A call to arms for the hardcore BB and GG players

[Dacidbro]

The scene interview is mostly because there are lots of people who lurk on here and don't go into the Match Finder forum and some scenes get little to no exposure, so I figure this would be a good place for them to start.

I do also agree that we need to branch out to other communities. The EVO highlight video is being made to post on the front page of SRK and there was some talk here about preparing more stuff to get put on SRK.

I think what you're doing is good though. Keep up the good work.

Yeah, that makes sense. Which is why here, I would generally say "go to a tournament guys" over anything. Silly lurkers. :v

Thank you, I figure I have a unique opportunity to reach a lot of people, so it would be irresponsible not to take advantage of it.

[qwerty]

So yes, I have ideas for spreading and supporting the scene, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Dustloop or providing content for it.

this is something that people need to come to terms with; if this community is going to grow, it's not going to be because of dustloop. this place has already reached critical mass and there are simply not enough actually good/knowledgeable players here (on a regular basis) to help intermediate players (who are the most important asset of the fighting game community period).

i actually think the best chance gg (and bb) has at growing is branching out to srk (hopefully there will be a REAL way to play gg online one of these days so there'll be a good excuse for a gg subforum there). there's a good number of people there who played gg back in the day/want to learn gg, but simply can't be assed to regularly check another forum (and given the state of dustloop these days, i can't blame them, either).

personally, if ggac is ever on 360/PS3/GGPO2, i'll be doing everything i can to promote the game on srk.

as for bb: i lost hope for the bb community once i saw the change in focus around the time cs came out. by that time most of the old hat gg players who came out to try the game were already tired of it and weren't coming back; and once cs hit consoles the floodgates were open and bb decidedly became a story mode game with a tournament scene. it's more than just a stigma, it's people who have no interest in learning the game/improving taking up space on a forum that frankly never should have catered to them in the first place.

of course, it doesn't help that bb still isn't that great of a game, and likewise suffers from the same problem sf4 does of good players bashing it/not caring about it (and that IS a problem, like it or not). bb also suffers from other problems, including but not limited to the stigma against "anime games", which makes the uphill battle it faces that much more daunting.

how do you make the community grow? you can start by not being so insular and acknowledging that it might be a good idea to talk about this game more on the single biggest fighting game forum on the internet. srk, for all of its problems, is the best chance any game has at getting big, ESPECIALLY today.

[Dacidbro]

this is something that people need to come to terms with; if this community is going to grow, it's not going to be because of dustloop. this place has already reached critical mass and there are simply not enough actually good/knowledgeable players here (on a regular basis) to help intermediate players (who are the most important asset of the fighting game community period).

i actually think the best chance gg (and bb) has at growing is branching out to srk (hopefully there will be a REAL way to play gg online one of these days so there'll be a good excuse for a gg subforum there). there's a good number of people there who played gg back in the day/want to learn gg, but simply can't be assed to regularly check another forum (and given the state of dustloop these days, i can't blame them, either).

personally, if ggac is ever on 360/PS3/GGPO2, i'll be doing everything i can to promote the game on srk.

as for bb: i lost hope for the bb community once i saw the change in focus around the time cs came out. by that time most of the old hat gg players who came out to try the game were already tired of it and weren't coming back; and once cs hit consoles the floodgates were open and bb decidedly became a story mode game with a tournament scene. it's more than just a stigma, it's people who have no interest in learning the game/improving taking up space on a forum that frankly never should have catered to them in the first place.

of course, it doesn't help that bb still isn't that great of a game, and likewise suffers from the same problem sf4 does of good players bashing it/not caring about it (and that IS a problem, like it or not). bb also suffers from other problems, including but not limited to the stigma against "anime games", which makes the uphill battle it faces that much more daunting.

how do you make the community grow? you can start by not being so insular and acknowledging that it might be a good idea to talk about this game more on the single biggest fighting game forum on the internet. srk, for all of its problems, is the best chance any game has at getting big, ESPECIALLY today.

I don't think we see this in the same light. I have no problems with Dustloop, but good information posted here reaches the same good people every time. I'm just trying to go broader.

Also, how can you speak on the Blazblue community when you are decisively not a part of it? X_x

Also, to say Blazblue isn't that good of a game.. what does that even mean?

