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Akira-Shiro

[CSE] Carl Changes and Discussion Thread

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Ill edit as more information is given

Carl Clover ^-^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0vNh06Fcs&feature=context&context=G2e39f31FUAAAAAAAAAA

A little something for all you carl fans out there who have been waiting for him to be turned into an actually character and not a walking glitch.

All have dmg buffs

5A: 160 => 300

2A: 130 => 300

JA: 150 => 300

Volante: 560 => 860

:CA:Everything in Red is still under speculation:CA:

*Ada uses less meter for attacks,, but repetition cost of moves is increased

-The cooldown on when Ada begins regaining hp has been extended.

-5C: Stagger on CH removed.

-2D trajectory changed: Harder to a preform the 4D combo from a 2D starter.

-J2C:Can now only be used once per jump

-3D: No longer forces standing.

-4D:No longer takes a primer

-Fuoco: P2 reduced from 95% to 89%

-623c: is no longer untechable until they touch the ground, instead it has a ridiculous amount of untech time (similar to 8D)

-6A:Less invincibility during startup

-Forward dash doesn't go as far. It looks like its about the same as hazamas maybe a little shorter.

-CH JB: has less untechable time on air hit

-6B:Can no longer be jump canceled

+J2c: Larger vertical hitbox

+2D: P2 proration buff

+JC: Level increase

+6C: causes KD on air opponents with no charge, emergency techable

+6C:cause bounce (Like 2D) when charged, while opponent in in the air.

+Full charged 6C: If done on airborne enemy exactly the same as regular 6C, except height & untechable time of the bounce is much larger 2D>full charged 6c>Fermata works

+Forward dash has been shortened, Carl recovers faster.

+Forward dash can be canceled on first 6F; looks very similar to Hazama's dash attack cancel.

+4D trajectory changed: Easier to combo from after a crossup & mid combo,, enemy is almost always guaranteed not to fly into carl.

+6C: Stagger is still possible.

+6D: Causes blowback on air hit (similar to hazamas projectile) causes wallbounce near corner.

+Fuoco: Easier to combo after Fuoco on air hit, forces the enemy to fly down instead of hitting them higher. Used for tech roll punishes, and in rare situations, for comboing into 632146C at the end of a combo.

+22D: Ada teleports closer to Carl, Ada has no hitbox till the last few recovery frames. 22D>backdash will swap positions. The closer position allows Ada to end up in front of Carl after teleporting during 623C.

+623C: Hits almost directly in front of Carl now. Can still whiff on extremely close opponents

+3D: Causes ground bounce (Similar to Lambda's spinning blade - 236D)

+3D: Final hit of 3D causes ground stun.

+Allegreto: Has more hitstun; can be done mid combo and is easier to hitconfirm in the corner

Nirvana move cost changes:

Note: this is all estimated from tests in training mode and may not be 100% accurate.

8D, 6D, 4D, 623D all cost 600

2D, 3D, 421D, 41236D all cost 720

22D costs 500

214214D costs 1000

236236D costs 1500

Continuation costs all seem to be about 140-150%, except for 22D, 214214D, and 236236D which are all 100% like before.

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Nahh i wanted anything EX related to go in here,,, including conversations.. I have not seen anyone do a fully charged 6C so i dont kno,,, anything that is not up on the list of changes is unconfirmed.

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Not necessarily,, the p1 proration was worsened however im assuming the p2 value is still the same.. so it is more effective during combos,, however less effective as a starter.

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I'll my response to the last thing you wrote in the CS2 thread here since it turns into CSX discussion:

Oh wow, that actually makes perfect sense o.o I actually JUST started to use counter assaults but I'm always iffy on it since I feel like Cantata is so useful that I'd rather just take the damage sometimes. Also like you said, his CA is really crappy =\ And speaking of CA, I hear that it reduces your primers (in CSX), but in the vids I've seen, that doesn't always happen. So what cause the actual primer reduction when you use it?

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Im assuming that if you actually make contact with your CA IE if the enemy Gets hit, or blocks it you lose the primer,, but if your CA whiffs then u dont lose anything.

