakaris is very much dependent on either controlling space from afar, or controlling the pace of the match with his hi/lo game, and frame traps.

Class 3 - Minimal/no use: Characters of this final class have guard cancels that are unreliable, and are generally disregarded in high level gameplay. Teching, df popping, up/back, or old fashion blocking are generally their preferred options over guard cancels

Aubath (Rikuo)- Aubath's guard cancel is one of the slowest in the game(24F). This coupled with the fact tha there is no natural invulnerability to the moves leaves aubath's gc to get stuffed before his gc completely executes more often than not. As such, teching is his primary defensive option. Fortunately, he has the repitoire of fast & safe normals for answers after successful techs.

Sasquatch - Sas's guard cancel [from my previous experience] seems as unreliable as aubath's guard cancel. On paper, sasquatch's guard cancels have a respectable startup that range from 7 to 10 frames.(7/10/9/9). From further assessment, where I think sasquatch is mediocre in his frame data, he suffers from the lack of inherent invincibility frames. Additionally, the hitboxes of his gc(the spinny foot) are located well within his hurtbox, which extends significantly further than the hitbox of the foot. No worries though, Sasquatch has an amazing offensive game, and aerials/specials/normals which can sufficiently assist him after a successful tech.

Leilei (Hsien Ko) - Leilei has the slowest guard cancel, at [at least 29 frames]. To be viable, a leilei player must also be proficient at pendulum canceling, on top of gc timing. There are applicable scenarios that her gc can be used, but like aubath, leilei has the normals that allows for teching and responding with the appropriate normals.

And thats it [for now].

-gb

Wakeup frames:

Jedah 50 35 50

Bulleta 42 44 42

Q-Bee 58 26 51

Lilith 58 38 58

Demitri 37 39 37

Morrigan 58 38 58

Anakaris 57 38 57

Victor 41 41 41

Zabel 49 33 49

Lei-Lei 40 41 40

Gallon 42 40 42

Felicia 66 40 66

Aulbath 44 39 44

Sasquatch 58 34 58

Bishamon 41 34 41

Edited by gbursine

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THIS:

especially b/c it's applicable in numerous situations. This is when being hit out of the air + another condition which hasn't been defined yet. Counter-hit? During special moves?

I've been thinking of the hit properties against supers like, million bat, brilliant shower(morrigan's missle super), cruel hunting. I forgot how it works... but theres an are times (in what i'm considering lower lvl play) where it is actually advantageous to take the hit. these of course are the cases where, the first hit causes knockdown, and you avoid majority of the super's chip/damage. I need to look into these occurences. they generally happen when my character is midway through some sort of special move/aerial attack.

Side rolling on wakeup has 5frames where you cannot throw. Exceptions are Victor and Sas's command throws and all EX throws

Edited by Kyle

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I don't know if anyone will find this useful, but for push blocks, the whole 25/50/75/100% thing never jived with me logically...mainly cos I think it's misleading. I like to think of it in terms of actual probability, so I had my friend do the math for me a while back and figure out the actual probability of getting a push block on each input. Here's the info, from the vsav wiki:

You have a 0/32 chance (0%) of AG'ing on the first and second inputs.

You have a 8/32 chance (25%) of AG'ing on the third input.

You have a 12/32 chance (37.5%) of AG'ing on the fourth input.

You have a 9/32 chance of (28.125%) AG'ing on the fifth input.

You have a 3/32 chance of (9.375%)AG'ing on the sixth input.

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I think that's cool and informative, yet slightly misleading. I think seeing the cumulative statistics is better.

and I hate my old writing. holy shit its technical and conveys the information well, but it makes me -___-

Cumulatively your numbers look like this:

You have a 0/32 chance (0%) of AG'ing on the first and second inputs.

You have a 8/32 chance (25%) of AG'ing on the third input.

You have a 20/32 chance (62.5%) of AG'ing on the fourth input.

You have a 29/32 chance of (90.625%) AG'ing on the fifth input.

You have a 32/32 chance of (100%)AG'ing on the sixth input.

I'll throw both representations up in the first post.

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Haha, the cumulative numbers are exactly what I'm trying to avoid with my explanation, though. When you look at mine, it shows that the fourth and fifth are the most important inputs for the tech hit, and that the third hit has almost as much a chance of initiating it as the fifth. I guess it just depends how you like to view the information...but the cumulative numbers always looked more misleading to me :P

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Meh. to me, its implied if the percentage is higher, then its more likely that I score a tech with more inputs per block'd hit. But w/e. information is information, as long as people have a reliable way of interpreting it.

