[CSE] Rachel - Final Changes Discussion

[Kuuhaku]

It seems like it was a miscommunication on both parties, but TLDR; you answered a question about proration and untechability time with an explanation regarding hitboxes... which caused the confusion in the first place. I simply corrected so people would be less confused.

But needless to say, I don't think the answer regarding hitboxes would even really be relevant. To answer SPA's question of Matsu's combo v. why Rachels are intentionally cutting short their combos... the answer could be that the timing of the combo is now more difficult now because of proration nerfs (it's not only pumpkin, but her normals also have worse proration now according to the JBBS), and the other Rachel's do not want to risk dropping the combo until they feel more secure that they can get the full combo.

[TD]

-_- sigh, im really no good at speaking. working on that.

l do have a question of my own though. has the 'normal hitboxes changed' bit for rachel been confirmed in any way yet, if it's true? something about that sounds eerie, like something really good/bad happened to one or several of her normals. of course something like this would be hard to tell without hitbox data of some sort, but figured i'd ask. l hope its a big buff honestly, maybe a fatter 5b ^_^

[Kuuhaku]

That was confirmed to be a mistranslation. It actually meant that overall her normals have worse proration.

[Tari]

edit: Polka's on the ball with this stuff.

[TD]

another -_- for added angryness.

damn, was really hoping that was a real buff. le sigh. ty

[Kuuhaku]

If it makes you feel better, they may have improved j.B's hitbox since 5B 3D j.B (I don't remember if it's 3D or 2D) now works on crouching Bang outside of 5B CH. Or... Bang got taller when crouching. I honestly have no idea. Though I do remember someone mentioned that one of the earlier Rachel streams by a JP player talked about j.B a lot, so maybe this is the case. We'll see.

[Tari]

j.B may have gotten buffed. I'm curious to see if 5B 3D j.B j.C 5B works on standing Bang, now.

Even if j.B didn't get buffed, I still hope Bang's standing hitbox allows for that.

[kotokot]

3d j.b does works on everyone now, and i think on sitting haku/tager.

about char combo rate, it does not applies to hitstun/untech proration http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemGuide.html#proration

[currentlemon]

Wow, j.b seems like a nice buff. If that's the case we have a new corner carry combos.

[Stonefist J]

I'm confused here, does Rachel 5CC no longer break primers? Because here I see it being done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK_9qpmJ_I&feature=channel_video_title

[Kuuhaku]

1) Timestamps are your friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK_9qpmJ_I#t=20m45s

2) 4B breaks a primer. Player did 4B 5CC. Only one primer was broken.

More important note- j.B hitbox is looking pretty nice. I think it reaches a lot farther downward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK_9qpmJ_I#t=21m25s

Red box is roughly where the hitbox is in CS2, so it's pretty clear that the downwards reach got buffed a lot.

[Tari]

Makoto ran forward and inputted 2C 2A right as she got hit by j.B, hence the crouching counterhit. This is also possible in the current game, and it doesn't look too much different from the screenshot you posted--which, notably, isn't the frame that Makoto gets hit on. It's actually a frame or two after she gets hit, hence her being in her hit pose.

It's unclear how much j.B's hitbox got buffed.

[Kuuhaku]

From the CS2 hitbox viewer, 2C doesn't make crouching Makoto any taller on start up (in fact, it makes her shorter). Lol. That's actually Makoto's 2A. For j.B to hit Makoto crouching from that high up, I think it reaching farther downward is pretty apparent. This would also explain stuff like 5B 3D j.B connecting on more crouching characters. Even though Makoto ran into j.B's active frames and pressed a button to get CHed, it's pretty surprising that j.B hit from that high.

Rough representation, but Makoto's crouching hitbox ends right under where her ahoge begins and Rachel's j.B doesn't reach to the bottom of her sprite. Unless Makoto's 2A makes her significantly taller in CSX, I say this is proof enough of a j.B's hitbox being extended downwards.

[Tari]

Yeah. It definitely seems to be buffed. I'm just saying that the change isn't as big as you made it look.

edit: For reference, how it looks in the current game after Makoto gets hit.

Main thing to note when making the comparison between the two pictures is that, in the blurry one, you can't see Makoto's head, so the gap looks significantly larger.

Also, lol, it's her 2A. Whoops.

