[CSE] Rachel - Final Changes Discussion

[TD]

thats what l meant.

l guess the gap isnt too large, more like it ends pressure for the most part. my b

[Sindelian]

I imagined CH 6B could be used the same way 5CC worked on a midscreen airborne opponent in CS1.

Throw down frog or A lobelia followed by winding them towards you and then combo mumbo jumbo.

[[SpA]Relentless]

Don't think 6B has that much untechable time. More likely they will be able to emergency tech.

Anyway 6B CH can be followed up midscreen without wind, I saw Ishii doing 6B CH > run up 5B (pretty much max range) > aircombo.

Also I don't see why 6B shouldn't work in a combo like max range 6BD > 3C anymore. Guess it's just not very common.

TD- Afaik 5CC doesn't take a primer anymore and 6B has more recovery ;(

[Bloom]

I imagined CH 6B could be used the same way 5CC worked on a midscreen airborne opponent in CS1.

Throw down frog or A lobelia followed by winding them towards you and then combo mumbo jumbo.

Airborne 5cc was one of my favorite things in CS1 because of the wind nonsense. CH 6B sounds like it can make for some interesting looking combos.

[Tari]

Relentless;1164573']...

Also I don't see why 6B shouldn't work in a combo like max range 6BD > 3C anymore. Guess it's just not very common.

...

It shouldn't be that uncommon. This is the exact reason that we're now wondering if 6B is only special cancellable on CSEX or if players are simply, for some reason or another, failing to gatling out of it on block into any other normals.

[[SpA]Relentless]

I didn't even think about such a possibilty yet. Would be nonsense in my opinion. 6B CH was ridiculous in CT, then they nerfed it hard in CS. They saw it was useless, so they gave it back its old gatlings and a jc. Now they're taking everything away again? Come on Arcsys

[TD]

at least its still comboable. without wind, even, which wasnt possible in the other games.

[Rhannmah]

Except in CT :razz:

[kirbster]

Now that you mention it, it's true that we haven't seen anyone gattling out of 6b... hopefully it's still in. Makes it so easy to hit confirm from a big distance.

[Kronikhall]

in the most recent video set that Rhannmah uploaded, the rachel player does 6BD3C

[kirbster]

Oh, thanks for the confirmation! Now I fully accept this new version of our princess. We got worried for nothing, ArcSys did a great job balancing her for this version.

[Rhannmah]

I dunno, I still disagree with reduced combo rate. Reduced damage would've been fine, but having to cut short already short combos is just bad imo.

[Tari]

in the most recent video set that Rhannmah uploaded, the rachel player does 6BD3C

Which video exactly? I looked through every match in this post and didn't see it used a single time, so we're probably looking at different posts:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15862226

Rachel vs Arakune 1:39

interesting stuff on both sides

Rachel vs Valkenhayn 9:29

(possibly more to come, I'll edit along)

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15862329

Rachel vs Tager 7:11

Rachel vs Noel 12:45

(edit 2)

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm15862375

Rachel vs Makoto 12:43

I dunno, I still disagree with reduced combo rate. Reduced damage would've been fine, but having to cut short already short combos is just bad imo.

It's not a big change, really. The damage from the combos generally only seems to have gone down by around 400-500. It just makes it harder to pick up combos from crappy starters. Rachel already has some of the best corner carry abilities in the game, I think it's probably fair to make it so that she can't both carry from greater than midscreen and get a lengthy BBL combo off of it that ends with full wind regen and double oki.

[Kronikhall]

Which video exactly? I looked through every match in this post and didn't see it used a single time, so we're probably looking at different posts:

actually...i think i'm wrong. i saw 6B5CD3C. sorry

[Tari]

Even that much would be nice. I haven't seen it normal gatling at all yet.

edit: for reference, Lamda v Rachel and Ragna v Rachel matches have 6B > 5CC.

