[CSE] Makoto Nanaya Changes Discussion Thread

[Crosell]

With that said, I still miss CSI asteroid vision and want it back. =/

We all do, we all do

[OmniSScythe]

I've been watching every video of Makoto that I could find. In all honesty, I found a grand total of about 8 matches with her (yes, really that was it). And of those matches, do you know how many victories there were and against whom? It was 2 wins, one against a Tsubaki and one against Taokaka. Yeah, that was all. And not very good ones either. The rest consisted of non-stop beat-downs that made Makoto look like a sandbag.

Its, really rather depressing if you ask me. In fact, I am almost in agreement with people calling her the new "CS1 Rachel". I say almost, because unlike her, Makoto can still do some potent damage. But just looking at the wins, the amount of work the Makoto players had to do in order to just barely scrape by a win is damn near equivalent to CS1 Rachel's personal battles. I realise its been barely a week since Extend came out but this is really not looking good .

I can honestly say that every one of those players were horrible or new and not because of Makoto's changes including Keita who just got rolled over in his match.

Her CS2 normals and basic mix up are still there, it just wasn't being utilize at all.

[Eshi]

This Makoto was fun to watch: 1 and 2

[Nini Heart]

I wish we could get CS1 Makoto with a 30%-50% damage reduction.

[excelence]

50% is quite brutal, even for Makoto~~~

[Yoshara]

Examples:

2C: Same move proration is probably justified, however making it almost impossible to land it outside the corner is hurting her variety and options. Not a stand alone problem because of changes to orb/asteroid vision and shooting star.

5D/2D/j.D: Changes to add repeat proration to any level of those moves, especially when it comes to 2D and 5D killed plenty of chances to variety her options, it's basically level 3 charge only now for the most part.

Shooting star: While it might still be good for character specific corner push the fact that you can only wall bounce on CH with a already gimmick move is a strong lost. Having wall bounce, even if you couldn't had continue a combo off it would had still be useful for setting up oki situations outside of the basic orb stuff which is already strong now if you knew how to utilize it.

Break Shot: They basically made the original lvl 3 CH only and the new one over charged lvl 2D, if you can follow it up midscreen with dash 5B like in CS1 then it can be really interesting to see it be a standard off good starters or rapid cancel.

Mars Chopper: Holy crap the proration on it looks good, sadly without rapid just landing is the same as Hazama's 214D~A but even more risky.

Space counter: Proration nerf is justified but with her changes she probably should had kept it.

Just gonna respond to some of these:

2C: How is it that you can only land it in the corner now (no sass, legit question)?

5D/2D/j.D: From what I have seen they all are still treated as seperate moves, so you can still do a 5D level 2 RC into a combo and still be able to throw in a 5D level 3. Really, it looks like it was just there to remove the 2D lvl 1 > 5CC mini loop, but not to remove that as a combo option entirely.

Shooting Star: Well, it might be good depending on how much faster it is, because right now (CS2) it might as well not have any invincibility frames (frame 1 - 6 invincible, but starts up in 22 frames), but it looks like they might have changed it so it can be an oki ender in combos.

Break Shot: It might be possible to combo off of it midscreen, considering how it is followed up in the corner, but that is a big might.

Mars Chopper: Really, they just traded it's comboability with Stargazer, which makes sense, considering the normal rule of mixup is "Block low, react high".

Space Counter: I still think CS2 parry is the only thing of Makoto's that was legitimately broken (everything else was dumb, but the parry is what put her over the top), due to it being a reversal that you could setup an offense with, so I am okay with some of the nerfs. Judging by said nerfs, they were trying to make it less of an all use reversal, and more of a counter reversal/good read move, to give it a different use from Corona Upper.

EDIT: Apparently you can link 5A off of Mars Chopper on Tager in CS2. What this means for CSEX is if they lowered the pushback on Mars Chopper, and kept the frame data the same, we might be able to combo off of Mars Chopper meterless, but of course that is a big maybe.

[HIGEKING42]

i hope you can combo off it meterless.

[Eshi]

2C: How is it that you can only land it in the corner now (no sass, legit question)?

It's not literally impossible, but the decreased untechable time on 2D LV3 probably makes it impossible to combo 2C from it without the corner and that is the main way. She can still combo into it, but it takes something like 5D LV2 RC, or CH 5C.

[StarGazer]

I hope we still have a good Tager&Hakumen Combo in CSEX or this Match up will be a huuuge problem for us.

CS2 Makoto is boring? dude i will be honest, she is moderate in funfactor and in my hand i see her as the funniest character in BB. Dive whiff 2362366D, 5B CH > confirms, LVL1 2D juggle combos, the insane amount of uses for parry (Not broken), how i can do a lot of combos and all of em give me near the result of Opt combo, the gold burst combos, how she can do some stuff in midscreen and i have more reasons.

in CS1 Makoto is the best in my opinion, she had her signature in the game with her epic D combos, epic 3C, fast 236A, SS gatling to 2/5D, viable to use BBS out of combos. when you play CS1 you feel that you really play Makoto, in CS2 she lost some varity and in CSEX she just lost everything even her combos are ugly now.

sigh i don't think QQ'ing will fix up anything or help me, i will just suck it up and play with my boring and hated waifu <3

no need to correct me, this is just my feelings about the new Makoto ignore it. oh and lol @ the ppl who say: she is now hard and take skill to win her matches and her combos now are harder and stylish because its not.