[Kuuhaku]

We'll have to see. But from how I'm looking at it, it seems like it at least reaches to the bottom of the sprite now... which is IMO a pretty big change. It makes j.B a lot better as a jump in.

Pink line = to show where height difference is between Rachel (idk if very helpful since no way to determine if same/similar scenario other than it's a jump in on crouching Makoto)

Red box = rough representation of where CS2 hitbox is/should be.

Not sure if this helps in any way. I tried to make sure the Makoto sprites were lined up since it seems like the sprites are the same size in both screen caps.

[Tari]

Well, whatever the case, it looks like j.B is a more viable air-to-ground approach option than before, which is nice.

edit: Yeah, the change is definitely helpful. From the comparison pics, it looks like the hitbox reaches down the far tip of j.B's animation. ie: The tip of the red part of Rachel's dress is lower than the top of Makoto's head in the CS2 shot, but is about level with the top of her head in the CSEX shot.

I actually didn't get a shot of Rachel hitting Makoto as high as possible, but the best I've done is only a few pixels higher, not anything as notable as the change from CS2 to CSEX.

[Stonefist J]

look closely 21:26 and also pay attention to makoto's primer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK_9qpmJ_I&feature=channel_video_title

[Tari]

look closely 21:26 and also pay attention to makoto's primer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZK_9qpmJ_I&feature=channel_video_title

Makoto used a counter assault. In CSEX, those remove one primer from the character who uses them.

@j.B:

Highest hit for Rachel j.B vs Makoto 2A in CS2:

as opposed to CSEX:

The pose for Makoto isn't the same, but you can see the very slight difference in hitbox between the top of Makoto's head and the bottom of Rachel's j.B.

It is worth pointing out that j.B's hitbox does appear to extend downwards slightly in the latter part of the animation, hence why the j.B is hitting Makoto like that in the CS2 image. The CSEX image is in the same part of the animation (best as I can tell), so the comparison still stands.

[Stonefist J]

Wow, that's a problem. Everything cost something and Rachel already plays a price in defense.

[Tari]

It's also beneficial to Rachel, even considering her guardcrush ability nerf, seeing as how many, many people use CA against her ridiculous corner pressure.

It sort of balances out. You don't have to CA to get out of pressure all the time, and the new IB barrier pushback will screw with a lot of pressure.

[Kuuhaku]

Tari- Yup. So... that's good to know. j.B's hitbox extending downwards more will make some stuff (IE- hitting crouching Litchi), much easier.

[Tari]

In the CS2 image, the tip of j.B reaches down to around Makoto's neck. In the CSEX one, it appears down to around halfway down her face. It's really hard to tell.

You could also try to compare the tip of j.B to the location of Makoto's elbow (not the gadget on her arm, just the elbow itself).

In any case, it definitely doesn't help that the Makoto chose a color that barely shows up against that background, or that the video itself is so low-res that everything has a horrible blur around it.

edit:

It could be the same, I suppose, if the blurry parts of the image turn out to be the actual frame (wouldn't be too surprised, due to the way some videos are recorded) of contact between Rachel and Makoto. If that's the case, too bad.

Even then, including the blurry parts, it still looks like it might be a bigger hitbox than before.

Until you find evidence that suggests otherwise, anyway, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[Kuuhaku]

TD- You know hitboxes aren't measured by where the sprites are... right? Rachel's j.B (for the most part) only hits in front of Rachel.

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/rachel/j.B.html

Tari's example is the highest j.B would hit on Makoto 2A in CS2, you can see where the attack is hitting Makoto's head (it is hitting her head and not her tail as the big sharp part of the blade actually has no hitbox). In the CSX one, there's a clear gap between Rachel's sprite and Makoto's sprite... and that gap shows that j.B is hitting Makoto much higher than where it would hit in CS2.

http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/makoto/2A.html

Here's Makoto's 2A hitbox for reference.

Pink line = top of Makoto's 2A hitbox.

Empty red box = approximation of how much further j.B reaches.

[TD]

oh wow.

l missed this. in the second pic makoto is getting ch'd. l guess since she wasnt as glaring red as in the first pic my brain skipped that piece. now l kinda feel silly.

so im going to delete my earlier post then. and probably just not say anything else u.u my bad guys.

[gli]

Great! I'll add the j.B change as a (possible) buff.