[[SpA]Relentless]

New barrier indeed seems to have rather large pushback. In the latest Rachel vs Ragna match, erushi did point blank 5B > 2B > 5B against his barrier-guarding opponent, and the 2nd 5B whiffed. Think in CS2 it would've connected still, or am I wrong?

Better get used to starting pressure with 5A :9

[Rhannmah]

In CS2 it doesn't connect well. I've had 5b 2b 5b whiff the 3rd hit very often on barriering opponents unless i'm running towards them and using run momentum. Or wind.

[Tari]

5B 2B 5B only connects if you have forward momentum or start at point-blank. If your first 5B hits a barrier-blocking opponent outside of point-blank range, then the second 5B will whiff.

You can't even really correct for pushback by using wind, hah.

[Kronikhall]

Even that much would be nice. I haven't seen it normal gatling at all yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZqbrIaEl6Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=209s at around 3:54 has 5B (ch) -> 6BD -> 5C -> 3C -> frog oki

[Tari]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZqbrIaEl6Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=209s at around 3:54 has 5B (ch) -> 6BD -> 5C -> 3C -> frog oki

Yeah, that was the match I was referring to when I said "Lamda vs Rachel". I was too lazy to link it. xD

[Kuuhaku]

Having watched the few videos there are... proration on pumpkin is certainly mega butt. Pumpkin 2A 5B 6B did like 930 damage. Rachel players are intentionally cutting their combos short, but it seems like hime-sama still gets pretty okay damage in the corner. Mid screen... not so much. But to be fair, mid screen damage for other characters looks equally as butt.

I'm trying to see how I feel the new barrier system will affect Rachel. She has very gimped guard crush abilities and push back from barrier hinders her mix up game a lot mid screen... especially with 4B and 6B nerf. I find it actually very funny how in a few matches that even though both players had permanently one primer, neither of them went for guard crush and both just counter assaulted without caring about the penalty because it's not like you can go below one primer. 'Course this could change as the game goes on if guard crush becomes something worth going for.

On the plus side, since barrier now regens really really slowly, it might make 3 rod BBL guard crush setups worth it in order to drain all their barrier and put them in Danger state/force them to eat the hit. In short, her mid screen game now becomes very weak, but she now has a really useful tool for her corner game.

[Rhannmah]

her mid screen game now becomes very weak

Well this is just the thing, it doesn't matter because she can corner carry off a single grounded hit due to 6C

[Kuuhaku]

Well this is just the thing, it doesn't matter because she can corner carry off a single grounded hit due to 6C

Mid screen is not just about combos. I think you kind of missed the part where I was talking about how barrier push back would affect Rachel's mid screen game (meaning... they're blocking and not being hit).

Needless to say though, even if for some reason we were talking about combos. 6C has more than it's share of weaknesses... If it was the magical end all to Rachel's problems, then CS1 Rachel wouldn't have been garbage (IE- Corner carry isn't even really relevant if your character has a hard time hitting the opponent in the first place).

[kirbster]

Honestly, after going through the HELL that was CS1, I can't help but stay optimistic. IMO Rachel in CSEX has all she needs to compete.

As for the barrier pushing her back a lot, I'll just jump back in with wind xD

[Kuuhaku]

Haha. Yeah. It's not nearly that bad. But CSX hime-sama will have her share of troubles.

Mix up will become more wind intensive and you'll probably have to cut block strings pretty short before having to retreat and try again. Windless mix up will also be a lot harder to do. She'll also likely have a noticeably harder time against characters who decide to space her with longer normals (IE- You'll want to very selectively ORE GA BARRIER otherwise you'll end up in Danger state and stuff like Bang/Makoto's pressure game will become really obnoxious to deal with).

So... I guess the new barrier system is a pretty heavy nerf (affects both her offensive and defensive options significantly), but the plus side is BBL guard crush setups are now very dangerous (using your resources correctly to put them into Danger state is a pretty good reward).