And I just posted my first draft for how new/old players should approach air to air encounters in Vampire Savior. ofc. its a wall of text ^_^;;

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I guess I'm the closest thing to a "Talbain expert" here, so here's a lengthy elaboration for your "Bufferable aerials & special moves" blurb, gbursine:

Talbain has the ability to cancel AND kara-cancel most of his air normals into Beast Cannon or ES Beast Cannon. There are a variety of useful implications for these, whether your opponent is meeting you mid-air or plans to deal with your offense from the ground. Let's start with air...

- When meeting an opponent in the air, Talbain's ability to cancel air attacks into BCs provides you with a useful tool to deal with people who Chicken Guard. For starters, you can cancel his medium attacks into BCs instead of canceling them into more mediums or hard attacks. This will slightly alter the usual timing between attacks, and even alter the spacing (since the BC startup will completely stop Talbain's forward momentum), making it an viable counter to people who chicken guard too frequently against Talbain - a phenomenon that gives many wolf players trouble. No matter what happens in this situation, there is some sort of benefit:

1. If the BC connects after a blocked attack, you get a knockdown off of an air-to-air instead of a reset. I don't think I need to explain why this rules. Moving on.

2. If the normal-to-be-canceled hits the opponent, your Air BC will put you back on the ground with wildly-altered timing, depending on your height relative to your opponent's. In most situations, this is actually SLOWER than just landing normally. However, the wide variety of different possible timings (even if it's slower than normal, different timings make it more difficult to mindlessly AG Talbain), and the possibility of landing behind your opponent at certain heights make this a powerful option. Also, each additional BC is that much more meter you have to play with!

3. If they successfully counter your attack with a chicken guard, you are going to be slightly farther away from your opponent than you would be if you had retained your forward momentum. Not exactly a game-changer, but not useless, either.

4. If they block your attack and don't go for the chicken guard, the Air BC will keep you close to your opponent. Also, the Air BC will usually reach the opponent after they hit the ground. Damn near anything they try apart from blocking will get beat, and in almost every situation, the Air BC will reach them quick enough to hit the opponent out of THEIR pre-jump frames, meaning they can't just jump out of it or land and try to chicken guard again. This doesn't come up often, but it's worth knowing.

*Bonus: If you're playing an extremely catatonic player, you can use kara-BC to build additional meter by jumping backwards and doing J.Mp, J.Mk xx BC. Hooray!

- A short blurb on chicken guarding with Air BC: It rocks. If you successfully block an air string, counter with Air BC for a free knockdown! This is also useful against people with long air chains to keep the offensive pressure on, or Air Dashers who like to attack from the farthest possible range (jump up, chicken guard the air dash from near the ground, counter with Air BC).

- Against grounded opponents, there's generally two ways to apply the cancel/kara-cancel BC:

1. If you know your opponent is going to attempt an AG, jump in, do something like J.Mk, and cancel it into an Air BC. This will keep them from immediately countering with something (unless they want to be rewarded with a knockdown), allowing you to stay in close even after being AG'd. The counter, of course, is that they could just anti-air you, or even worse, if they simply block both attacks, you won't land in time to block their counter-attack (i.e they get a free ground chain on you).

2. Using kara-BC, you have a pretty cool option select that can be useful against opponents with SRK-type attacks or other anti-air normals/specials. Though, in actual practice, it's not foolproof, it's still pretty damned useful:

As you're descending from your jump, press J.Mk and kara-cancel it into a BC. Preferably, you want to do the J.Mk from a distance where it'll whiff. What happens here is, if they jump at you, or try and counter you with a normal, you'll beat them with your J.Mk. If they try instead try an SRK, it will whiff and they will instead be hit by your BC.

Naturally, as I mentioned above, this isn't going to work out 100% of the time. If your opponent does a move that can beat your J.Mk, it won't magically win because you're doing a cool option select. Also, SRK attacks that move the opponent far enough forward will still beat this, so it's generally intended to beat Jab-SRKs/vertical Demon Cradles, slow anti-air normals (Anak's C.Hp, Jedah's C.Mk), and other anti-air specials (Jedah's Nero-Fatica, anti-air projectiles).

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Here's a list of specific differences in character hitboxes. Each character might have specific BnB they can do in these scenarios only.