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+22D has Ada teleport in front? Ada takes less damage?...it seems that Ada will become more the shield she already was:yaaay:

although 3D not forcing stand worries me a bit.

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Although I, too, will miss 3D forcing stand, it was something that had to be nerfed. Otherwise, the UBs would continue to be stupid (even in CSEX, they're doable even if you can't loop them). I wouldn't worry about it tbh. The new 3D groundbounces so at least we have oki/something to catch rolls with.

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I remember seeing somewhere that j2C can only be done once per jump but i didn't see it up here...did they put it back in....D:

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Nope, the j.2C change is still there. They still managed to find a way to do a DP-safe UB without it though. :toot:

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Nope, the j.2C change is still there. They still managed to find a way to do a DP-safe UB without it though. :toot:

Yeah, that is true. Bue the problem is that UB it isn´t very reliable, until now it only can be used against specific chars like Tager or Hakumen, maybe Jin. Maybe in the future they refine more that UB and make it more doable.

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It might not be as stupid as CS2 UBs but it has its uses.

Yeah... but like i said before, the problem with that UB is that dosnt work wit all characater. That is sad U_U.

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*is confused*

why did people hate that loop/trick/broken mess?

it meant free wins, and I don't understand why CARL players are complaining about it, it just doesn't make sense.

if you got to a tourney you can use fancy 4D combos, but once you hit the finals/semi finals it's time for that UB setup

plus it means you win, which I don't understand why so many carl players are against it...

I'm sad that the 3D stand reset was taken out, that was a great asset to carl's oki,

As for 4D losing the Guard primer take off, don't know what to say, since that was my best weapon in the tager match-up, with his 10 GP :mad:

The 6A change was seen coming from a mile away, which is why Brio was my permanent Anti Air

It's kind of weird for Carl, since he lost a great tool, but he still has his old tools so in a way he didn't really change that much. I just think that some match-ups are going to be a little more complex in terms of setting up, or going crazy with corner rape

N-C-O-W :cool:

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*is confused*

why did people hate that loop/trick/broken mess?

it meant free wins, and I don't understand why CARL players are complaining about it, it just doesn't make sense.

if you got to a tourney you can use fancy 4D combos, but once you hit the finals/semi finals it's time for that UB setup

plus it means you win, which I don't understand why so many carl players are against it...

The quick answer is it's BORING AS HELL to do and BORING AS HELL to watch. It makes the game less fun. That's me anyway. What's the point of learning everything else if that one combo does everything for you? Carl is supposed to be about versatility and dynamic playstyles, if everyone is doing the same loop for everything then that's really just undoing what the point of playing Carl was. Again, all IMO. Feel free to rip what I'm saying apart.

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Thank God...always hated j.B, j.C crap...I perfect'd a handful of Tager that way...it was depressing, really...D:

Well, you should know that UB is really easy to do it against Tager on BBSEX.

5B,2B,5C, 3]D[, IAD, j.A, j.A, j.B,j2.C, j.A, j.A, j.B, 3]D[ UB.

*is confused*

why did people hate that loop/trick/broken mess?

it meant free wins, and I don't understand why CARL players are complaining about it, it just doesn't make sense.

if you got to a tourney you can use fancy 4D combos, but once you hit the finals/semi finals it's time for that UB setup

plus it means you win, which I don't understand why so many carl players are against it...

I'm sad that the 3D stand reset was taken out, that was a great asset to carl's oki,

As for 4D losing the Guard primer take off, don't know what to say, since that was my best weapon in the tager match-up, with his 10 GP :mad:

The 6A change was seen coming from a mile away, which is why Brio was my permanent Anti Air

It's kind of weird for Carl, since he lost a great tool, but he still has his old tools so in a way he didn't really change that much. I just think that some match-ups are going to be a little more complex in terms of setting up, or going crazy with corner rape

N-C-O-W :cool:

I don't hate that loop UB thing on CS2, why? because nirvana gauge is so ass, that you need a tool like that in your disposal. Like you, i don't like that they remove the 3]D[ force standing propriety. Hell, that was a really good oki tool and Carl really need it.

