[CSE] Iron Tager CS2 -> CSE Changelog

[Hecatom]

that was nice

[Isorropia]

5C > 6A has a 1 frame hole in it, but any reversal will eat the super armour, unless it's a throw, a low, or it's able to do more than 1500 damage, (This is true even now btw)

This isn't true. Firstly I'm not even sure 6A has super armour unless you at least charge a little bit, and even if I'm wrong on that, the problem is this:

If it has a 1f hole, that means that 6A's 7 active frames begin 1 frame after the opponent can move. Virtually any reversal from any other character in the game is invulnerable for at least 7 or so frames (the significant dps at least, rag, jin, litchi, makoto, various supers), and has their active hitbox start after 7 frames (remember 6A has no armour during recovery), so you just get CH during the recovery.

Now if you hold 6A it's a different story, and japanese tagers seem to use this a lot with magnetism, and it looks solid.

Also 5B > j.B...swear I've seen yumura do it mid combo...might have been a fatal though. Was something like:

Collider into corner > charge Bsledge > hammer > 5B > j.B delay j.C > 4D.

[Manta]

This isn't true. Firstly I'm not even sure 6A has super armour unless you at least charge a little bit, and even if I'm wrong on that, the problem is this:

If it has a 1f hole, that means that 6A's 7 active frames begin 1 frame after the opponent can move. Virtually any reversal from any other character in the game is invulnerable for at least 7 or so frames (the significant dps at least, rag, jin, litchi, makoto, various supers), and has their active hitbox start after 7 frames (remember 6A has no armour during recovery), so you just get CH during the recovery.

Now if you hold 6A it's a different story, and japanese tagers seem to use this a lot with magnetism, and it looks solid.

Also 5B > j.B...swear I've seen yumura do it mid combo...might have been a fatal though. Was something like:

Collider into corner > charge Bsledge > hammer > 5B > j.B delay j.C > 4D.

Must've been a Fatal. That jump combo juuuust doesn't work without it.

That big 6.3k combo went:

5C > 6A > 2C > 236236B, 5B > 5C> 623C, (22D), 6C > j.2C, 5B >5C > 41236D > 6C > 236236B, 22D

Started with 60 heat to begin with,had 73 at the first MTW and 78 at the second. Meaning that combo works with as little as 37 heat to begin with. Magnetism was required for the 22D flick in the middle. Required corner for 5B to connect after first MTW. Demonstrates that 5B > 5C works even when suffering from some untech time reduction and that you can hit magna tech wheel after 6C even when you hit 6C's harsh repeat rate.

[Isorropia]

Just checked the frame data and MTW only has 180f heat gain reduction following it, a lot of which gets taken up by the untech time of the attack itself. :S

Typically people have supers like that for 1 version before they get nerfed (eg. jayoku and particle flare, which had their heat gain reduction period lengthened), so....lets enjoy it while we can.

[Manta]

Just checked the frame data and MTW only has 180f heat gain reduction following it, a lot of which gets taken up by the untech time of the attack itself. :S

Typically people have supers like that for 1 version before they get nerfed (eg. jayoku and particle flare, which had their heat gain reduction period lengthened), so....lets enjoy it while we can.

From what I calculate, only the 5B and 5C after the first MTW were affected by the cooldown. Gadget finger's animation is so long that it's impossible for it to get affected.

Also, Tager's Back throw does 1600 now.

Observed Tager's 6A absorb Mami circular, so that's a confirm on the super armour being stronger.

[Zeron_X25]

Observed Tager's 6A absorb Mami circular, so that's a confirm on the super armour being stronger.

... this... this.... THIS.... I'VE WANTED THIS MY ENTIRE LIFE. SAY FUCK YOU TO PLATINUM

[Osuna]

Both of you are playing the match up wrong if 6A beating mami circular means that much to you.

[Zeron_X25]

Both of you are playing the match up wrong if 6A beating mami circular means that much to you.

It would mean I can use it in this matchup and not get 5k'd for my trouble.

[Manta]

Both of you are playing the match up wrong if 6A beating mami circular means that much to you.

I'm just using it as proof that the original armour of 1500 has been raised, since mami does more than that in a single hit. Interested to see what supermoves it can now chew up. I'm also noticing a fair amount of 5Ds being thrown at neutral, even against the unmagnetised. Is this move better now or are people throwing it out more since Tager's damage is almost entirely reliant on magnetism now?

[Osuna]

It would mean I can use it in this matchup and not get 5k'd for my trouble.

6A isn't that great even with the coming buffs. It is normally a pretty bad decision in general. Just because she doesn't get 5K off you making a bad judgment doesn't mean she can't stuff it in all of those situations just as easily, it also doesn't mean she won't get 4K off of that. This change shouldn't impact the match up at all.

[Zeron_X25]

6A isn't that great even with the coming buffs. It is normally a pretty bad decision in general. Just because she doesn't get 5K off you making a bad judgment doesn't mean she can't stuff it in all of those situations just as easily, it also doesn't mean she won't get 4K off of that. This change shouldn't impact the match up at all.

Who said anything about making the matchup easier? This just means that I have a counter to random heart cars. Everything about 6A remains the same. Just use in blockstrings and such.