Example: LeiLei get's a jump combo against tall standing opponents.

Example: Morrigan get's double overheads against wide crouching opponents.

Example: Jedah gets an infinite (66hp) against standing Bishmon b/c he's wide & tall.

Example: Lilith can attack with lp against tall crouching opponents. This is amazing b/c it's her most frame advantageous move, this typically whiffs on crouching opponents.

etc.

"Short Crouching" are (In this order):

Q-bee

Bulleta

Lilith

Morrigan

J.Talbain

"Wide Crouching" are:

Zabel

Victor

Sasquatch

Aulbath

Bishamon

"Tall Crouching" are: NOT YET COMPLETED

Anak

Victor

???

"Tall Standing" are (In this order):

Anak

Jedah

Victor

Bishamon

Demitri

"wide standing" are (In this order):

Dark Force Zabel

Lei-Lei

Bishamon

"Short Standing" are:

Bulleta

Edited by Kyle

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This is when being hit out of the air + another condition which hasn't been defined yet. Counter-hit? During special moves?
About this: I've been studying VS's mechanics in MAME and there's actually a time limit involved in the juggle restriction process. Once a character is hit by a move that can be juggled from, a timer starts to count down (the length of which varies depending on the move). If this timer reaches zero before they are hit again, they become invincible until they reach the ground. I think this might be responsible for those situations you mentioned.

As an aside, I also picked apart how damage scaling works and could post a writeup if anyone's interested.

Edited by felineki

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Yes plz plz plz do. =)

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Alright, here's the writeup on damage scaling calculation. Red and white damage are each calculated separately, so this whole routine gets performed twice for every attack.

Step 1: Get Base Damage Value

Every attack has its own base amount of red damage and white damage defined.

If the attacker's health is lower than or equal to the victim's health, a comeback bonus will be added to the base damage value.

The level of bonus and chance of receiving it changes as the difference in health between players reaches each threshold:

• \$00 (Equal)
0 = 16/16 (100%)
• \$24 (1/4 bar):
0 = 16/16 (100%)
• \$48 (1/2 bar):
0 = 11/16 (68.75%)
1 = 4/16 (25%)
2 = 1/16 (6.25%)
• \$6C (3/4 bar):
0 = 4/16 (25%)
1 = 8/16 (50%)
2 = 3/16 (18.75%)
3 = 1/16 (6.25%)
• \$90 (One full bar):
1 = 3/16 (18.75%)
2 = 8/16 (50%)
3 = 3/16 (18.75%)
4 = 1/16 (6.25%)
5 = 1/16 (6.25%)
• \$B4 (One and 1/4 bars):
2 = 3/16 (18.75%)
3 = 8/16 (50%)
4 = 3/16 (18.75%)
5 = 1/16 (6.25%)
6 = 1/16 (6.25%)
• \$D8 (One and 1/2 bars):
3 = 3/16 (18.75%)
4 = 8/16 (50%)
5 = 3/16 (18.75%)
6 = 1/16 (6.25%)
7 = 1/16 (6.25%)
• \$FC (One and 3/4 bars):
4 = 3/16 (18.75%)
5 = 8/16 (50%)
6 = 3/16 (18.75%)
7 = 1/16 (6.25%)
8 = 1/16 (6.25%)
• \$120 (Two full bars):
5 = 3/16 (18.75%)
6 = 8/16 (50%)
7 = 3/16 (18.75%)
8 = 2/16 (12.5%)

Each level of bonus adds the following percentage of the base amount:

0 = 0%
1 = ~6.25% (6.25% rounded down)
2 = ~12.5% (12.5% rounded down)
3 = ~18.75% (12.5% rounded down + 6.25% rounded down)
4 = ~25% (25% rounded down)
5 = ~31.25% (25% rounded down + 6.25% rounded down)
6 = ~37.5% (25% rounded down + 12.5% rounded down)
7 = ~43.75% (25% rounded down + 12.5% rounded down + 6.25% rounded down)
8 = ~50% (50% rounded down)

The total, bonus included, maxes out at 127.

