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Akira-Shiro

[CSE] Carl Changes and Discussion Thread

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- BBCS2, Amazing Oki, useful reset, Fermmata way more useful because now you can do j.C, 8]D[, Fermata. Great combos that can send the opp to the corner dealing 5K and getting oki. And! you have the Loop + an UB likea all Carl UB should be!.

I would have to disagree, sure carl is not a good character without the UB Dp safe/Mash safe/DD safe reset. I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but we are playing a fighting game. Nothing in a fighting game is absolute, there will always be an option & there should always be an option no matter what the situation may be. Carl in CS2 defied that law, if you have 0 burst left its game over. Put your controller down & try again next round. No & i mean NO!!!! reset carl does should be Dp/Mash/DD safe all at once its ridiculous cause that means they have ZERO options.

You say carl needed it but in truth he doesnt, seriously its not impossible to win without all of that. I kno this for a fact, when CS2 first came out i learned the UB reset. After a while I though to myself 'hmm am i seriously playing carl,,, or am i just using bullshit to get a win.' Truth is all of the people who relied on the UB reset will have a hard time playing EX. Sure we can still do it but its something we can only do once per 'catch' & even then we sacrifice alot of Adas Hp just to do a 3K safe reset. In all honesty if you want to think about it. Its no longer a point to doing it, we lose alot of Adas hp, to go along with the fact that she regains hp slower now. But the enemy isnt gonna stop to give us time to recover that lost Hp we still got to fight. So she will die alot more often for those who choose to use the UB reset. Carl is a crapy character without that reset... lets face it 0. However its not impossible to win because of who we play. We already over enough tricks and gimmicks that can be doen at the flick of our wrist. No one person could memories all of them and succesfully block all of them mid game.

Learn how to use these tools, take advantage of every situation. That is our job as carl players, also if anyone hasnt noticed ada has reverted back to CT status. She takes almost no damage, her moves cost almost nothing. But the issue is that we are suppose to reset ourselves to victory. However if a person is smart enough to see the reset coming then they deserve to block it, because even if they do block it we still have the advantage.

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I would have to disagree, sure carl is not a good character without the UB Dp safe/Mash safe/DD safe reset. I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but we are playing a fighting game. Nothing in a fighting game is absolute, there will always be an option & there should always be an option no matter what the situation may be. Carl in CS2 defied that law, if you have 0 burst left its game over. Put your controller down & try again next round. No & i mean NO!!!! reset carl does should be Dp/Mash/DD safe all at once its ridiculous cause that means they have ZERO options.

Blah Balh Blah rest of it

100% ace there. True Strike.

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I would have to disagree, sure carl is not a good character without the UB Dp safe/Mash safe/DD safe reset. I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news but we are playing a fighting game. Nothing in a fighting game is absolute, there will always be an option & there should always be an option no matter what the situation may be. Carl in CS2 defied that law, if you have 0 burst left its game over. Put your controller down & try again next round. No & i mean NO!!!! reset carl does should be Dp/Mash/DD safe all at once its ridiculous cause that means they have ZERO options.

I thought this was funny because I did this to a Mu player last night, and they literally stopped playing lolol

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anyway I just think that Carl might as well get back his volante/ 6k combos, with a crappy oki. Plus how do you not remember CS Carl, o_O? that was where his versatility came into play for the most part,

The clap trap was fair game since doing any other combo was like "why bother" ----->(2D loop)

UB loop. Ristopher, you were right on the mark, it does take the point out of using carl, since its a *set* combo. Also it was insane for me to first start doing it until I realized that you just release D while holding 3... then I was like D: YES!!!

Going back to my corner rape... HOW WILL IT WORK?

I honestly have NO idea, but I literally cannot remember how Carl played in CS1 or how to play CS1 Carl lol. Like the other day, my friend wanted a CS1 match just for lulz and I was like "How the hell do you play this game!? D:"

Ok, I guess that's fair to say in CT, but I still think it was too lulzy to be a thing. C'mon, that wasn't fair at all lol.

Me too, at first the UB setup looked SO hard, and then I got that I just had to time my release and then I'm done .__.

For some really cool corner combos in CSX, look for Dio. Jourdal uploaded some of him recently, and Dio is freaking amazing. He really mixes it up. If you need a link, I'll link it here. Or maybe I'll post it in the video thread since no one updates it.

@Mascarpone: I use jC > 2D in CS2 but just because it looks cool lol. I'm just a fan of flashy combos lol.

