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shtkn

[CSE] Jin Changelog

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Jin mirror, starting positions, dummy is set to "2D > 5C."

I instant barrier block, then dash 5C. We trade.

Since instant barrier block reduces blockstun by 2 frames and dash 5C is 11 frames, 2D is +1 on block. :gonk:

EDIT: Even though 2D is still +1 on block, it's actually much worse in terms of real advantage than that value would suggest (due to spacing). And, given how easy it is to instant block, it's a pretty bad pressure tool now.

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I hope that what you're saying turns out to be false when the frame data gets released, I really, REALLY, hope it's false if not...

-___________________________________-

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Jin mirror, starting positions, dummy is set to "2D > 5C."

I instant barrier block, then dash 5C. We trade.

Since instant barrier block reduces blockstun by 2 frames and dash 5C is 11 frames, 2D is +1 on block. :gonk:

EDIT: Even though 2D is still +1 on block, it's actually much worse in terms of real advantage than that value would suggest (due to spacing). And, given how easy it is to instant block, it's a pretty bad pressure tool now.

Lol makes sense... I was wondering why dash 5b kept losing to ragna's 2a when he IB'ed 2d :[

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Lol makes sense... I was wondering why dash 5b kept losing to ragna's 2a when he IB'ed 2d :[
Yeah, this is what made me doubt the frame advantage of 2D in the first place. Even if they IB it, it should still be plus on block. I'm getting mashed out of 5B which should not happen =(

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I played with some guys from the local Tampa scene yesterday. Yeah, 2D doesn't work real well as a frame trap anymore... I kept getting punished after 2D. I found it's better to run on intermittent pressure, using 2D and other things to gradually break their guard. People seem to forget that 2D breaks primer.

That said, this is going to sound dumb, but how do you instant block? Do you have to press barrier block within a time frame, or do you have to press 4 or 1?

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I played with some guys from the local Tampa scene yesterday. Yeah, 2D doesn't work real well as a frame trap anymore... I kept getting punished after 2D. I found it's better to run on intermittent pressure, using 2D and other things to gradually break their guard. People seem to forget that 2D breaks primer.

That said, this is going to sound dumb, but how do you instant block? Do you have to press barrier block within a time frame, or do you have to press 4 or 1?

For regular IB, you just press 4 or 1 right before the opponent's attack hits (I don't know the exact amount of frames before the attack). I'm quite sure for a barrier IB you're allowed to hold A+B, but you must press 4 or 1 the same as a regular IB.

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Ah there are two types then.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but theoretically you can block the first move by pressing 1 or 4, and then let go of the button and you will continue to block as long as they don't use a frame trap, right? So then, as long as you block the first move you can let go and then try to instant block by pressing 1 or 4 at the right times? Sorry for the dumb question, but I've never really been given a good explanation how to instant block during pressure.

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My understanding says you will block an attack so long as you are holding 1 or 4 the instant before the attack connects. Upon a successful block, you may return to neutral while waiting for the attack to finish without taking damage. But after said attack finishes, you must input 1 or 4 again to block the next attack. If you do it too early you will normal block. Do it right before the attack and you will instant block. Do it too late and you will get hit.

EDIT: Blocking multi-hit attacks I'm going to let someone else explain; I probably don't remember how blocking them works exactly.

**IGNORE**For multi-hit attacks, you must hold 1 or 4 for each hit (i.e. if you hold 1 or 4 only for hits 1 through 6 of an opposing Jin's Sekkajin, you will block hits 1-6 but the 7th and 8th hit will hurt you if you don't input 1 or 4 again before hit 7 connects). If you IB the first hit, you automatically IB the remaining hits of the attack (even if you continue holding 1 or 4 without going neutral after each hit), but don't get any extra heat gain. If anyone knows more, feel free to speak up; I could be missing a few things. **IGNORE**

***

Regarding efforts to calculate 632146D damage, *finally reads Hiyoku Getsumei numbers on jp wiki* what the heck kind of contorted min damage is this?! 20% min dmg for arrow 1, 10% min damage for arrows 2-23, and 20% min damage for arrow 24. No wonder I had so much trouble with min damage. Aside from min damage, I think I've come really close, but I'm still having more error than I want. It's likely that the problem is due to me not nailing down the precise rounding methods used when applying proration. Here are a few combos that differ from predictions by over 1%:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJli9JQzMSE#t=11m37s