Step 3: Apply Damage Multiplier

During certain states, a multiplier is applied to the attacker's damage:

Astral Vision: 0.5 (both player and mirror, excluding projectiles)
Mimic Doll: 0.25 (shadow only, excluding projectiles)
Mirror Doll: 0.5 (both player and mirror, excluding projectiles)

Step 4: Get Victim Character Defense

Each character has their own base defense value:

Bulleta: 0
Demitri: 0
Gallon: -1
Victor: 2
Zabel: -1
Morrigan: -2
Anakaris: 0
Felicia: 0
Bishamon: 1
Aulbath: 0
Sasquatch: 1
DF Zabel: 2
Q-Bee: -1
Lei-Lei: -2
Lilith: -2
Jedah: 0
Dark Gallon: -1
Oboro Bishamon: 1

A value is then added to the victim's base defense value depending on many factors, such as attacking character, combo count upon current hit, attack type, and damage type (red/white).

Normal Attacks:

Red Damage:
Victor: Combo count *4
All others: Combo count *3

White Damage:
Victor, Anakaris, Sasquatch: Combo count *4
All others: Combo count *3

Specials: Combo count *2

ES Specials: Combo count *2

EX Attacks: Combo count *1

This addition maxes out at 31.

Step 6: Add Low Health Boost

If the victim's health is lower than or equal to a certain value, then a boost is added to their defense, the amount of which varies by chance.

Health Threshold:

Bulleta: \$38
Demitri: \$30
Gallon: \$30
Victor: \$28
Zabel: \$38
Morrigan: \$30
Anakaris: \$30
Felicia: \$30
Bishamon: \$30
Aulbath: \$20
Sasquatch: \$30
DF Zabel: \$30
Q-Bee: \$40
Lei-Lei: \$30
Lilith: \$30
Jedah: \$30
Dark Gallon: \$28
Oboro Bishamon: \$38

Defense Boost:

• Bulleta
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Demitri
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Gallon
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Victor
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Zabel
4 = 23/32 (71.875%)
5 = 5/32 (15.625%)
6 = 3/32 (9.375%)
7 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Morrigan
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Anakaris
4 = 23/32 (71.875%)
5 = 5/32 (15.625%)
6 = 3/32 (9.375%)
7 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Felicia
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Bishamon
2 = 23/32 (71.875%)
3 = 5/32 (15.625%)
4 = 3/32 (9.375%)
5 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Aulbath
7 = 23/32 (71.875%)
8 = 5/32 (15.625%)
9 = 3/32 (9.375%)
10 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Sasquatch
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• DF Zabel
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Q-Bee
3 = 23/32 (71.875%)
4 = 5/32 (15.625%)
5 = 3/32 (9.375%)
6 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Lei-Lei
5 = 23/32 (71.875%)
6 = 5/32 (15.625%)
7 = 3/32 (9.375%)
8 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Lilith
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Jedah
7 = 23/32 (71.875%)
8 = 5/32 (15.625%)
9 = 3/32 (9.375%)
10 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Dark Gallon
6 = 23/32 (71.875%)
7 = 5/32 (15.625%)
8 = 3/32 (9.375%)
9 = 1/32 (3.125%)
• Oboro Bishamon
3 = 23/32 (71.875%)
4 = 5/32 (15.625%)
5 = 3/32 (9.375%)
6 = 1/32 (3.125%)

Step 7: Add Health Gap Scaling

An additional random boost is given to the victim's defense value based on difference in health between players, the exact amount of which varies by chance:

[*]\$00

0 = 16/16 (100%)

[*]\$24 (1/4 bar):

0 = 16/16 (100%)

[*]\$48 (1/2 bar):

0 = 12/16 (75%)

1 = 4/16 (25%)

[*]\$6C (3/4 bar):

0 = 4/16 (25%)

1 = 8/16 (50%)

2 = 3/16 (18.75%)

3 = 1/16 (6.25%)

[*]\$90 (One full bar):

0 = 4/16 (25%)

1 = 8/16 (50%)

2 = 3/16 (18.75%)

3 = 1/16 (6.25%)

[*]\$B4 (One and 1/4 bars):

1 = 3/16 (18.75%)

2 = 8/16 (50%)

3 = 3/16 (18.75%)

4 = 1/16 (6.25%)

5 = 1/16 (6.25%)

[*]\$D8 (One and 1/2 bars):

2 = 3/16 (18.75%)

3 = 8/16 (50%)

4 = 3/16 (18.75%)

5 = 1/16 (6.25%)

6 = 1/16 (6.25%)

[*]\$FC (One and 3/4 bars):

3 = 3/16 (18.75%)

4 = 8/16 (50%)

5 = 3/16 (18.75%)

6 = 1/16 (6.25%)

7 = 1/16 (6.25%)

[*]\$120 (Two full bars):

4 = 3/16 (18.75%)

5 = 8/16 (50%)

6 = 3/16 (18.75%)

7 = 1/16 (6.25%)

8 = 1/16 (6.25%)

Step 8: Calculate Damage Value

Final defense value maxes out at 32. Damage dealt = Damage * (Defense * 0.03125) rounded to nearest (minimum of 1).