Edited August 9, 2011 by Dacidbro

[Kristoph]

Supplying content for Dustloop: good

Expanding content to SRK/other sites to diversify interest: better

Going to tournaments: best

mmmmk.

[qwerty]

there's no problem with dustloop right now because it's grown to a point where it's still capable of sustaining this community. but you're talking about growth, which this place cannot accommodate much more of unless there's some changes.

anyways i realized reading that post again that i muddled my own point (that's what happens when you have migraines for six months and can't even focus on a screen oh god kill me now) but here it is just in case you missed it: TAKE THIS GUY UP ON HIS OFFER. if you want gg/bb to grow, start letting the world know it. people obviously read the front page of srk no matter what the content is (i mean keits still has posting privileges there lol) so why not have them read something that isn't trash and is actually going to help the community you all claim to care about?

[SansProtocol]

Honestly, it's not just going to tournaments, but also one of the bigger games as well. There's two reasons for this line of reasoning:

1.) Your word means nothing to a lot of people if you haven't proved yourself in the overall fighting community. Secondly, if you beat the others at their own game, you show that you're not just good at the "reject fighter" as I have heard people say before. Then, you can advocate the smaller game that got you into the competitive scene on a bigger stage and to a wider audience.

2.) You can't expect people to want to warm up to and play your favorite game if you don't do the same with them. Having a "I HATE CAPCOM, BUT PLAY BLAYZBLOO WITH ME" mentality is not going to get anyone anywhere. This may detract from what I've said in the past but I've started to see the error in that.

That aside, I think that the "anime games" stigma is pushed more by us than anyone else. If you've never played the game before and saw a crowd of people that only played one game exclusively (and mostly avoided the others), I wouldn't blame you for looking at them a bit weird. Branch out, play other games that other people are playing, show them that BlazBlue matters in some sense and the fun/reward someone could have playing it. We're all a part of the fighting game community and I think that we should share a common interest in other games as well. We're all a little awkward/weird in our own way.

I agree that any posts on SRK's front page are good for BB. I would stress quality over quantity, but the more people see it, they'll get curious and ask the others at the local tournaments what the game is about. If you get that ball in their head rolling, you're golden. Hell, both sites would get more visitors and wouldn't really steal from the others. Posting stuff on DL is good but we need to focus on the forums section where everyone looks for information. We're not at the stage of a self-sustainable community or do we bring in traffic because of the front page to make it a primary concern. If we get exposure on SRK, those interested are here to look for specifics and not more news like which they had read to get the notion to come to Dustloop. We need to get video guides (or an equally streamlined idea) and a common format in which to present others with information on BB/GG. Artistic individualism is good and all, but we're trying to promote competitive gaming and information. We need mods to work together to make every sub-forum able to equally stand with the other. This means complete match-up threads, similar formatted information, and people that will actively give more time than they should for the good of the game.

Whew, that was way more than I expected to type. O_O

[Dusk Thanatos]

Dusk, do you think I don't know Blazblue? O_o Kind of don't know how to respond to that.

I was more complaining on informativeness of match commentary.

I don't really want to start a war on whether or not you're a good player here. And I'm a bit too nah to start shit, anyways.

[Star-Demon]

People I would want to hear on casts/interviews/whatever:

- Tourney players

- Developers

- Contributors

- active folks part of the community

I don't think we need to start saying "you need to be king of new york or win SBO or EVO to ride this ride". It won't help much if it was one or two (which it would be) people just talking about matchups or tournaments. They will run out of things to say and it'll turn into a personality show regardless. Show this game off at all levels and you'll be showing the community.

"Community" - not "clique". I think good communities work best together at all skill levels. You'll have something really awesome - I promise.

[Airk]

I was more complaining on informativeness of match commentary.

I don't really want to start a war on whether or not you're a good player here. And I'm a bit too nah to start shit, anyways.

I sortof went over this earlier, but there's just NOT TIME to do a lot of explaining in match commentary. You have to try to talk about something quickly but clearly before something else equally important happens.

Or, to put it another way, don't knock it until you've tried doing it yourself. It's not so easy.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I'm not saying match commentary should pull some psychic shit and explain the player's mentalities step-by-step.