6A is the same almost, now is more punishable if you whiff it. But his effectiveness is the same so i can´t complain.

Is true that Carl loose a great tool, also they worsened moves like 2]D[. Now is more hard to do cross ups with that and be able to combo after, i still don't get the idea for that change... and why Nirvana recover so slow now? Now a lot of Carl mathchup will become more harder. One thing that i really despise is that they remove the 6B jump cancelable prosperity, that was like ´´ oh! lets take away thing for Carl, just for take it away!`` so dumb that.

It was so hard to remove Carl loop and make better the Nirvana gauge? jeezz.

The quick answer is it's BORING AS HELL to do and BORING AS HELL to watch. It makes the game less fun. That's me anyway. What's the point of learning everything else if that one combo does everything for you? Carl is supposed to be about versatility and dynamic playstyles, if everyone is doing the same loop for everything then that's really just undoing what the point of playing Carl was. Again, all IMO. Feel free to rip what I'm saying apart.

That combo doesn't do everything for you, in fact that combo is just use full but you still need to be able to learn your reset option and how to move. Even on japanase matches you don't see them use it a lot because with Carl is really hard to approach the rival.

Is true that Carl is about versatility and dynamic playstyles, and for that CS2 Carl was worth it. He really have good options and oki there, his only problem was the meter. Now on BBSEX, it doesn't look like that, for the first time i think Carl look like he loose his ´´ brokenness magic`` i dont know how to put in words, but what im trying to say:

- BBCT Carl, Clap Trap for almost any move. ( I dont know too much about this Carl, because i never played BBCT).

- BBCS1, Bad Oki but amazing reset that deal 3k or more. You with only 2 or 3 reset could kill an opponent, also some reset/UB could lead you into 6k and 7k dmg combos ( Double volante, etc), great combo ability because the length of nirvana gauge. Vivance A was good for bait DP.

- BBCS2, Amazing Oki, useful reset, Fermmata way more useful because now you can do j.C, 8]D[, Fermata. Great combos that can send the opp to the corner dealing 5K and getting oki. And! you have the Loop + an UB likea all Carl UB should be!. The only bad thing, is that Nirvana gauge was too short and you really need to make proper use of her moves and know when to stop using it for letting regenerate.

- BBSEX.... More Nirvana gauge, but! starting the recovering process is just WAY more slow... and? mmm, maybe one or two combos could be good because of the dmg buff. Worsened reset option, worsened Oki..... Just one or two almost interesting buff like the ability to cancel the the foward dash into an attack (i like that), but in the end less tool than in previous BB.

Still, is too soon to see how SEX Carl will be. But until now, i just not like how he turn out.

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The CS2 unblockable reset stuff was useful and great, but it just wasn't as fun as doing volante and 4D combos like we could all do in CS1. We can still do them in CS2 but her gauge nerf didn't really encourage. That was main reason why I wasn't too excited about CS2 Carl. He just wasn't as fun because the unblockable reset (though initially hard to learn) was sooo straight forward. Plus hitstun deterioration and stuff made long combos hard to pull off.

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That combo doesn't do everything for you, in fact that combo is just use full but you still need to be able to learn your reset option and how to move. Even on japanase matches you don't see them use it a lot because with Carl is really hard to approach the rival.

Is true that Carl is about versatility and dynamic playstyles, and for that CS2 Carl was worth it. He really have good options and oki there, his only problem was the meter. Now on BBSEX, it doesn't look like that, for the first time i think Carl look like he loose his ´´ brokenness magic`` i dont know how to put in words, but what im trying to say:

- BBCT Carl, Clap Trap for almost any move. ( I dont know too much about this Carl, because i never played BBCT).

- BBCS1, Bad Oki but amazing reset that deal 3k or more. You with only 2 or 3 reset could kill an opponent, also some reset/UB could lead you into 6k and 7k dmg combos ( Double volante, etc), great combo ability because the length of nirvana gauge. Vivance A was good for bait DP.

- BBCS2, Amazing Oki, useful reset, Fermmata way more useful because now you can do j.C, 8]D[, Fermata. Great combos that can send the opp to the corner dealing 5K and getting oki. And! you have the Loop + an UB likea all Carl UB should be!. The only bad thing, is that Nirvana gauge was too short and you really need to make proper use of her moves and know when to stop using it for letting regenerate.

