[VS] Jedah: Night of the Demon

[doragonkoroshi]

Kyle is kicking around the idea of tutorial videos for every character. This thread is to get the ball rolling on ideas for what needs to be in the Jedah video. This is not the regular Jedah thread. This is simply to help organize the Jedah video, if/when it happens. If the video comes out, we can probably even delete this thread eventually.

1 – Basics

- Punish

- Anti- Air

-cr.mk

-lp

-qcb p

-chicken block

-preemptive j. lk/lp (chain cancel for reset overhead options)

- Pokes

-lp

-dash j. lk

-dash j.mp

-dash j.hp (is this the place to explain dash.hp, land, lp guard break or is that elsewhere?)

-show mp hit boxes as they are deceiving, also show ground hp hitboxes as first arm is invulnerable (i think)

- chasing ground rolls

-neutral jump, descending hk if forward roll, descending mp if no roll

-jump/dash forward, airdash->air chain to catch back roll or no roll (jedah will turn around with air chain)

- Air-Game

-j.hk to cancel air momentum

-IAD, backdash->(immediate) airdash PRACTICE THESE

-air chain into standing lp guard break

2 - Normals- explain the most used application for each.

3 - Specials- only explain the intricacies (If there are any). WHat's good for building meter, what's got invinc. etc.

-show wheel hitboxes

-corner wheel->dive throw

-ES wheel->unblock (ES is unders "specials", right?)

-tech hit into wheels

4 - Supers- Same as "3"

-corner wheel->super trap

5 - Mix-ups

-renda bonus with cr.lp, cr.lk

-dash j.hk crossups HOLD FORWARD, PRACTICE PRACTICE FOR OPTIMAL TIMING

-hk on the ground gets you a slooow move, hk too soon in the air gets empty dash, both easily punished

-double/triple overheads

-jump j.hk (whiff), j.mk/lk/lp/mp

-on tall characters can instant overhead j.mk/lk/lp on the way up, whiff j.hk, descend with j.mp/lk/lp/mp

6 - Combo's

-cr.lk/lp, cr.mp, STANDING mk, CROUCHING hk

-learn spacing for when to end in cr.hk, and when to end in hp/cr.hp

-stop combo at standing mk to maintain pressure (+1 frame?)

-DF cr.lp, up, lp, forward mp, mk, hk, down lp...

7 - Frame traps & Tick throws

(should add 8 - Dark Force?)

[doragonkoroshi]

Got the ball rolling. Help me out and I'll update.

[Dyne]

Got the ball rolling. Help me out and I'll update.

1 – Basics

- Punish

[ Typically, you want to 'punish' in the sense of chicken blocking, throwing, and wheels from far away as possible. The reason for doing wheels as far as possible is that unless the opponent is incredibly fast with the speedy characters, only wolf can punish from fullscreen for a wheel attempt. Furthermore, it conditions some opponents to constantly try to rush in. With enough experience, you will notice this most with RAPTOR, BEE, other IAD characters and BB hood. Otherwise, you do not want to throw out just any normal, most of Jedah's normals are situational and often so severely punishable that sticking to LP and LK's are a good idea. ]

- Anti- Air

-cr.mk [ An ideal normal for well-read AA approaches, it is one of Jedah's most powerful and key normals in his repertoire. It often sets the spacing necessary for Jedah to escape or even approach due to the fact that his dash has a very minute moment where he has to get some air to throw out normals. An example is when resetting an airborne opponent with the cr.MK, you can dash in and unleash a vicious rushdown attempt and for the most part, is 50-50 ish if you poke and attempt a throw. { Even if opponents try to command throw, you can just try to rush or poke and keep away for a second }. It is also one of his slower normals, so use with much caution. Projectiles and other things like that will hit him even if it only hits the blood pillar. Sometimes in the corner and you're the aggressor, throwing the cr.MK here and there in the midst of your pokes will catch opponents upbacking over and over, easily conditioning them. And if they refuse to stop out of habit or trolling, it doesn't matter to you. ]

