[CSE] Rachel - Final Changes Discussion

[kotokot]

Still works in the videos I've been seeing.

I also saw a lobelia whiff fatal j.2c lvl3 in the corner (gamechariot vid vs Lambda), so it seems that they did put it back in, though I have my doubts about whether the midscreen version is still in.

rachel is much better than i imagined after reading jbbs. Still no videos with good rachels=(

[Rhannmah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVQ8jdhaA7Y#t=16m21s at about 16:21, the Rachel uses j2C and Carl blocks it, and she goes straight into 2A.

So, unless I'm seeing things, and it is early in the morning, looks like you can cancel on block to me.

You can already do that in CS2, so it's nothing new. What IS new though is that you can special cancel j2c on hit, as shown in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVQ8jdhaA7Y#t=17m25s which you definitely CANNOT do in CS2.

What is unknown is if it's special cancellable on block, too. Are there any other moves in Blazblue that are cancellable on hit that aren't on block? I can't think if any right now.

[Fluck]

There's a very large number of moves that are jump cancellable on hit only. As for special cancel, I know Noel's 3C is an example of a move that is only special cancellable on hit.

[Rhannmah]

Ok so they do exist. Might be only cancellable on hit.

[kodimt]

I thought I read they made j2C only cancelable on hit and not on block. Special or otherwise. Is there a reason to special cancel it on block?

Regardless I'm happy, because I happen to like IAD j2C 1D crossups.

I probably just thought that because it's now air cancelable, that was the only thing it could do. I'm retarded.

[Stonefist J]

The new barrier system is bothering me. Rachel's moves already pushed her back so how will she keep the pressure? I see know ground combos in her future.

[LuminAbyss]

The new barrier system is bothering me. Rachel's moves already pushed her back so how will she keep the pressure? I see know ground combos in her future.

Can't she use wind to get back in?

[Tari]

Ok so they do exist. Might be only cancellable on hit.

I'm fairly sure that j.2C is only special cancellable on hit. Refer to this video (18minutes, 2 seconds) to see why I say that. Rachel obviously attempts to do a pumpkin summon on the blocked j.2C, but fails and lands into a 4B instead.

I thought I read they made j2C only cancelable on hit and not on block. Special or otherwise. Is there a reason to special cancel it on block?

Probably the same reason you'd consider special cancelling something like 6CD into 214B, 214C, 236C, etc. Different types of pressure, pulling tools out in unexpected places, all that jazz.

In any case, I don't think this will matter, unless j.2C is actually special cancellable on block (unlikely).

The new barrier system is bothering me. Rachel's moves already pushed her back so how will she keep the pressure? I see know ground combos in her future.

Barrier goes away significantly faster in the new game. Rachel's wind allows her to continuously jump back in and continue pressure for as long as she has wind available. She's never really been able to do much with pressure without wind, so I'm not seeing a large change in the way she's played.

If anything, I'm still wondering if characters like Tager can punish 2C if they barrier IB it, seeing as how it's a level 5 move and Rachel will go flying away from the pushback.

edit: Also, the pushback on block only matters if the opponent is blocking. When you land a hit to go into a ground combo, it doesn't matter how big the pushback is, because they aren't blocking.

[Stonefist J]

That's where I'm worried! I'm not fond of areial approaches and with the pumpkin getting weaker I'm just wondering on how the spacing will effect her combos? 6B was my way of measuring the space and getting in and out but now I want to know the effect of it's CH?

[TD]

in ct she had a 4 way mixup from blocked j2c because it was cancellable on block (among other retarded stuff with the jump cancel). having that now would be great, but yeah, we dont. ._.

also, 6cd and 3©d eat barrier alive if the foe is barrier happy, even more now with barrier nerf: not to mention get you back in with frame advantage. wind in general gets her back in melee range. l wouldnt worry about getting in too much with rach.

rachel is starting to seem... better in this game, the more l think about j2c it.

[Tari]

That's where I'm worried! I'm not fond of areial approaches and with the pumpkin getting weaker I'm just wondering on how the spacing will effect her combos? 6B was my way of measuring the space and getting in and out but now I want to know the effect of it's CH?

You can still combo on CH, from what I understand, but I don't have any video proof to back this up at the moment. If you have a pumpkin out, you can also use the pumpkin to allow you to combo from 6B mid-combo, as well.

If you're talking about pure ground blockstrings, it's still possible to do that by simply using 5/6D during your blockstring. However, there's not much you can by staying on the ground for an entire blockstring. Not only is 4B limited to one use per gatling, but 5A and 2A can each only be used 3 times in a single gatling.

