[CSE] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[VR-Raiden]

You can cross under from 2D if you're close enough, and GH(1) too.

[KayEff]

I want to teach my friend how to do this crossunder stuff. How do you do it, just run up and 2B when they're supposed to tech?

And what situations would you have a chance to use it. You wouldn't want to do it in the corner normally since it would put you in the corner instead.

since this crossunder stuff is mainly after 3C > hell's fang, you'd want to use this only after such. the key to doing it right is to start running as soon as you are able to after hell's fang, and throw out 2B just before the apex of the opponent's tech. if done right, you'll perform the crossunder.

crossunder 2A after 3C > hell's fang is pretty strict on timing, i believe it's only about 2-3 frames where you can pull it off.

as for when to use the crossunder, it's basically reliant on when to perform 3C > hell's fang, which is basically anywhere beyond the space where 3C > DID wallbounce will work, which is roughly a little more than a screen away from the corner or so.

[xlolxlolx]

u can do it from like stuff>5d(2) air hit>hf too

[KayEff]

discovered a neat ambiguous crossup.

after 3C > hell's fang, running jump > very slight delay 623D. the DP will end up crossing up the opponent. you can even either do a normal jump or perform the divider a little early so that it's a fake crossup.

i haven't messed around with it a whole lot, but if the opponent doesn't emergency tech, then it should be enough time to react so that you don't end up whiffing a divider.

[floatwater]

Hey KF, did you try and get around to breaking 7K FC on Tager yet?

[KayEff]

i think i'm satisfied with just finding 7k on rachel for now.

[floatwater]

I actually have a question, i feel like i already know the answer but when ragna players whiff 2C is that just to force someone to press a button or some shit?

[KayEff]

yeah pretty much

[-Kid]

Or sometimes people just use it to reset pressure. It's just a bonus if we get a counter hit from people mashing buttons.

[Tong]

2C> dash 5B

Only a reversal or 7 frame jab can beat that. But depending on the distance you are, it will beat theirs clean. If you're close, just do dash 2A. Pretty much no 2A is fast enough to beat.

2C is gdlk. Yeah, theorically it should work like this but still needs field testing.

I'd love to see how legit [2A 2C dash] xN is.

[MashThat5A]

2C whiff doesn't really work in higher levels of play, but it's good against people that like to hit a button on reaction to a whiff animation. It's also pretty terrible as a pressure reset.

[floatwater]

That's what I figured as much, I was messing around with it and so many people fell for a fatal or a counter jab. I don't like to use it much, I'm trying to work new block strings that don't get DP'd through and not use overheads so much. I wanna open up an opponent differently.

[LuminAbyss]

2C whiff doesn't really work in higher levels of play, but it's good against people that like to hit a button on reaction to a whiff animation. It's also pretty terrible as a pressure reset.

It works anytime you've got the opponent scared or hesitant to disrespect you (which you should be aiming to establish, because Ragna does not thrive in the ways of air-tight pressure and fast mix-up). There's also the fear of timing their punish wrong and just giving you a free fatal.

Most people, knowing 2C is your fatal, will attempt to hit you after you've already recovered from the whiff (no risk of being fatal'd for them), at which point, any fast poke, 5A, 2A, or 5B, will beat them. That's why 2C whiff is legit.

When in truth, you're -8 off 5C > 2C (w), and -10 off 5B > 2C (w). So of course, it's far from being the greatest thing ever. But like anything, it works when you use it correctly, and mix it up with all your other options.

Funny enough, in both cases, they are actually stuck in block-stun during 2C's active frames, assuming it was canceled into ASAP, so there is no reason for them to fear being fataled.

5B gives 16 frames of block stun on normal, 5C gives 18. 2C starts up in 12 frames, has 3 active frames, meaning they can get hit on frames 13, 14 and 15. Which is silly, since they're stuck blocking during those.

Of course, if you delay it, then they'll actually run the risk of being out of blockstun and running into a fatal, since they'll anticipate that whiff (but not the delay). Instant blocking 5B (13 frames of block stun) or 5C (now 15 frames of block stun) does the same thing, it puts them at more of a risk. Huh. The more you know.