-lp

[ Oddly enough, it can come in handy when some opponents, especially BEE or a well-caught BB Hood are constantly airborne. One of the more intricate uses of the jab, high or low, is that after you dash and throw an HP or anything in particular and an opponent chicken blocks, landing and jabbing is almost fast enough that you can reset them before they can do anything about it. Like the cr.MK, that reset allows for Jedah to either get in there with a rushdown dash or to tick throw off of the dash or what have you. Furthermore, it's fairly fast enough that it's not a big deal if it whiffs from circumstances. On the largest characters, it will hit regardless of they crouch. Throwing an LP / LK staggered or chained or ticked, then throwing a wheel after one or the other is a fairly safe way to stay aggressive and zone, this is seen when backdashing, then doing LP / LK, or any normal cancelled into the wheel. When opponents air block the wheel, the jab occasionally catches them, but claw is best for that sort of thing. After an air dash jRH, it's ideal to LP or sometimes LK, wheel or attempt another rush again. Even if you're teched off your LP, you have some options. ]

-qcb p

Claw is ideal when an opponent blocks a wheel or ES wheel airborne. This is one of Jedah's most high risk, somewhat high reward specials in his repertoire. The majority of the active hitbox is deep in the claw itself, whereas the rest of his body is completely open, and often enough you can get punished for attempting to claw too late. Use with extreme caution and personally, it should only be used if you can cleanly read your opponent when used any other time other than wheel or ES wheel. The ES version causes a glitch if connecting after Jedah is tech hit usually off his dash jRH where he will be pushed so far off-screen that he cannot be reached or hit unless with a homing move like Hell Grab or Hell Dunk or the like. Don't feel too bad if you can't connect this move easily, it's fairly poor in its versatility and reliability.

-chicken block

[ Unfortunately, chicken blocking with Jedah can be a both a problem and a necessity. Typically, if you are stuck in the air and forced to chicken block, your ideal normal is the jLK, it's extremely fast and can beat most follow-up chains from the block. But alas, some normals from characters like Zabel or Sasquatch or even wolf can seem to beat him no matter what he does. On the other hand, practicing with jHP or jMP or jLP seem to have their uses. Although very poor in reliability, in terms of fighting Fish for example and maybe others, air dashing may be one of the key things Jedah must do to get out of a bad situation such as bubble trap. Although that in of itself is almost a lose-lose for Jedah regardless, he does have a small portion of options. Otherwise, his chicken blocking game is decent, to say the least. ]

-preemptive j. lk/lp (chain cancel for reset overhead options)

[ Not much to say. It is ideal to do this as often as possible when jumping early and following up with any other normal, usually jHP. The reason is because in almost every instance, you will end up close enough to the opponent that you will throw them. In fact, it is one of Jedah's main priorities to throw if he's in range at any time and with enough practice, you can even bait TECH THROW attempts and improvise with all kinds of shenanigans. When opponents catch on, they will still often be chicken-blocked but be forced next to you, typically you want to use MP for the throw as it's the safest compared to HP on whiff, though that's not saying much. When opponents {are} reset, this allows Jedah to rush down immediately once he finds an opening or forces one with a jab or LK. On rising characters you want to try to use at least three or four normals such as against wolf, otherwise, you may find yourself being punished often. ]

- Pokes

-lp

-dash j. lk

-dash j.mp

-dash j.hp (is this the place to explain dash.hp, land, lp guard break or is that elsewhere?)

-show mp hit boxes as they are deceiving, also show ground hp hitboxes as first arm is invulnerable (i think)

-Chasing ground rolls

[ Walking to tick and throw the opponent on wakeup. Risky if they are good at teching. ]

[ Walking, dashing cross up or ambiguous, when teched, can still reach with crLK or crMP or even be attempted again with jHP, jMP, or jHK, or skilled jLK from a dash. ]

[ Pre-emptive wheel to force opponent to roll, often will roll behind you, but close enough to be active to attempt the above. A tick into the dash is very useful from this circumstance. On the other hand, if opponent is caught in wheel or ES wheel, can attempt 50/50 game with LK or dash jMP / jRH to try to force them to take damage from the wheel and be followed up. Can bait GC's too if skilled. Try to retain as much meter as possible though. ]