Even in CS2, Rachel's strongest mixup was her 50/50 instant overhead and low, the former of which even led into a fuzzy guard setup and arguably another 50/50 if blocked. Trying to keep your blockstrings limited to ground-only moves is handicapping yourself.

If you're talking purely about ways to approach the opponent, Rachel shouldn't be greatly changed. Get George in under your opponent, get some lightning rods on them, or use the pumpkin to cover a ground-based approach. The pumpkin is nerfed, yes, but we're not entirely sure of how bad it is (was it even reduced in level?). In the videos shown so far, it still works fine for approach and oki, so I see no reason to assume it will be significantly worse in CSE.

[Rhannmah]

Yeah, judging from the videos we've seen, pumpkin looks fine.

[Stonefist J]

Hm? thank you. I'm overreacting a little since I haven't seen a good video of what she's like.

[Rhannmah]

We haven't either, all we got are Tager/Lambda matchups, which are very shitty by nature

[tofurr]

Pretty cool new oki set-up midscreen:

CH6a, 5b, j.c, 2d, lv2 j.2c, 214b cancel on land, 5b, sjc, j.b, j.c, jc, j.2c, j.214a

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15862329 @7:35

[kirbster]

That Rachel that fought against Arakune and Valk is fucking awesome.

Could she always do this in the corner : blahblah 5cdc, 5©c into frog oki? Like, the second hit of the umbrella OTG's them... maybe it's character specific, but either way that's really good to know.

Less untechable time on CH lobelias is too bad, but we'll survive. Combos are still possible when reasonably close.

[tofurr]

I was wondering the same thing, I'm going to go try it out now.

EDIT: [...], 5cdc, 5c(whiff)c works in CS2. Though, timing feels a little tight. Tested on 3 DLC, Ragna, Jin, Litchi, Hazama, Arakune and Carl, so it should work on all characters.

[Rhannmah]

no you could always do that, it's just very unoptimized because in most instances you can go 5B j.C 2D jc j2C 5CC instead; maybe it's Rachel's best option now.

as you can see here,

Rachel's 5CC hits extremely low to the ground, i don't think any characters can escape it.

Also as seen in http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15862375 at 13:17, I can confirm that 6B is NOT wallbound, but WALLBOUNCE. It combos midscreen

[TD]

l believe that rach is ishii. could be wrong but he uses that color and he's pretty good with her.

5©c otg works in cs2, if you buffer the 5©c into the first 5cc, and the foe has to ve grounded (or you can use 2/3d to aid with getting them lower to the ground).

[tofurr]

I guess CH wallbounce is a fair trade for losing the jump canceling.

[Rhannmah]

I, for one, am really pleased with this change. I fetch for 6B counterhits ALL THE TIME so this is definitely gonna rape. Thank god, that batch of vids made me really optimistic about her again. That j2C special cancel is a godsend IMO.

[Tari]

Polka brought up the question of whether 6B was still viable for anything outside of CH poking, and I realized that I haven't seen it used outside of pokes and 6B > 236A.

Does anyone know if there's a video where a Rachel uses it for something like 6B > 3C or 6B > 5CC? I'm assuming that Rachel players may be too used to jump cancelling it at the moment, but from videos like the one in Rhannmah's post, where the Rachel spams 6B all over the place and never does anything afterwards (except for 236A, like, one time), it seems to be a question worth wondering about.

...

Also as seen in http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15862375 at 13:17, I can confirm that 6B is NOT wallbound, but WALLBOUNCE. It combos midscreen

Fortunately for me, I still don't use 6B very much in blockstrings outside of 6B > 236A. Force of habit from CS1~.

[TD]

6b is used in frog combos if that helps, like vs noel i'd do 5b 5cdc 214a dash 3c(2) 236a (frog hits) dash 6b 5cc...

otherwise the options after 6b are meh at best. 3cd catches jumpouts but can be punished, 5cc is a 1frame-trap that takes a primer but pressure ends there, 6b itself is -1 so you can wind yourself in from it and start 5a pressure with alittle conditioning. most of these options are gone in cse anyway. the only significant thing about 6b outside of poking was the jump cancel, lol.

you can also summon from max range if youve conditioned the foe to respect you. tk george was fun (its out in cse though :/ ) and pumpkin is still effective at keeping people pinned down.

[Tari]

The main reason it comes up as a question is the old CS1 problem of "If I accidentally hit 5BB, does my combo end there?"

And yes, I've yet to see it in frog combos (though we've also yet to see 4B in frog combos) or anything outside of what I mentioned before.

[Rhannmah]

6b is an excellent poke if you know your spacing and can fish for counterhits very well.

Also, how is 3cd punishable? At worst, it leaves you unable to take the advantage if ib'd