Edited by felineki

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Wow @ felineki. Those dmg calcs are intense. :3 thanks for that.

Some insight on a technique I have been noticing and starting to apply these days.

I find this useful w/ Morrigan, Demitri, Lilith (superjump) & there's bound to be other who can apply this.

When setting up a jump-in I purposefully whiff a j.lp. The actual input I do is Jump, lp~lk,

Here's what happens: Your active frames force a proximity block and negate your opponents ability to walk backwards. This mean's your jump-in is spaced where oyou want it to be. Very useful for setting up cross-ups. Lastly, The j.lk never comes out cause your just buffered it during the J.lp whiff

If the J.lp hits the opponent for whatever reason, you automatically chain to j.lk (useless), you land and get a mix-up as your opponent resets to the ground.

If the opponent Air blocks j.lp, you will automatically chain to j.lk. You can confirm this scenario and full chain into a grounded UB = Reset = Oki. (j.lp, j.lk, j.mp, j.mk, j.hp, j.hk, land, st.lp)

Lastly, against the 5 tall characters, your initial j.lp is possible to hit them standing. This causes the j.lk to whiff and the next air normal to be spaced well for a cross up. Sorry Bishamon, Jedah, Victor. Demitri & Anakaris.

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From XenoZip @SRK. Post#2240

Regarding pursuits there's about three useful situations for them that I can think of. Normally they only do white/recoverable damage and they don't put you in a good position for rushdown, so you'd want to avoid using them in order to go for a meaty mixup instead, but;

- Obviously, if it will kill them.

- If you're across the screen you can intentionally whiff a late pursuit in order to get across the screen very quickly (except Victor).

- If your back is to the wall and your pursuit would put you on the other side (Felicia, Lillith, Aulbath, Sasquatch).

Meanwhile there's really no reason not to do Felicia's down-down-punch scratch.

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From Rithli @ SRK. Post#2319

Good find.

Translation for the parameters:

Top: Attack/Power

Top Left: Speed

Top Right: Potential

Bottom Left: Stability/Safeness

Bottom: Defense

From what he says on his blogpost, it sounds like DDsasquatch constructed this parameter chart based on his own ideas while being supplemented by the opinions and suggestions of others. There's five ranks in each parameter and the character was assigned points based on the specified area. In that sense, the evaluations are obviously somewhat generalized, but at the same time plausible enough. A bit different from your standard tierlist, but definitely interesting to look at and just as informative at a glance.

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From XenoZip @Srk. Pos#2331

I don't think there's an input trick to it. F, then roll to UF, then neutral then F (or UF) is about as fast as UF UF. And F, neutral, U, roll to UF does not work.

But here's the minimum height at which a character can airdash:

Jedah: 2nd frame

Lei-Lei: 4th frame

QB: 2nd frame

Zabel: 3rd frame

In the case of QB, if you do it fast enough against a cornered standing Zable at point black you should fly directly forward instead of down towards the ground. And technically it's possible to do it low enough where she actually flies upwards instead of directly towards. Personally I can't fly upwards without tool assistance, but I can fly directly forwards without cheating.

Anyway I dunno if this image means anything but here's the minimum heights they can airdash: vsav-iads.

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From Kajoq @SRK post# 2536

You should still be able to jump out of that setup if its off wakeup. You're throw invincible for 5 frames on wakeup I believe. And Bee definitely gets off the ground before that. I think Victor is the only char who takes 5, everyone else is 3-4

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Unblockable Descriptions:

From Skankin @SRK Post#2747

I don't know the exact details myself, cos I don't play BB Hood, but here's what I think it is: If BB Hood does J.Hk really close to the ground and you block it high, she can land and attack with a low at the same time. Naturally, like you said, the way to stop it is to just block low if you think she's gonna end her jump with J.HK.