- Air-Game

[ Backdash into any normal and wheel. ]

[ Early poke from jLP or jLK into [ideally] jHP or sometimes others to force the opponent to follow your momentum if blocking you in the air for a throw or reset. ]

[ Dash into a normal and wheel, expect to be blocked or teched, goal is to have the wheel out. Sometimes a risky air command grab [ or Pinwheel Dive ] may work. The dive attempt can be useful for a throw once in a while. ]

3 - Specials

[ Hit boxes of specials here ]

[ Other than his Claw, Jedah has his wheel, aerial dive that can change into a pinwheel if pressing P during, contract, and almost useless command grab are what he's been given in this game. ]

-QCF + P = Wheel-

[ Jedah's wheel is his priority. It is necessary for zoning, meter building at times, chipping, but most importantly, to create an opening as he desperately needs any opportunity he can get. Wheel is active only when it's in the static position, as the wheel pops out, it is not active and the hitbox while it {is} active is fairly small. Each button decides a different height, whereas on the ground low to high determines low to high height. In the air, it is the opposite, so it is important to recognize when to use which strength based on whether you are airborne or not, and whether the opponent is going to be airborne or not or being pressured. Ideally, it is thrown fullscreen or somewhat mid, ticked into, or dashed into with a normal to allow you to cancel into it. You cannot neutral jump and immediately cancel into the wheel. For some matchups, the wheel can stop the momentum of some characters, while as you become more advanced, the wheel can grant some mind games where you find and create an opening as aggressively as possible. In short, use the wheel often, far away, and if you catch the opponent, that is your chance if you can find it. Wheels knock the opponent down if hit while airborne, on the ground it will not. ES Wheel is ideal especially in corners to create true 50/50, even if the opponent techs on wakeup, you will usually be close enough to do something anyway. Otherwise, although ES wheels are fun to throw out, it's a waste of meter if it doesn't do anything against the opponent as its range to hit is not that much better. Wheel or ES wheel is also best followed up with CLAW when blocked in the air especially in the corner. ]

-QCB + P = Claw-

[ Decent anti-air move for decent damage, but very slow, and risky, and does not beat many normals / specials with bad recovery. Ideal against certain characters like Lilith and sometimes BB Hood although it's a high risk for a decent reward against her. Best used when opponents block the wheel or ES wheel. ES Wheel not much better. Causes a glitch of Jedah is teched while connecting it, often with a jRH and landing to connect a claw. Must be used in such positioning where opponent is going to go deep into the claws but not close enough to hit or reach Jedah. ]

-HCB + K = Command throw-

[ Nearly worthless, used only as a joke or troll. One, if not, the slowest command normal in the game. Zero priority. Often gets you killed. Despite the damage, it is not worth doing anything with this move. On the other hand, if you're feeling lucky, during certain rushdown moments where opponent wants to keep blocking, you can whiff an air normal off a dash or just walk up and connect it. It's much better to just normal throw. ]

-HCB + K = Air command throw [ Catch type , can turn into a melee special by pressing P during ]-

[ Not much to say, risky, easily punished, but when used on wakeup or similar, or when a wheel is out, can get lucky to catch. ]

4 - Supers-

-HCF + KK = Contract-

[ Best used as a tick attempt, will connect if clean. Otherwise, risky super that often gets you punished more than it does any job of connecting. Only active when followed up with K and only if the opponent is standing on the ground, often can be jumped out of regardless of hitbox it seems. Somewhat waste of meter. ]

[ ES versions of moves ]

WHEEL = Bigger, better, stronger. Good to open up with rushdown attempts or even 50/50 if close enough to or tick throw. Often causes opponent to guard cancel at the end, meaning more time for you to punish if timed right. Otherwise, easily blocked or rolled away from, think ahead when using it to decide how to follow up if whiffed / connected.

CLAW = Deeper slash, move back further, more damage. Not much else to say, it doesn't help much in its purpose as an AA and whatnot.