What I do like to hear, though, is general, useful, relevant info. A decent example is when during EVO grand finals, the commentators explained the Litchi 5A whiffs on most charas crouching but hits Haku crouching, and is +3 on block, which makes it really good in that matchup. There was some Litchi player out there that prolly went, "Really? Awesome," and used it the next time they played against Haku.

[Star-Demon]

There was some Litchi player out there that prolly went, "Really? Awesome," and used it the next time they played against Haku.

Hi There!

Although I'm not a fan of the A button, in the past few matches of Litchi I've watched - I can't deny 'dat 5A and 2A.

that being said - It's not easy to commentate - definitely not.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Star-Demon

[Cobalt]

I'm fairly new to Blazblue as a scene (and 2D fighters in general), but I can at least remark on the commentary aspect coming from games like Starcraft 2. Dacid, I'm going to use one of the videos from Evo with your commentary on it as an example; I don't mean any affront to you but I think there are a lot of ways to improve your commentary. Specifically, I'll be using this match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQWBbSxmsGo

0:00-0:20 -- Not really taking about the upcoming match at all. There's no insight here as to how we can expect the match to play out; all that's said is "We saw a great Noel mirror, let's see how he's going to go in here" which is effectively equivalent to saying "Let's hope this is a good match" and doesn't really add anything.

0:20-0:26 -- The commentators remark that IkeTakeda gets a knockdown in the corner and starts to pressure Orikasa. The viewers see this, so you're only telling the viewers what they already know. Why not talk about the various options Noel has to get out of Hazama's corner pressure? Can she 2D out of any of his common blockstrings? What can she do after Jabaki or a blocked Ressenga?

0:26-0:34 -- Dacid mentions that "he's already trying to condition it". Condition what? It was never mentioned what was being conditioned, but this is the sort of the thing the viewers can't see; they would need insight into a player's mind like commentators should have in order to do that.

0:34-0:44 -- Dacid says that getting hit by counterhit 3C usually loses you the round, which is good. I didn't know that and I couldn't necessarily tell that from watching the match. This is the sort of knowledge I think a commentator should have, providing predictions and insight that viewers can't. However for the rest of the round, the commentary is only saying and reacting to what happens in the match. Again, the viewers can already see that; saying "he dropped his combo" doesn't add anything because it's already plain to see.

0:44-1:05 -- No match commentary for a while, but on something in the background, which I at least enjoyed. It adds a sense of atmosphere when there's not much to say regarding the match itself. Probably the best insight this entire game comes when Dacid says "Orikasa is too willing to mash", and then he once again gets counterhit.

1:05-1:20 -- Again Dacid just says something that everyone watching can already see: "This time he uses 2D to get over it." Then the other commentator says "Hazama's hitconfirms are a big deal; you can't use that Noel mashy stuff." I don't really understand what that's trying to convey, but that may just be a personal failing on my part.

1:20-2:00 -- As before, the commentators are just reacting to what happens. "Good counterhit", "Nice block on the overhead." What does this add? What insight does this give the viewers? They can already see that there was a counterhit and that the overhead was blocked. Later, "this will be relatively low damage" as the combo is two hits from finishing and is only at 2k, which again is obvious to anyone who's even a little bit familiar with Noel's combos. Given the likely audience, I think that was unnecessary. Then there's no commentary for a while. After that, just more commentary telling the viewers what's happening on the screen.

2:00-2:20 -- More telling viewers what they already know, except for Hazama trying to frame trap Noel's 2D.

2:20-2:42 -- This is really, really good. The commentators start talking about how bursts, guard primers, and meter shape the Noel-Hazama matchup. This is real, actual insight. Maybe it's not particularly deep, but if a person hasn't had a reason to think about it (and most wouldn't), then it's valuable information in how to look at the flow of the match.

2:42-3:37 -- Basically the same as before. Some minor insight regarding zoning/meter advantage for hazama, but still a lot of just saying what's happening on the screen. That isn't commentary; it's play-by-play.

The next round is more of the same but with a good bit of Noel 2D analysis in the middle.

From there to the end is the same problem of "telling the viewers what they can already see", but the point where the commentators analyzed Orikasa's mental state was pretty nice.

But yeah, beyond that, the thing I noticed most is the complete lack of predictions in the commentary. The entire commentary was reactive; they saw something and then said something about it. Commentary is supposed to both hype up the viewers and give them a deeper understanding and insight of the match than they would otherwise have on their own. The best way to do the latter is to tell the viewers how the match is going to go before the match even plays out. Using their own extensive experience and insight, commentators should be able to frame a picture of the match for the viewers in terms of what each player's primary goals are and how they're going to work to achieve them.