[Manta]

6A isn't that great even with the coming buffs. It is normally a pretty bad decision in general. Just because she doesn't get 5K off you making a bad judgment doesn't mean she can't stuff it in all of those situations just as easily, it also doesn't mean she won't get 4K off of that. This change shouldn't impact the match up at all.

What I have however seen it used for is for a sort of long ranged meaty attack of sorts. End a combo with something like 5B > 4D and then hold out a 6A and let go the moment you see them tech (Ideally about ~24 frames after they push the button) and from what I can calculate from the frame data you'll force them to block the 6A from just about any tech, the guard point stops most reversals and they're too far away to roll past you. It's not perfect but it's covering a lot of options.

And making an enemy block 6A is a damn fine mix up.

[Osuna]

What I have however seen it used for is for a sort of long ranged meaty attack of sorts. End a combo with something like 5B > 4D and then hold out a 6A and let go the moment you see them tech (Ideally about ~24 frames after they push the button) and from what I can calculate from the frame data you'll force them to block the 6A from just about any tech, the guard point stops most reversals and they're too far away to roll past you. It's not perfect but it's covering a lot of options.

And making an enemy block 6A is a damn fine mix up.

But you can't make them block it, not in those circumstances, and if you could 6A would beat mami circular which makes all of this irrelevant anyway. I've heard talk of better armor, but as it stands that would lose to any reversal I know because the armor ends when the active frames end. There's some goofy timing things you can do, but it's a very far cry from something you can force on anyone. 6A is a tager mix up. It has some fast options out of it but they are unsafe. I like that 3C is getting buffed at the expense of 360B being nerfed in the context of mix ups like that though, makes them a lot more reasonable.

Besides that, holding 6A is the most obvious thing in the world if there is a single option that makes it bad it can be done reliably on reaction.

EDIT: As for random heartcars, it isn't a counter unless you Yomi them. 6A is slower than Mami circular and gets the armor late into the move. Also, the move is minus a billion on whiff or block, late backdash or block gives you a 'whatever you want' punish. Also you first said you could use it without getting heartcared for your trouble which very distinctly means the opposite of what you're saying now. Even though neither work, it is confusing to get conflicting accounts.

[Isorropia]

What I have however seen it used for is for a sort of long ranged meaty attack of sorts. End a combo with something like 5B > 4D and then hold out a 6A and let go the moment you see them tech (Ideally about ~24 frames after they push the button) and from what I can calculate from the frame data you'll force them to block the 6A from just about any tech, the guard point stops most reversals and they're too far away to roll past you. It's not perfect but it's covering a lot of options.

And making an enemy block 6A is a damn fine mix up.

Except that they can just watch you holding 6A while they're grounded, late neutral tech and punish the zillion year recovery of 6A. Don't do this.

[YukiBlue]

Is Tager still going to be "Simple" and S-Tier on Netplay? Or Do I have to think now? CS2 Tager was the only character I really enjoyed online.

[Manta]

EDIT: As for random heartcars, it isn't a counter unless you Yomi them. 6A is slower than Mami circular and gets the armor late into the move. Also, the move is minus a billion on whiff or block, late backdash or block gives you a 'whatever you want' punish. Also you first said you could use it without getting heartcared for your trouble which very distinctly means the opposite of what you're saying now. Even though neither work, it is confusing to get conflicting accounts.

I thought with random heartcars, you just blocked and 360B'd unless they had enough sense to have heat for an RC.

[Dragonslayer9]

Is Tager still going to be "Simple" and S-Tier on Netplay? Or Do I have to think now? CS2 Tager was the only character I really enjoyed online.

Of course, purple grabs are untechable online =P

[Manta]

Of course, purple grabs are untechable online =P

Not if you actually filter your opponents.

[Dragonslayer9]

Not if you actually filter your opponents.

And even then the connection bars are not accurate in this game so you can still get some unplayable matches with the filters on.

[Azzal]

Stupid question but didn't actually follow Tager vids (still on VK) but the buster follow up seems to be 3C AC. Does it work on everyone? No more micro walk character specific shit? :o

[A.X.I.S.]

It works on everyone but only when they are magnetized.

The new meter follow up is:

360A/B>3C>MTW>TB

[Osmond]

It works on everyone but only when they are magnetized.

The new meter follow up is:

360A/B>3C>MTW>TB

It may situational, 100% heat and magnetism

but that combo will make a lot of people mad, Tager damage sounds like a good thing now.

[A.X.I.S.]

3C>MTW is not as situational as you think.

and the fact that we can do it off anything that leads into 3C>MTW makes it all the better.

Also I wanna just make a note that TB has better P2 since you can actually follow up after the collider, I wanna assume it has around 60-70 or so p2.

FYI Spark scales worse.

In case you guys don't know for whatever reason Spark on normal hit has wall bound properties meaning a huge increase in untech time.

A few example combos to take advantage of this:

5A>5B>3C>spark>6C>collider>j.C>j.2C

5C>6A>2C>collider>spark>collider whiff (so they fly behind you, usually used to gain corner.)

5C>6A>2C>MTW>5B>5C>collider>spark>6C>MTW

6B>6C>spark>5C>6A>collider>j.C>j.2C

The wall bound property makes spark a bit more fun.

[Dragonslayer9]

I am definitely liking these new Tager options, seems like he is at least not going to be in his own tier again this time LoL

[TagerTime]

i dont know how accurate this is

http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/45148/1317781332/963