[CSE] Relius Clover Technical Discussion

[Urichinan]

Dusk, your write-up reminds me of how LK sometimes writes his combos.

Where everything is done in sections and routes rather then full combos by themselves. So it's done like:

5B > 5C(2) > 236C > 214A [Opener 1] > 5C(2) > 6B > j.B > j.C > j.236C > j.214A > j.C [ignis Route 1] > 2C > 4D > 3C > j.D [ignis Ender 1]

I think it's a good way to explain things, but I don't think it's good for listings.

[Critical Edge]

I guess we could put it in a section to explain the optimal or target combos for a possible guide or beginning section for combos and leave the normal listings for the more advanced stuff.

[Urichinan]

I guess we could put it in a section to explain the optimal or target combos for a possible guide or beginning section for combos and leave the normal listings for the more advanced stuff.

Target combos and important BnBs are going to be bolded in the listings, no need to give them they're own section.

[Critical Edge]

Oh, alrighty then. ;-;

[St1ckBuG]

I've been wrong about 2D this whole time. I'm going to test Ignis specials and normals today.

It turns out 2D has built in health, kind of like Rachel's frog. After 214A or 236A she gets full super armor.

I need to figure out if there's anything else like this.

Edit: Gonna stream myself in training mode for a bit http://www.twitch.tv/St1ckBuG

[Dusk Thanatos]

Dusk, your write-up reminds me of how LK sometimes writes his combos.

Where everything is done in sections and routes rather then full combos by themselves. So it's done like:

5B > 5C(2) > 236C > 214A [Opener 1] > 5C(2) > 6B > j.B > j.C > j.236C > j.214A > j.C [ignis Route 1] > 2C > 4D > 3C > j.D [ignis Ender 1]

I think it's a good way to explain things, but I don't think it's good for listings.

It's definitely a supplement to understanding, not a replacement for a combo list.

I just know it's easier for me to confirm on the fly if I understand how combos work in general for a character, so something like this is useful.

[St1ckBuG]

After playing for a while and testing things out, along with some help from CiticalEdge (and Achtzehn), here's what we found out...

1). Standalone 2D has projectile armor and armor against A normals. If she is hit with an A normal or a projectile during 2D startup/active/recovery she will just continue the move.

2). Standalone 2D does not have armor against B normals, C normals, or specials. If she is hit during the startup/active/recovery frames she will stop but not be de-summoned. She will return to behind Relius.

3). During the recovery state after 214A/214B/214C/j214B/j214A, her 236C/j236C follwups, and D normals where she is floating back to Relius: if 2D is input during this time she will gain super armor against everything. She is a truck during this state. Highs/lows, specials, any button, and any projectile will not stop her from doing 2D... except when Relius is hit :<

4). If 2D is input during 236A (Led Ley), she will gain super armor against everything, just like #3.

5). These armor exceptions do no have any effect on her other D normals or specials. She cannot give extra armor to any other moves other than 2D.

Also, 236A can dodge Yukikaze but not regular D button Hakumen counters.

[MashThat5A]

Do you remember if the Ignis gauge turns blue in the second case?

[St1ckBuG]

Do you remember if the Ignis gauge turns blue in the second case?

It does not.

Also, it looks like the Ignis gauge does not go down if she guards any type of move. Or at least it doesn't take off enough to be able to physically see it happen.

[Solex]

first off thank you stickbug for that info

and secondly i think the combo theory kind of thing works really well, we could have a combo theory post and then under it have a list of combos thats what they did for lambda in cs2 iirc

[St1ckBuG]

Doll 6D only uses 1325 gauge and not 1500.

You can do seven 6D's and still have some left over to do another move, but even the one's that cost 1000 will cause her to break.

This isn't game breaking or anything, but I thought I'd just share.

[Solex]

of course we want all of the info to be correct. thank you, if anyone notices anything else wrong i will gladly change it

[Kurushii]

The info was from the jp wiki so possibilties some info is slightly off. When I did the Revolver Action tables I had Crit check over some of the notes on the wiki and we checked it out in game. There was two or three errors they had on it. Just like I had some AH links they didn't have listed which is something dead easy to find. When I get home ill go over and graphically mark the cost in screencaps to make sure their isn't any other odd values before the combo thread starts kicking. Thanks St1ckbug for the notice.

[Kurushii]

Ok I tested the hell out of the drive gauge. When Ignis is active the pink bar is 100 pixels wide. So 100 energy per pixel which would make her be 10,000 energy total. All good so far.. Consumption over time looks to be ~60 a second. After screencaping the different moves I came to notice about half of them have a extra two pixels of a darker pink. No matter how many times I tried to capture it it always had it. While the other half always have a sharp straight edge to them. I inspected the recording I made of the consumption time while idle. I noticed it switches between doing 2 dark pink pixels to taking them away about every couple frames. So it can't be my capture card as it keeps the frame stationary for more than a couple frames and then removes. At first I figured the two dark pink pixels would be a value of half so 50. After testing the value adding up total cost repeating moves and checking the bar pixels it sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. Of course active consumption makes that a pain to fully calculate any of this anyway. In the case of 6D it looks like a solid 1400 cost from the screengrabs, but when used multiple times it is actually not and comes to looking like St1ckbug's guess of 1325. Moves with the 2 dark pink pixels are the following: 2D, 4D, j6D, 214A, 632146D, 236236D, and 214A.