For instance in Noel vs. Hazama, how does that matchup play out? Does Hazama want to try to zone Noel with chains, or is the threat of optic barrel and her overall speed too much for him to do that? What are their tools for applying pressure and mixups, and how do those interact with the other player's tools to beat them? This works even better if the commentators know one or more players personally, because they'll be able to provide insight into how that specific player plays. Does IkeTakeda rely more on his overheads or lows for pressure? How good is his zoning vs. his close game? (I honestly have no idea whether or not Dacid knows IkeTakeda personally; this is just the kind of bonus insight you'd get if the situation arose)

You can get a lot more time in commentary doing this if you eliminate every instance of telling the viewers what they're seeing. "Great confirm into Jayoku" doesn't give viewers any more information. "This came off of counterhit 3C so it's going to do a hell of a lot of damage" does give information, because until that high damage happens, the viewers can't see it. Now they know to perhaps look for a burst depending on what's going on, among other things. They might already know it from their own experiences, but then you have to figure out what audience you're playing to. This is why the Grand Finals commentary was pretty good, since a lot of the people watching it won't have any idea about how Blazblue's specific mechanics work. If your audience is mostly people who haven't played the game before (e.g., Evo Grand Finals), then stick with more basic things and avoid deeper analysis. If your audience is made up of people who are likely to be fairly knowledgeable about the game (e.g., not grand finals since viewers would have to seek it out over things like SF and MK), then go for deeper insight.

I sortof went over this earlier, but there's just NOT TIME to do a lot of explaining in match commentary. You have to try to talk about something quickly but clearly before something else equally important happens.

That's the thing though; almost all of the time you shouldn't be talking about what's happening. The viewers can see what's happening, and you talking about it doesn't add anything to their experience. You should be talking about things the viewer can't see, things that require the insight of a smarter player or experienced commentator who knows what to look for. In the match I posted above, when the commentators started talking about bursts, guard primers, and meter as they apply to the matchup, that was good. When they started discussing how Noel's 2D affects the matchup, that was good. In neither situation were either of them saying anything about what was going on in the match itself, and that's not necessary; that information is already passed on to the viewers because they can see it.

I don't mean to say that deep analysis is the -only- kind of commentary you should have, though. If you want to have hype as your gimmick, that's completely valid, but again this can and should be achieved without telling the viewers what they can already see.

tl;dr Dacid says "nice x" and "good x" in reaction to things way too much in between his insightful commentary on matchups and resources, and I wish I'd get to hear more of that insight.

[Black Onslaught]

If this is wrong I just don't want to be right man

[Star-Demon]

Please do not throw the word "insight" around - it's too lofty to use when asking someone at a community event to step up to the mic and try to make both boring and not-boring matches exciting. Most people will never get enough insight, and what passes for insight is confusing.

Like it or not, Play-by-play is important. Not all of us like being glued to Noel vs Noel fights like it's a car accident. (Although Noel versus Noel *is* like a fucking car accident...) and some of us don't expect SOOPER SEKRET INSAITZ at EVO, where tourney players are asked to step up and be a part of the community by casting. The goal is to have fun - I don't have any real complaints, and for the TEN HOURS I watched, I was entertained and informed well enough.

This isn't pro-wrestling or Monday Night Football, and even Pro wrestling has heel commentators like Bobby the Brain and Michael Cole, and football has Dennis fucking Miller and John fucking Madden. Give me a break.

And then some people are never happy.

Cast the way you want to. Find your personality and strength and go with it.

Everyone else can try it themselves if they think they are better, more entertaining or more enlightening. Usually they aren't.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Star-Demon

[SansProtocol]

Yo, guys, can we get back on topic? I'm sure Dacid appreciates the thesis paper on how he can constructively improve his commentary, but let's get this back on track and show that we can have a discussion on the subject matter.