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Well, you should know that UB is really easy to do it against Tager on BBSEX.

5B,2B,5C, 3]D[, IAD, j.A, j.A, j.B,j2.C, j.A, j.A, j.B, 3]D[ UB.

I guess I should have clarified...sorry...There were times were I play offline matches with a friend (whom was Tager) and all I needed was to get a good j.C in then just j.B,j.C x N...the "combo" was all red too...but what you're refering to here is stuff I do like and will miss with the lovely 3]D[...D:

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I honestly have NO idea, but I literally cannot remember how Carl played in CS1 or how to play CS1 Carl lol. Like the other day, my friend wanted a CS1 match just for lulz and I was like "How the hell do you play this game!? D:"

I wont lie all I remember playing CS1 Carl is chasing the opponent that constantly backstepping, getting pissed because the opponent keep running (granted my carl is a lot better now). But the new j.C really helped that. I dont know about CT Carl either since I main Tao then...but all i ever heard was grab loops all day!

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I thought this was funny because I did this to a Mu player last night, and they literally stopped playing lolol

I wish I had opponents like that...usually mine just "lose their connection"...>_<

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CS1 was basically:

-Hide behind nirvana with her insane amount of health.

-Spam j.B into 3k solo combo. (j.B was THE best fatal counter move in the game)

-Do high damage resets into high damage combos.

-Your opponent either died in 2-4 combos or they died always getting hit by nirvana.

CS1 carl will always be the most fun to me. Extend Carl is the closest to CS1 carl I've seen so far so I'm pretty happy.

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Yeah 2C isn't cutting it. Carl would have been absolutely ridiculous in CS2 and CSE if he still had j.B FC. It was sooo long ago. Back when life was better. I forgot about j.B like you guys.

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Well idk about that,, if you think about it. We still are on the short end of the stick with the few characters who cannot get good dmg of a air hitconferm. But the characters that dont at lease get good dmg in the corner from a good starter, and can surpass 6k dmg with 100 heat. We lack the same mid screen dmg everyone else has, we lack the same air hitconferm ability as everyone else, we also lack the same damage potential that the remainder of the cast has. So if we had a fatal (God forbide) we would actually still be quite normal. 4k Mid screen from fatal 0 heat & 5k corner with 0 heat. An we would be able to buff it up to 4k-6k midscreen 100heat & 5k-7k corner fatal 100 heat. What character cant get good damage from there fatal.... Oh carl thats right,, i forgot >.< thats just plain stupid. We also have to know our fatal is going to hit if not our combo will still be ass. All fatals hit conferm them self. Stop and think about ever characters fatal,, they all give a ridiculous amount of hit stun or stagger & all can be hit confermed into OP damage. So why is ours not only the hardes to hit, it doesnt gattling into ANY NORMAL, we cannot use it during combos, and it still gives crap damage. Come one sun,, get the fuck outta here. That is sum baby back bull shit, we the only character with a non realistic fatal in fact... im 100% sure if 2C were removed it would effect carls game play by 0% =/ the move isnt used at all nore is it worth the time. 3C is our best starter so why not make it our fatal. But whatever im not the one making the game v.v

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yeah you caught yourself cause I was gonna say that 2C is pretty crucial even in extend for some combos. But yeah. j.B FC was such a good hitconfirm. BTW who were you referring to in the beginning of your post?

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I feel like arksys wants Carl's damage to be low to account for his generally above-average mix up and (though no longer godly as all hell) solid oki game. Weather or not they push the low damage too far is another story, but I understand the logic at least. I wouldn't mind a good Fatal counter though. That would be just dandy. Doesn't even have to be as great as j.B was.

Or maybe some real AA properties on 2.C, that would be fine. Just a tad of head-invulnerability wouldn't kill. And it's not like we could get -that- much damage off it as a FC i don't think :x

Also Aki, 2.C fatal -dose- leave them unable to tech until hitting the ground so vivace A -> air combos is in fact possible, and you do have time to teleport nirvana in as well. however you do have a point that hit confirming it is kinda dumb because it's weird hit box/profile and no invincibility -do- make it stupidly hard to counter with. And if it's bated it's retardedly negative on block. and vivace won't save you either.

and again, still probably not getting great damage off it. probably 4.5k with 50 meter i'd guess? I'd experiment with it but My execution is often ass. so it would be frustrating trying to figure out optimal combos off it.

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Interesting convo

I would have to say that 2C is an ok fatal. The main reason is because i doubt somebody would see it coming, or being used as an Anti-Air. However, it is somewhat tricky to hit confirm, i agree on that.