Talbain's unblockable, however, is easy to explain:

When someone's in the corner, do an ES Beast Cannon like so:

Fwd - UpFwd - Down - UpFwd/Fwd - Down

You could also do

UpFwd - Down - UpFwd/Fwd - Down - Up

The trick is to do the first "Down" right above them, and then bolded move that follows will be unblockable (if done quickly enough). The game seems to think you're trying to block in two directions at once. This works midscreen as well, but it's much harder to do.

In any case, the unblockable isn't too practical on most characters; you can try hitting them between the first and second parts of the sequence, DP (if you have one), Guard Cancel, Push Block, or even just jump back right when Talbain is about to come straight down on you. You also only get two hits.

From XenoZip @SRK Post# 2750

OK thanks, I understand it now. After checking in an emulator it looks like the game does not allow you to switch your guard for about 10-13 frames when blocking her j.HK. So if you block it high you can't immediately block low afterwords. But likewise if you block it low you also can't immediately block high for the next 10-13F, which means an instant j.MP would also be "unblockable" on tall crouching characters like Victor.

I tested this with Lilith's ES Soul Flash and it looks like a similar thing applies to her, you can't switch your block while you're blocking the projectile. So from an absolute max range qcf+2P she can j.LK land c.LK and it becomes unblockable for the same reason as above: you're stuck in standblock until the blockstop from the fireball ends so you can't block the c.LK low, and the j.LK forces you to block high..

Also Lei-Lei can do the same thing with ES Gong.

I'm guessing anyone with a slow enough projectile might actually be able to do an unblockable the same way.

I thought fuzzyguard didn't exist in VSav but it looks like it does exist, it's just limited to the total blockstop duration, it seems, rather than any part of blockstun.

And thanks for the info on Gallon, too.

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From Kajoq @SRK post#2796

Lol, Taunt Cancels!

Just discovered that LeiLei (and at Least q-Bee) can taunt cancel off any special cancelable normal. Doesn't really have any useful application, but I've been trying to figure out a way to cancel into taunt, then link a combo out of it. I think its doable with some combination of ES gong and/or HP projectile.

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From AWJ @SRK Post#3199

I've just tested using frame-by-frame controlled input in MAME in Vampire Savior, SFA2, SFA, and the original Darkstalkers, and reached the surprising conclusion that piano reversal inputs don't work in any CPS2 game from Darkstalkers onward (I didn't test any Marvel games, but I expect them to be similar, given that X-Men:COTA was released after Darkstalkers). In Darkstalkers and later games, when you press a button or buttons that complete a command input, it seems the engine always "consumes" the buffered joystick inputs whether you're in a state eligible to perform that move or not (by constrast, in SF2 the engine only "consumes" the buffered inputs if you actually perform the move)

However, I also tested SF3 3s and piano reversals do work in that game. This is not surprising, since we already know the SF3 engine has many differences from the CPS2 games in how inputs are processed--charge partitioning, toward-away-down-up as a valid alternate 360 input, etc.

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I just want to spend a little time talking about the applications of Guard Cancels & Tech hits. Let's review when is best to use these techniques and how to beat these techniques. B/C beyond a basic "High/Low/Throw" mixup, this is how the ground-to-ground and air-to ground metagame evolves in a match. I believe GB already did a good breakdown on the air-to-air meta game and how to apply those situations to mount an offense.

Tech Hits: Read the Opening Post for details on how to input this tactic.

Tech hits are best used when people are using single strikes to setup frame advantage or mixups.

Using TechHits: Bulleta Jumps-in at you with a deep j.mp, She has a legit 50/50 from this scenario. You block high or low and your guard might get broken. The solution is to Tech hit the j.mp and force her spacing out, such that her frame advantage isn't useful & she lost her mixup.

Beating TechHits: You are bulleta and your opponent keeps tech hitting your deep j.mp. You lose your mixups from this scenario. Your options to beat this are jumpin & invinc command throw, or do an early j,mp chain, such that they are having to switch up the timing the input their tech hits. You will easily get counter hits this way.

using TechHits: Bishamon get's massive frame advantage off his dashing.lp. You are fighting Bishamon and he uses this to setup his offense/mixups. Tech hit this move and force him back out, they negates his spacing making the appending mix-ups useless.

Beating TechHits: Bishamon keeps getting tech hit out of his dashing.lp. You have two real option. Use mobility to get back in immediately, so, dashing.lp, TECHHITS*, dashing.lp. You gotta confirm if they techhit the first one. Your second best option is to beat the counter-hit bait tech hit and score a favorable scenario. Dashing.lp, get's techhit. Later, dashing 4123[6]lp, they attempt to tech hit and their attack come outs, you trade hits and have a huge advantage b/c they are stuck in possessed (Forced standing) state & you are free to move = Dashing.mk, Link cr.lk, ES Spirit, rekka. Mixup.