5B > 5C > mash C > 632146D (Difference of 12 damage)

504 > 943 > 1572 > 2757 (Calculated)

504 > 943 > 1572 > 2745 (Observed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hq48yJMFWw#t=12m20s

j.2C>5B>5C>mash C>6C>632146D (Difference of 17~18 dmg)

700 > 1062 > 1453 > 2013 > 2327 > 3283 (Calc)

700 > 1062 > 1453 > 2013 > 2328 > 3249 (Obs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXEexjxUZZY#t=3m20s

5B(1)>5C>6C>632146D (Difference of 18~19 dmg)

350 > 789 > 1272 > 2737 (Calc)

350 > 789 > 1273 > 2719 (Obs)

****

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the mook says that the last hit of ice arrow of 10% min damage. the rest of the hits have 20% min damage

base damage: 800, 100x22, 1100

this equates to min damage of 710. does that fit the observed values?

as for hte blocking stuff, yes you are correct Jyousa.

when you IB, you need to do it within a specifci window before the attack strikes. if multiple attacks are within that window, then you will IB all of those attacks. however, you will only get the extra 3% heat once. this is easiest to see by blocking lambda's 6C.

i have no idea how you got that info about blocking sekkajin, but it sounds completely wrong to me

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when you IB, you need to do it within a specifci window before the attack strikes. if multiple attacks are within that window, then you will IB all of the attacks. however, you will only get the extra 3% heat once.

So, do you still get the +3 frame advantage from IB'ing a multiple-hit attack if you IB the first hit? I always wondered about this and it'll make punishes and pressure reversals much more viable for me lol.

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the mook says that the last hit of ice arrow of 10% min damage. the rest of the hits have 20% min damage

base damage: 800, 100x22, 1100

this equates to min damage of 710. does that fit the observed values? ...

The value I've been observing for Ice Arrow minimum damage is 600, based on a couple videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QCcu2GbGDI#t=5m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hq48yJMFWw#t=14m55s

So far I've been tinkering with this:

800*0.2 + 100*22*0.1 + 1100*0.2 = 160 + 220 + 220 = 600

It's based on this source http://www14.atwiki.jp/jinkisaragi/pages/111.html as well as a couple combos I couldn't get to work out without making this assumption such as the one following (which also happens to be the biggest problem for me in working out a formula accounting for how min damage is reached):

j2C > jD > 5B > 5C > mash C > 6C > 632146D > 632146D

700 > 1174 > 1463 > 1776 > 2224 > 2475 > 3301 > 4033 (Calc with the ~700 min damage)

700 > 1174 > 1463 > 1776 > 2224 > 2475 > 3240 > 3885 (Test Calculation; working on the finished formula still...)

700 > 1173 > 1461 > 1773 > 2221 > 2471 > 3239 > 3883 (Obs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXEexjxUZZY#t=2m4s

Extra notes: My calculations are indicating prorations of around 24~25% after 6C and then around 17% after the first Hiyoku Getsumei.

Notice however that the second Hiyoku is observed at 644 (indicating it hasn't reached min damage yet).

This video seems to indicate either:

(a) There may be some changes to the requirements for 632146D to hit min damage, i.e. min proration

(b) I have an incomplete understanding of the formula still

© A combination of (a) and (b)

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just tested min damage: it's definitely as you describle: first and last hits have 20% min damage, middle hits have 10%

did 3C > 214A > 214A > double ice arrow and you can see that the above is the min damage. it really is 600 damage min

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Ah that's nice to know.

Now the only thing left for me to figure out is how the in-game formula rounds damage and prorations for 632146D, which may not happen until I can do some specific tests. That or I catch a lucky break in my analysis. My current formula gives semi-decent results, but it has this odd section where it dips down to 650 or something, then jumps back up to around 680 before going back down to 600. Still tinkering with different ideas.

I can't wait to start having fun with 214A wallbounce.

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