[OmniSScythe]

"2C: How is it that you can only land it in the corner now (no sass, legit question)?"

No your right since it seem I did forget to proof read that sentence.

What I meant was it was almost impossible to follow up with 2C off of 2D, PF and LA's and not to meantion 2D lower hit stun making them tech if 2C was gonna reach in time.

"5D/2D/j.D: From what I have seen they all are still treated as seperate moves, so you can still do a 5D level 2 RC into a combo and still be able to throw in a 5D level 3. Really, it looks like it was just there to remove the 2D lvl 1 > 5CC mini loop, but not to remove that as a combo option entirely."

Then I can honestly say there's hope for her to evolve yet. 2D(1) is gonna really help her mid screen options, hopefully one of my WIP CS2 to CSEX combos routes "PF > 2D(1)" is gonna expand her combos options. Also with 214A~C new untech time buff I'm completely sure a combo like 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 5A or Dash 5A > 6A > 2D(1) will work.

"Shooting Star: Well, it might be good depending on how much faster it is, because right now (CS2) it might as well not have any invincibility frames (frame 1 - 6 invincible, but starts up in 22 frames), but it looks like they might have changed it so it can be an oki ender in combos."

Even if it got faster it can still be beating out with mashed out jab or hell a grab way before it hits.

"Break Shot: It might be possible to combo off of it midscreen, considering how it is followed up in the corner, but that is a big might."

Which is why I was hoping it to work like CS1 overcharged 2D(2) which you can follow up on, CS2 overcharge goes to far mid screen.

"Mars Chopper: Really, they just traded it's comboability with Stargazer, which makes sense, considering the normal rule of mixup is "Block low, react high"."

Mars Chopper in both CS1 and 2 you can follow up on anyone with dash 2A, I even showed it used in a prorated combo into an astral for my CS1 combo guide. However with CSEX I believe I saw a Makoto get counter hit with 5A by arakune but he may have been standing up.

"Space Counter: I still think CS2 parry is the only thing of Makoto's that was legitimately broken (everything else was dumb, but the parry is what put her over the top), due to it being a reversal that you could setup an offense with, so I am okay with some of the nerfs. Judging by said nerfs, they were trying to make it less of an all use reversal, and more of a counter reversal/good read move, to give it a different use from Corona Upper."

Damage sure, otherwise parry still had risk to it since it was still and always was a reactionary tool.

Also I like how everyone actually having a discussion now, keep it up guys.

[Kimchi]

Mechanically She seems to be the same character. Her actual normal moves used for footsies and spacing don't really seem to be hindered. Outside of her new combo routes, she's seems to be essentially the same character. If your footsies and Spacing is on point i think you'll be ok. Also i haven't seen any CH5b into 2C in any Extend makoto videos. Is it still possible? Confirm or deny. Or is it just that midscreen, you can't do anything with it anymore. I did see a CH5C into 2C get bursted though.

New Makoto Footage here

[StarGazer]

Got a lot of stuff from this video.

-Mars Chopper no longer forces crouching

-Combo: 2C > 214AA > 5CC 2D(1) > 5B 6A > Aerial

-Combo: 2C > 214B > j.C j.B > jc jD > ???

-Combo: 6BC > 5D > 214ACB > 5B 6A 2D > j.D > 662C > 236A~D > 5B 6A > j.C j.B > j.C j.B > DP (The j.D after 2D seems really strict)

Some of Makoto changes were not necessary like the remove of 5B CH > 662/5A and the whole nerf of Parry is too much as its now DEAD move from being a viable move.

Agree, Makoto is still solid and strong, no need to worry about ending up as CS1 Rachel. If you are good player then i can assure that your Makoto will rock as she doesn't need any special practice or learning, she only need a very good footsies and to know how to mix up and pressure etc.. the things that all characters share.

[Kimchi]

I really don't like the Nerf to parry myself but, I guess their idea behind it is they want to limit "guess parrying? o0". Getting at least 5k off of a guess parry hit confirm combo. If your smart with it , it will be still as effective though. No matter, i can't wait getting counter thrown/hit out of it. -_-

[StarGazer]

but they reduced the Parry proration and the new Makoto combos midscreen will mean the Parry is not as harmful as it used to be. Parry is really a funny creative move, its like an offensive reversal more like Makoto style you can put it in your mix up, pressure, OS's. With the Parry death Makoto well... you know what i want to say Dx

[Nini Heart]

Parry has been nerfed continuously since CS1, and I have to say I can see why.