AIR DIVE [ PINWHEEL ] = Not much else to say, tons of damage, much faster when he {does} go in for the catch. Otherwise, same punishable move.

5 - Mix-ups

-renda bonus with cr.lp, cr.lk

-dash j.hk crossups HOLD FORWARD, PRACTICE PRACTICE FOR OPTIMAL TIMING

-hk on the ground gets you a slooow move, hk too soon in the air gets empty dash, both easily punished

-double/triple overheads

-jump j.hk (whiff), j.mk/lk/lp/mp

-on tall characters can instant overhead j.mk/lk/lp on the way up, whiff j.hk, descend with j.mp/lk/lp/mp

6 - Combo's

-cr.lk/lp, cr.mp, STANDING mk, CROUCHING hk

-learn spacing for when to end in cr.hk, and when to end in hp/cr.hp

-stop combo at standing mk to maintain pressure (+1 frame?)

-DF cr.lp, up, lp, forward mp, mk, hk, down lp...

[ Ideally, you want to end almost all combos with a deep HP or RH of sorts, but it's even better when you end most combos with cr.MK or st.MK or similar so as to keep the pressure going. With enough practice, you'll have much better control of Jedah. ]

7 - Frame traps & Tick throws

-DARK FORCE TYPE = FLY, NO RECOVERY ON LANDING. VULNERABLE ON FALL AFTER DEACTIVATION, 1 FRAME VULN WHILE ON GROUND?-

Easily one of the most difficult DARK FORCES to utilize with great rewarding damage and elements when done right. Like all DF's, used for invincibility on startup, should be used with extreme caution as everyone can simply jab JEDAH out of the air or guard cancel him if immediately following up the activation with some kind of chain. Ideal use is when on the ground, tap up to do aerial normals since they count as overheads, and at the end of the chain, touch the ground by tapping down, and repeat the initial process to keep mixing up over and over. Throwing lows here and there is also key, staggering normals may sometimes be a priority as the opponent may be blocking too many normals and pushing you away. Otherwise, can be easily punished, forced onto the ground if chicken blocking, and can get you killed regardless. You can do ES versions of moves just the same in this mode. Professional Jedah's often use the darkforce for defense and de-activate immediately, which should be the way it is intended to be used. On the other hand, I myself use it in sheer calculated aggression, whereas if the opponent is good at defending against it, I can build momentum based on how close I'm keeping myself during the Dark Force. ]

----

The style in which I explain in detail and all other elements of this post in reference to the way it was organized is just my own, I'm not sure myself exactly how it was supposed to be set in the first place or how it was supposed to be limited so that it may be condensed further or in detail. At any rate, I threw in something to help. Because I like Jedah, and Jedah players deserve to know a thing or two that help them get far as I have, and hopefully, much much farther to surpass me and all other Jedah players that are doomed to have faith in him.

[doragonkoroshi]

Thanks for the helps dyne! Just remember this is going into a video, so we'll try to condense your text and show as much as possible, without forcing the viewer to have to read too much. You don't have to go into as much detail if you don't want.

[Kyle]

Jedah can tech a throw after ES-Wheel.

Thanks EGO

[Jais]

Flight to Avoiding grounded UBs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYd-1Efdhk#t=618s

Huge Punish on that Air Wheel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYd-1Efdhk#t=710s

2 bars for a legit 50/50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYd-1Efdhk#t=106s

Throwing with HK OS to punish DF activation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L-jWHNbFu0#t=286s

Fly out of the corner and maintain control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3PGQZLllT4#t=432s

[Jais]

BI Avoiding the UB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3PGQZLllT4#t=525s

LI Avoiding the UB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttYd-1Efdhk#t=438s

LI Avoiding the UB w/out meter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX71wmplA7A#t=228s

[Kyle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vECNFWKaNSU#t=3m36s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvY6HdxmzCY#t=1h51m42s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvY6HdxmzCY#t=1h35m40s

Jedah-

Claw x Wheel glitch is caused by Tech-Hitting the wheel standing and getting hit by the UB-Claw at the same time. Sooo cool.