Here is a image of the moves cost taken from screengrabs:

Now looking at it and going off the pixel to energy of 100 energy per 1 pixel, and <100 energy per two dark pink pixels. That makes everything wrong off the bat from the jp wiki: 6D (looks 1400 but more around 1325), 2D (between 2001-2099), 4D (between 1001-1099), j6D (between 1001-1099), 214A (between 2001-2099), 214B (1600), 214C (1600), 214D (1600), 236D (1600), j214B (1600), 632146D (between 1001-1099), and 236236D (between 2001-2099). Most of the ones with ranges look to be around 50 or less for the value of the dark pink pixels added. Even the other ones which look like solid 1600 cost actually look more like 1530-1550 when you do multiple ones and add the value up.

With all that said the graphical representation of Ignis energy is far from perfect to get exact values from. I say we go with the 6D change of 1325 from St1ckbug's find and keep the rest at the previous values until we can get some solid hardcore data. If we do get the correct data values later on we'll just go through and update all the values from the combo listings. #UpTooLateTimeToSleep

[Urichinan]

Very nice work Kurushii, with this information and testing in hand we can begin working on the combo thread.

[St1ckBuG]

I'll find all the exact numbers today if you want.

All you need is a little bit of math and a stopwatch.

[Kurushii]

I'll find all the exact numbers today if you want.

All you need is a little bit of math and a stopwatch.

Lol have fun St1ck. Yea it'll be nice to have exact or closer to exact values. :3

[St1ckBuG]

Yeah, after playing around a bit it looks like 6D was the only one different from the original table of values.

I guess they thought 1000 was too cheap and 1500 was too much.

[Achtzehn]

After playing for a while and testing things out, along with some help from CiticalEdge (and Achtzehn), here's what we found out...

1). Standalone 2D has projectile armor and armor against A normals. If she is hit with an A normal or a projectile during 2D startup/active/recovery she will just continue the move.

2). Standalone 2D does not have armor against B normals, C normals, or specials. If she is hit during the startup/active/recovery frames she will stop but not be de-summoned. She will return to behind Relius.

3). During the recovery state after 214A/214B/214C/j214B/j214A, her 236C/j236C follwups, and D normals where she is floating back to Relius: if 2D is input during this time she will gain super armor against everything. She is a truck during this state. Highs/lows, specials, any button, and any projectile will not stop her from doing 2D... except when Relius is hit :<

4). If 2D is input during 236A (Led Ley), she will gain super armor against everything, just like #3.

5). These armor exceptions do no have any effect on her other D normals or specials. She cannot give extra armor to any other moves other than 2D.

Also, 236A can dodge Yukikaze but not regular D button Hakumen counters.

Sorry St1ckBuG I have to fix some things I just did some testing. It looks like 2d has straight up super armor the whole way through. Natural 2d will eat ANYTHING, inluding ragna's 5c, 623c, 214a, everything. The reason we couldn't tell was that 2d was being done near relius and forcing him to block, which of course makes ignis stop (notice how you said it only works after 214a which puts ignis in front of and away from you). ANYWAY, basically 2d has straight up superarmor, and alot it looks. Alan if you want to test it to be sure that I'm not talking crazy, do it the same way I did and you'll see it plain as day. just have relius as the dummy and have him do 2d and IAD back, then attack ignis with anyone and watch your ass not stop her at all. As an added note, since I was writing this post while testing this out, I've determined that ignis will not eat supers that are not projectiles. I did carnage scissors and devoured by darkness during ignis 2d and both whiffed plain as day, however jin's ice wave super was super armored by ignis (this is all for 2d by the way). So 2d is like this godlike move that only sucks because relius is usually nearby when she does it.

As of this post you DEFINITELY owe me that 5 bucks on that bet.

[St1ckBuG]

Does the same thing work for other moves where you make Relius block and she stops, or is it just 2D?

I'm at work so I can't test right now.

Edit: Achtzehn is right.

1). If you hit Relius during any of Ignis's moves, except for supers, she will become unsummoned.

2). If you force Relius to block during any of Ignis's moves, except for supers, she will stop that move and float back to behind him (unless you used up all of her gauge in the process).

3). If you hit Ignis during any of her moves, except for 2D and 236236D, she will become unsummoned. These two moves have super armor to everything.

4). She will always armor projectiles, even during the start-up and recovery of her moves, summons, and supers.

Note: I did not test 632146D during 1-3 because it's hard to hit Relius and Ignis since it's fast, hits behind him, and she even armors projectiles >:|