Does anyone know if close range break shot still breaks 2 primers? Also did lightning arrows suddenly become useless in combos or something? I haven't seen a single one so far:(

[StarGazer]

it seems impossible to put lightning arrow in any combo. at first glance i thought that 5B 6A 2D > 214BD will work but i was wrong as the 2D launch lower now, plus the new AV path seems to be a trouble for lightning arrow land in a combo.

[Exciel]

Space Counter: I still think CS2 parry is the only thing of Makoto's that was legitimately broken (everything else was dumb, but the parry is what put her over the top), due to it being a reversal that you could setup an offense with, so I am okay with some of the nerfs. Judging by said nerfs, they were trying to make it less of an all use reversal, and more of a counter reversal/good read move, to give it a different use from Corona Upper.

For the record Space Parry isn't a reversal. As far as I know it starts up 2 frames after the 46 input to prevent it from being a frame 1 reversal.

Edit: Man not being able to combo off the air throw is a real dick move. The clunky recovery is sad.

[Luminos564]

Mechanically She seems to be the same character. Her actual normal moves used for footsies and spacing don't really seem to be hindered. Outside of her new combo routes, she's seems to be essentially the same character.

New Makoto Footage here

2 things I have to say about that video:

1. Is it me, or is Makoto just plain..."slow" now? I mean, back in CSII, I recall her attacks being pretty damn fast and unless she was using a Distortion, there were times where I could just blink and I was already on the receiving end of about 5 attacks strung together. Come CS: Extend, and I feel like my eyes need to allow the character to keep up with them. Mars Chopper and her air throw being the most obvious.

2. The 1st match made me feel rather uneasy as the player, despite his PSR, wasn't even able to reach 3K damage. He got better in later matches but the more I watch, the more it looks like a good majority of her Makoto's moves really have no place in her combos. Its like you were given a fully loaded AK-47 and then told you're only allowed to use 1/3 of the actual ammo.

Really hope that as time goes, people get figure out something that gives her an edge, because right now, its proving some people's claims that her place is at the bottom of the barrel.

[Kimchi]

New Makoto Footage here

Something i just saw. I'm not sure if the player dropped the combo or not, but at 4:42 it looks like 214A~B will not combo if they are standing. >_>. Any other time when he got the hit confirm when they are standing he does the infinite rush combo instead and a couple times against the tsubaki and the hazama player, 214A~B comboed but they were crouching. I'm wondering if this is true. I don't know i feel about this.. >_>

[Crosell]

it seems impossible to put lightning arrow in any combo. at first glance i thought that 5B 6A 2D > 214BD will work but i was wrong as the 2D launch lower now, plus the new AV path seems to be a trouble for lightning arrow land in a combo.

Doesn't seem like it, if you use it you'll probably be fishing for a fatal counter hit with it.

[Exciel]

Something i just saw. I'm not sure if the player dropped the combo or not, but at 4:42 it looks like 214A~B will not combo if they are standing. >_>. Any other time when he got the hit confirm when they are standing he does the infinite rush combo instead and a couple times against the tsubaki and the hazama player, 214A~B comboed but they were crouching. I'm wondering if this is true. I don't know i feel about this.. >_>

This seems to be true. Read it off jbbs early on so I had suspicions before but it seems to be pretty apparent now, Star Gazer is slower than before. It's to prevent ...5CC 214ACB 2A etc. standing combo.

[Yoshara]

Something i just saw. I'm not sure if the player dropped the combo or not, but at 4:42 it looks like 214A~B will not combo if they are standing. >_>. Any other time when he got the hit confirm when they are standing he does the infinite rush combo instead and a couple times against the tsubaki and the hazama player, 214A~B comboed but they were crouching. I'm wondering if this is true. I don't know i feel about this.. >_>

That seems to be the case. I guess they were trying to prevent a character from having 3k midscreen, without a good confirm.

EDIT: Now I know why they removed 5CC comboing into 6B unless on crouch, and why 6B no longer forces crouch. It was to prevent her from having this as the go to bnb (because of how much more damage it does compared to every other meterless midscreen combo), and force her to vary up her combo's.

[Nini Heart]

Wouldn't we be able to do 6C>214A-C-B then?

[Yoshara]

Actually, that might be possible. Too bad none of us have access to this game, otherwise so much science would be happening right now.

[Luminos564]

Here's some more matches for the road: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNtXTMRoySY&feature=channel_video_title

Makoto vs. Valkenhayn (1:38~3:01)

Makoto vs. Arakune (19:06~23:42)

Tough, the 1st one is likely to put anyone here into cardiac arrest, the 2nd match at the end somewhat makes up for it. Its interesting to note that despite 214C~C~C connecting, the uppercut animation did not connect at the end and Arakune was able to dash away in the 1st round .

EDIT: More matches to be seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmuf-iVZMJk&feature=channel_video_title

vs. Noel (5:16~8:36)

vs. Tager (23:55~28:18)