From a reset a 6~[6] LATE j.hk is a weird cross-up in which the opponent CANNOT techhit & forces them to crouch, but than Jedah can Autocorrect j.mp.

After Jedah throws an ES-Wheel and confirms the air block, usually he goes for the UB-claw, However, most characters have an ability to stall their air mobility and avoid the claw after blocking the wheel. Shimatsuya was confirming their air block and then jumping into a full airchain to punish their movement options. Very effective at high lvl play.

Oouchi says d.hp infinite is “EASY!”. lol. just hold 6[6] and double-strum the J.hp. Saw him do 13-repetitions on SHUU Bishamon. We were all cheering.

Jedah’s DarkForce is a serious threat, it’s a get-out-of-jail-free card and when he is in the state all JP”s completely respected him and ran away.

The frame-trap mixup post Jedah’s airdash is to chain to J.hp. He can also delay the j.hp by a few frames in efforts to punish a chicken block. Regardless this usually setups a grounded UB or st.lp or cr.mk depending ondistance.

Doing IOH J.hk at a correct height to confirm a ground combo is critical. Input 6~[6] than hit j.hk as soon as possible. I recommend double strumming it.

Ground combo’s on hit always ended in st.mk for the +1 frame. Unless it was for the kill, than they would chain to cr.hk or cr.hp depending on spacing. Takes an experienced player to recognize where cr.hk would whiff & cr.hp is prefered.

Corner throw OKI w/ a low wheel than d.j.mp is really strong.

To input the pit super as a low-profile you buffer the inputs during cr.mk. contrasted to inputting 2, 5, 2+PPP and forcing jedah to stand up during the execution.

Against fireball characters, Jedah’s abuse advancing w/ 44~6[6] j.hp to confirm fireball punishes or stopping and staying at neutral.

HIgh lvl play has opponents trying to force 3-hit jumps-in against tall characters such as Jedah. however, the first attack needs to be very high. Jedah can recognize this, step toward than whiff cr.mk to force a low-profile and change the opponents spaceing. they will typically land BEHIND Jedah and he gets a free throw from this situation. Shimatsuya ABUSED this against Kaji & I.

[Ciccio]

One question about Jedah's normal throw:

Does his throw have some special or extra frames? because he beats my Cmd throw setup with one of his normal throw at least 9/10,for example: i reset him with an AA then i walk toward him and try to do the cmd throw (Hellcat), but as soon his feets touch the ground he just throws me away...this happens everytime with my OKI pressure too, i walk toward him for start a Close HP but he grab me instantly and if i try to do cl.hp a little sooner the attack just miss him (because he's waking up) and he trows me anyway

am i just bad or his throw have something that i don't know?

[Kyle]

When people reset from the air or wake-up without ground rolling, they get 5-frames of throw-invulnerability. You can win this conflict by walking (faking the throw) then 8-jumping and coming down with an air-chain into a super. Good luck

[Skankin Garbage]

If you're getting normal-thrown out of a meaty or semi-meaty attack, then there's two things happening here:

1. Your timing isn't spot on.

2. You are used to timing the meaty late, either to blow up tech hits, or because you've blown up so many that you think that's the right timing, now.

Either way, you can fix both problems by just standing a little farther back.

Also,

When people reset from the air or wake-up without ground rolling, they get 5-frames of throw-invulnerability. You can win this conflict by walking (faking the throw) then 8-jumping and coming down with an air-chain into a super. Good luck

I can't find any data that suggests people who roll don't have this same invulnerability, though. However, at least with a basic test, it looks like that's correct. Where did you get that info?

[Kyle]

...Also, I can't find any data that suggests people who roll don't have this same invulnerability, though. However, at least with a basic test, it looks like that's correct. Where did you get that info?

Last bullet on this page.

http://darkstalkers.moryou.com/savior/system-s/up-s/up-s.html

[Skankin Garbage]

I'm interested in getting a second translation on this, cos the English Translation of the page made a few years ago says something slightly different:

http://clientes.netvisao.pt/anpedror/recovery.htm

You cannot normal throw during the first 5 frames after recovering to the front or rear. However, you can command throw.