Using TechHits: Fighting against Bulleta & she is using dashing.mp for frame advantage/Mixups. You tech hit this move and she loses a big part of her offense.

Beating TechHits: Using Bulleta, opponent keeps tech hitting your dashing.mp. You have two options. Use your mobility to reset the scenario. Dashing mp, TECHHITS*, dashing.mp again. Confirm the scenarios. This second one is much less likely to get TECHHIT* and you can mount your intended mixups, also some people are likely to get hit by the second dashing.mp and Bulleta can LINK cr.lk, ... into whatever for damage. Bulleta's second option to beating opponents using TECHHITS* against her dashign.mp is to setup the same scenario and do a dashing ES Command throw for the invincibility. The opponent will have a move activate and you will grab them out of it for good damage. (Do note, people have 5 frames of throw invulnerability on wake-up, this scenario is best when opponent is reset to the ground, from the air, not on their wake-up)

Guard Cancels- During blockstun, input 623P or 623K (character specific). Lastly, two shortcuts exist to 1-frame guard Cancel on wake-up. 63214, BLOCK, 3+P/K & 6321, BLOCK, 3+P/K.

Using Guard Cancels: Three distinct scenario come to mind on when to use GC's.

1.) Weaker player who jumpin and don't confirm combo's. When they full chain & you're blocking. Easy GC.

2.) 1-frame GC on wake-up for a meta-game for beating oki. This will work occasionally and can be baited! See input above.

3.) Every character has a few moves which are multiple hitting and long frame advantage. These particular moves should always be G.C'd. Absolute Guard exist in VSAV. This means, after you block the first hit, you can return to neutral and easily input the GC before the opponent's attack is completed.

Short list of moves you can/should GC virtually every time:

Aulbath: MEATY cr.mk & dashing.mp

Anakaris: ES Snake Arm

Bishamon: Dashing.mp & his 4-6 charge moves

Bulleta:

Demitri: 214K on block & Not his Bat Super. This is punishable on block!

Felicia: Delta kicks & Buckler

Gallon: Nunchuks

Jedah: st.hp & ES wheel (sometimes, if done correct, he has enough recovery)

LeiLei: J.hp & Tenraihai (sometimes, if done correct, she has enough recovery) & ES Gong

Lilith: ES Fireball(sometimes, if done correct, she has enough recovery) & st.hk

Morrigan: ES Fireball(sometimes, if done correct, she has enough recovery) & Valkyrie Turn & st.hk

Qbee: st.hp

Sasquatch: ES Kicks & Kicks & j.hk

Victor: Fist Pound & ES Lariat & ES Knee

Zabel: j.hk & 6hk & ES Twirl

Beating Guard Cancels: A few notes

1.) A few of these examples is more about your opponent respecting you. If they consistently GC your good normals (Aulbath dashing.mp etc). then you just gotta stop using it and start using single strikes (dashing.lk Frame-trap/throw)

2.) If they are GC against your crappy special moves, then stop doing it. Really, the special moves I listed have good applications, but if they are GC against em in our matches, then you gotta apply those moves differently. (Anak's snake-Arm beats jumps, but not people on the ground etc)

3.) This entire concept of beating GC's is a little vague b/c it's very situational. So, read the first two points here & try to apply those concepts to your immediate scenario.

Good Luck.

Kyle

Edited by Kyle

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this needs moved to header. this is so legit.

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This game has 2P crossup. As in, if you are player 2, and they choose to neutral tech/roll towards the corner, you can simply walk into the corner and cross them up (SF4/AH style).

Jedah specifically can just airdash into the corner to cross you up. Most characters won't use this, but it's good to know (especially for Bulleta users).

Universally, if you break guard in the corner, you get left/right mixup (again, most characters don't need this).

Against Demitri specifically (I only checked with Bulleta) you can cross him up in the corner even if you're player 1.

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From JedPossum @ SRK. Post#3721

time to show some hidden stuff on vsav

2 characters that got shit canned

http://i820.photobucket.com/albums/zz127/jedpossum/names.jpg fishman's english name and jedah's name are further down

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Here's one reason that could explain Anita. However, these images are from a different title...

@1:36

Edited by Kyle

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