[Dont_Explain]

To me, I thought it gave the illusion of you still doing something and then the opponent would realize too late and you would probably beat them to pressing buttons.

To just 5B and let the animation end seems much easier to react to than 2C whiff. Even if they start mashing, I guess that's just another point in your blockstring you can frame trap them (like with 5B>2D when they think 5B>2C(w) is coming).

[LuminAbyss]

Most people wont' do things after 5B just because 5B can lead to any of Ragna's normals aside from 6C. If you block a 5B, you're expecting to block other stuff.

[-Kid]

Strictly speaking for Ragna vs Ragna, you can punish a 2C (w) > 5B with a dash 5B. That's only if you can react to the 2C whiff. It's not too difficult to react to once you're used to it. May even beat a 5A after a whiffed 2C.

[MashThat5A]

You guys aren't even thinking about all of the possible actions the other person could do because you whiffed a 2C...you give up all of your pressure for a shitty gimmick.

I'll even help out a bit. What happens if they IB 5C and jump?

Edited July 23, 2012 by MashThat5A

[-Kid]

You guys aren't even thinking about all of the possible actions the other person could do because you whiffed a 2C...you give up all of your pressure for a shitty gimmick.

I'll even help out a bit. What happens if they IB 5C and jump?

But that can be said about anything. Everything we do in the game is a risk, it's about knowing your opponent and doing things at the right time. What happens when you IB 2A and punish Ragna before his 6B?

What happens when you DP Ragna before DID after the 5A IAD. Everything is a risk. Yet things are to be used sparingly..with caution and experience against specific people. Know the player. That is of utmost importance.

Edited July 23, 2012 by -Kid

[MashThat5A]

The thing is, there are ways to condition people in those cases. For 2C whiff, and the distance you need to be for 2C whiff to work, you're pretty much saying "Please autopilot jump out of my pressure and punish me for attempting to hit you." And if you wait after the 2C whiff to see what they are going to do, then you're defeating the whole point of 2C whiff in the first place. Case in point: When I went to PNW, I tried 2C whiff after I thought I conditioned the other player to stay on the ground. I was punished every single time for it.

[Tong]

You need to know how your opponent blocks first. The most common types are:

-Mashers

-Chicken Blockers

-Those who actually respect and block

For example, there's this guy who I play over PSN. He'd rather block up to avoid overheads than to crouch and react...

Also, conditioning is very important to know which kind of string to use. If someone keeps beating you out of resets or strings wtih mashing, it's preferable to make frametraps.

However, all of our discussion is aimed VS Smart opponents. I lack personal experience, but I believe that silly stuff such as 6D j.D 6D j.D, 2A huge delay 5C to catch tech attempts are more effective against good blockers, even though they're theorically unsafe.

As for 5B 2C for reset pressure, well you won't have many reliable options at max ranged 5B... Either risk a 5C Hell's Fang to start pressure. Or 2D, but you might lose momentum anyway, like 2C whiff.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Tong

[Dont_Explain]

@Mash: Did they mash and get lucky or did it seem like they actually saw it coming/reacted to it? I mean I know you're not them so it's hard to say, but maybe you could tell if they were mashing or not.

2C(w) is a gimmick no doubt, but I don't think it's balls. It has been used for awhile I think, so that could be another reason they were constantly hitting you after the whiff.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Dont_Explain

[MashThat5A]

They would jump over 5B and punish. It wasn't on reaction, but at that range it doesn't need to be.

[VR-Raiden]

Ya 5B/5C(blocked)>2C whiff is bad, leaves you at pretty significant disadvantage. If they're paying attention and know that, don't do it. If they let you get away with it all day, go for it.

[LuminAbyss]

I'll even help out a bit. What happens if they IB 5C and jump?

5B > 5C > 2D

Babby's first block string.

I was talking about a conditioned opponent. You're not supposed to use gimmicks on someone you haven't already conditioned with the basics. If you can beat them with the basics, why would you need gimmicks?

[MashThat5A]

You can IB 5C and jump out of 2D :v