- BBSEX.... More Nirvana gauge, but! starting the recovering process is just WAY more slow... and? mmm, maybe one or two combos could be good because of the dmg buff. Worsened reset option, worsened Oki..... Just one or two almost interesting buff like the ability to cancel the the foward dash into an attack (i like that), but in the end less tool than in previous BB.

Yeah you have to learn how to play Carl and approach your opponent, but really, the loop isn't that hard to setup. And I don't know what vids you were watching...I saw it every single Carl match. Everything just led into that one loop and it was boring. So much that I actually just stopped watching Carl play for a while.

Honestly, I don't like that Carl has broken stuff in the first place. It's called "broken" for a reason, is my opinion. I feel like it makes people rely on their characters' strengths rather than their own skill, if you get what I mean? I'm aware it takes skill to play Carl, but I still think it's kinda cheap. I like that Skull Girls took that stuff out, I feel like they know what they're doing, trying to make their game as fair as possible.

CT Carl was actually so dumb. Clap loop was retarded. You tech right into an air unblockable and get hit, or you take the hit, bounce up and he grabs you again. Rinse, repeat. Free wins all day. Wayyyy worse than CS2 UB loop.

I don't remember CS1 at all, it honestly feels like it didn't exist to me.

CS2 Carl is ok for me, the only thing I hate is Nirvana meter and that lame UB loop.

CSX Carl looks more fun, it forces you to mix it up. But yeah, slow Nirvana recovery is the only thing. Plus I still hate how like 2 or 3 sledges > Nirvana. Even if you 4D, Tager can get like half her life. Also, I hate how she can still die during her specials. I think during RoM or something, her meter shouldn't be affected. Make her like Ignis!

Still, is too soon to see how SEX Carl will be

loool

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Yeah that made me lol for a while...

anyway I just think that Carl might as well get back his volante/ 6k combos, with a crappy oki. Plus how do you not remember CS Carl, o_O? that was where his versatility came into play for the most part,

The clap trap was fair game since doing any other combo was like "why bother" ----->(2D loop)

UB loop. Ristopher, you were right on the mark, it does take the point out of using carl, since its a *set* combo. Also it was insane for me to first start doing it until I realized that you just release D while holding 3... then I was like D: YES!!!

Going back to my corner rape... HOW WILL IT WORK?

I mean 4D would be useless, and a waste of meter because there is no GP loss, Brio seems ok, volante was never corner worthy unless you use it during an air combo. Looking at 2D, if you hit, chances are the Opponent will fly over Nirvana, and you would've helped them escape corner pressure.

I'm still using carl's semi CS2 ass, but slower meter gain is going to be awful on the last round of a match, and 6A nerf just makes it a mess.

However I'm just thankful we didn't get the makoto treatment

/Rant. Those are my only concerns for Carl in this game. It's just best if people update the threads so more speculation can be added to the convo.

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As far as GP's and corner shininigans go, busting up people's guard primers is still conceivable you just need to go about it correctly. And honestly, brio is a perfectly good tool for it. a.) it has an absurd range in the air. b.) close range it hits standing grounded opponents. c.) it's -fast- and nirvana recovers very quickly afterwards; quickly enough that if you have them in a corner set up you have time to brio, deactivate her and re-activate her to avoid repeated-use meter damage. d.) when it breaks their final primer standing, it doesn't smack them away like 4D does and you can start a combo with Fermatta which will net you -huge- damage.

I personally dont think you should be going for someone's GP's anyways unless they have less than 4 remaining. It's just too meter-heavy. you'll have no combo follow ups afterwards if you use up all of nirvana's gauge trying to guard crush. And 8D still removes 2 GP's from opponents in the air and 1 from standing.

I'm really not that surprised to see the 4D GP bust gone. It was too safe and easy to be silly with.

My new favorite thing lately has been the j.C -> 2]D[ combos you see popping up in JP matches. so swag.

side note: makoto got what she deserved.

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