[Dacidbro]

Cobalt; Thank you for your analysis. If you think some of the things I mentioned about how Noel got around Hazama's attacks is too clear cut, I would suggest a deeper look into footsies, because while it does certainly look obvious that is exactly what happened, actually being able to see that it was intentional and specifically called out Hazama's attack is not so clear cut. Many people have the false impression that Noel can simply mash on 2D and succeed, which is what a lot of people would have taken from that round had I not explained some of the more intricate things Ike was doing to bait it, making the successful 2D's going around a specific move more impressive. Does that make any sense? Also, trying to operate "insightfully" is difficult with someone who is relatively new to commentary as a partner, but believe me I've looked into everything you said and I do apply it whenever possible. Anyway, thanks, it's all good info and I can still improve from what you mentioned.

Onslaught; Yeah dog

Thanks Star

Ok that's enough about me lets get back to the community. What are people doing individually to further Blazblue's reputation and presence as a fighting game?

[St1ckBuG]

Fighting game commentary theory.

Really dustloop? Really?

Fuck JUST theory fighting, we theory fight about commentary. Get on our level... GET ON OUR LEVEL.

[Kamui Moon]

i know i'm supposed to lead by example, i know that. and i'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. i know it's important. i do. i honestly do. but we talking about commentary man. what are we talking about? commentary? we talking about commentary man? we talking... we talking about commentary man. we talking about commentary. we ain't talking about the game, we talking about commentary man.

[Dacidbro]

i know i'm supposed to lead by example, i know that. and i'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. i know it's important. i do. i honestly do. but we talking about commentary man. what are we talking about? commentary? we talking about commentary man? we talking... we talking about commentary man. we talking about commentary. we ain't talking about the game, we talking about commentary man.

I hope you don't mind I'm using this as my biography

[Angel]

i know i'm supposed to lead by example, i know that. and i'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. i know it's important. i do. i honestly do. but we talking about commentary man. what are we talking about? commentary? we talking about commentary man? we talking... we talking about commentary man. we talking about commentary. we ain't talking about the game, we talking about commentary man.

Well done.

[Xie]

I'll help.

Actually, I'm really keen on starting a BB centric webshow pretty soon, I just need to finish up the sound tests, shave, become cured of Evola and I'll be ready to start producing. My idea is to make a Day9 type show about BB (and fighting games in general) to create a framework for thinking and learning about the game from point 0.

To meet that end, the first X (maybe 5-10) episodes will be pre-recorded and will be edited heavily to make sure none of the bases are missed. These episodes will be extremely beyond basic and might not appeal to anyone in this thread, but I feel like it's a necessary component for anyone either starting fighting games, lacks fundamentals, or has never played BlazBlue specifically. For example, these episodes would be about things like "What is number notation?" or "How do I move around?"

From there, if I can manage to keep it going or people stay interested, I would like to shift to a live broadcast format, where I'll start talking about more specific things. These episodes would be more free flowing as live shows, and would have topics like "How do I use my movement to be in the right place at the right time?" or "I HATE NOEL".

Good idea? Overdone? Ripping off Starcraft too much? TRY AND STOP ME.

[tataki]

I've sent SRK many of my CVs in the past but none of them made it to the front page, so what should I do? lol

http://shoryuken.com/2011/08/02/huge-marvel-vs-capcom-3-video-roundup/

See how this page looks like?

Basically take a bunch of new vids from different people and send them all together as a "BB community weekly update" of sort.

[tataki]

Hello everyone.

I'm just letting you know that I didn't forget our goal- I'm not posting on DL cuz I'm working on a special local project. I've took 6 people who want to learn to play GG and I'm developing a way to make it easier for them to learn the game.

It will take a while but I will post a report here when I'm done or halfway.

Please continue working on your own ideas in the meanwhile.

Edited August 10, 2011 by tataki

[Arvoyea]

This is something I wanted to do for a video. This is for using training mode to practice hitconfirming.

Enemy: Guard set to limited, guard reaction set to normal/just/faultless.

Counter set to First

Recover: Random

This helps you learn about reacting to landing counter hits in matches when on the offensive or defensive and use those moments as chances to land combos, using hit confirm. While the damage may lack, it’s better than having a one-track mind wanting to do only combos and not using spacing, block strings and hit confirm in order to gain some damage, and wind up shooting yourself in the foot, not improving in strategy.

[Star-Demon]

I was thinking of getting the folks to join me for Calamity Trigger interviews and casts where we could also play. We've done two so far, and I think with some format and structure, it would be cool to show that CT is still alive because of PC.