( Q-bee, Victor and Bishamon are an exception to this rule)

Though, for whatever it's worth, I think you are probably right, based on my own testing; I just want to be absolutely sure.

[Kyle]

What I gather:

- When you side roll, you lose your 5f of throw invul. This makes walk-thru mixups more effective on side rolls. No fear of getting thrown out of the setup.

- Only exception to this is a side roll + a command throw w/ meter, Vic's 720, for example.

[Skankin Garbage]

I had a professional translator translate it. I have his translation at the bottom in a link, but I've cleaned it up here, since it was translated with a lack of fighting game knowledge.

Original translation: http://pastebin.com/d1Db9JmL

My cleaned-up, understands-fighting-game-terms version:

* Forward/back recovery input lasts from being knocked down until recovery begins

* When knocked down with a sweep, recovery is 3 frames quicker than the numbers in the chart

* Immediately after using forward/back recovery, throws can't be used for 5 frames. However, reversal command throws can be used.

* (Q-Bee, Victor, Bishamon can throw after forward/back roll)

* Moves like Sasquatch's command throws and throwing-type EX special techniques (i.e throws that always have a whiff animation) can be done too, but if the grabbing frames are within the 5 "can't-throw" frames, then they will whiff.

[Ciccio]

but i can get throwed a lot by jedah even if he rolls, maybe is because every character have different wake up/roll speed so it fucks up my setups?

[BarcelSnacks]

but i can get throwed a lot by jedah even if he rolls, maybe is because every character have different wake up/roll speed so it fucks up my setups?

Have you tried to hop him with Lp or something like that?

[SoulGuitarist]

This thread is dead but I play Vampire Savior pretty often now since I got Vampire Resurrection from the PSN.

One of the things I found useful with Jedah is:

236P+P (blocked) > j.MP > 2LK > 2LK > 22P+P

Almost seems impossible to react to it majority of the time (or at least the people I played never avoided it). I think the 2LK x2 conditions the other player to block low and keep blocking low and since 2K has fast recovery, 22PP can be done almost instantly afterwards. You can go into EX j.P after 22P+P ends but I just recommend doing the normal version. 3 meter is enough already. Only use EX if you can win the round

if 236P+P hits, I think the go-to combo should be 236P+P > j.HK > 2LK > 2MP >  5MK > 2HP

Could replace j.HK with j.MP. j.MP is easier to connect and continue the combo but doesn't always work on the entire cast due to hitboxes.

 

[SoulGuitarist]

After getting bodied by a JP Jedah and watching a few in lobbies on PSN, I learned a few new things that haven't been discussed here much.

Firstly, the importance of approaching using his float. After a dash on the ground, Jedah ascends into the air for a few seconds. (Everyone likely knows that part. Lol) If you set the stick back into neutral, he descends. During this time, he can press a normal (j.MP if you are further away from the other player. j.MK If you are closer.) to float slightly forward. You can even link the two together ( j.MP > j.MK / j.MK > j.MP) while descending to land back down on the ground and can do one of his grounded strings. Though, the timing for chaining the two seems wonky. It's probably safer to do j.MP while descending, land, then play from there but if you can learn it, It's very good. Some of the Japanese players do a neutral jump after landing and try to hit with j.MK to start a combo. I only started seeing Jedah's do it recently. Characters with solid anti-airs though can beat it out. I think after awhile players will know to beat it out or dash out and it will become useless. They will likely go back to continuing the blockstring when they land. I think a good variation of the reset/open-up to possibly to experiment with would be to jump and do j.236P (Depending on you position on screen, that would determine which variation of the scythe you would throw out. I would probably do j.236MP at mid-screen and either j.236MP/HP in corner depending on character size) Maybe you can connect j.MP after and confirm a combo if your luck with the IAD.

Another thing I saw is semi impractical but rewarding. EX 236P whiff combos are a thing. They aren't set-up often because of how unlikely you can confirm into depending on your spacing but if someone challenges 5MK, there is a chance they can get knocked into it and you get a free combo. I don't think it's practical outside of novice/semi-intermediate play.