I honestly thought that 2D or even a fully charged 6C would be good fatals.

However, Carl really shouldn't be doing 5-7k combos anyway, since that would make your opponent way too free. He should be able to do catch your opponent off guard since ada can technically catch your opponent 100% of the time, and the resets can lead to 6000 dmg alone. But I do not condone the damage nerfs, those are confusing to me as well.

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Interesting convo

I would have to say that 2C is an ok fatal. The main reason is because i doubt somebody would see it coming, or being used as an Anti-Air. However, it is somewhat tricky to hit confirm, i agree on that.

I honestly thought that 2D or even a fully charged 6C would be good fatals.

However, Carl really shouldn't be doing 5-7k combos anyway, since that would make your opponent way too free. He should be able to do catch your opponent off guard since ada can technically catch your opponent 100% of the time, and the resets can lead to 6000 dmg alone. But I do not condone the damage nerfs, those are confusing to me as well.

Uhh im not sure who you are fighting, but when im carl i use up 90% of adas Hp just trying to corner someone. By the time i actually get them adas hp is high enough for 1 6k combo before she dies... So i settle for 3k & keep her alive. So no its not 100% & with the addition of our UB reset gone it now truly becomes a problem. I have people holding 7 8 & 9 during my combos so when ever i do go for a reset they just jump out. It also forces me to use 8D alot to keep them from getting away. An now that will kill even more meter because of the added repetition cost, So im not understanding. All of our other UB setups are either mash vulnerable or 7 8 & 9 vulnerable how do you intend on doing this 'Godlike mixup you speak of.'

Me as a carl player, i have never used any of his BS to win my fights. I learn it to see if there are holes in it,, once i realise there are none i refuse to use it. So i had to improvise since CT and iv been forced to 'learn carl' inside and out. I know for a fact that keeping someone locked down without a air UB 8D is impossible. Trying resets on someone who holds 7 8 or 9 is a waste, trying resets on someone who mashes is a waste. CARL IS ASS NOW,, this is something i have been forced to face since CT. All our normals have very crap hitboxes, our AA has been shit all the way up untillCS2 & our punish potential is hella low. Come on seriously how often do you see people hit carls 2C in an actual high skilled game. Because ill tell you now,, it doesnt happen.

The only thing i look forward to now, is the new 22D & 66 cancel. They make us almost a legit character. With the new 22D 4D combos can be done from N-C-O position since the new 22D puts you in C-N-O and that means our average damage went up. Along with the new dash cancel which will give our crap normals just a little more range to punish people. I truly dont see carl being higher then B-tier in the next game.

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Hmm take a look at this,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1cMHw8YkmM\

@ 6:00 you can see what i was talking about, litchi held 7 and escaped the 4D crossup

@ 6:35 carl does volante jb jc all in a blockstring, then lands an does a forward dash. After the forward dash litchi did her CA im sure jC never had that much hitstun and she IB the jC and was still in hitstun ?.? i think ijc went up a level. Im assuming it makes it safer as a jumpin. No more IAD jc > Eat dp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtJiNnttie0

@8:15

Lol my prayers have been answered.... CH Brio= 5k 0heat in the corner

Im not sure if this is a P1 buff on Brio, a P2 buff on 2D or a P2 buff on j2c.... But the damage is most definitively coming from one of the 3 attacks... Cause 5k 0Heat is very new for this version of carl. were is Isuyaru when you need him >.<

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litchi does get a slight jump out advantage because she has a faster jump. I can say from experience that if timed just right the 4d cross up can catch people in their jump start up. Doesn't mean its perfect nor does it discount your point about jump outs but it is worth.mentioning that litchi has always sucked because of her range and quick jump.

Loving the sound of a real corner combo. Ill have to check it when I get home.

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litchi does get a slight jump out advantage because she has a faster jump

As of the CS1>CS2 Patch Litchi's jump startup was changed to be the average 4 frames.

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@Akira

You're not making much sense... If you can't lockdown or mixup opponents then you're not playing well. Plain and simple.

Also I'm not sure how the increased meter use on repetition with Nirvana works exactly but in CSE she has much more meter for combos and takes much less damage when being hit. Carl has more damage potential in CSE although slightly less UB strength (CS2 was just ridiculous, almost completely UNblockable and burst safe/safe from 90% of DPs, and his mixups are still basically the strongest in the game CSE) and worse oki (which is made up for with less meter consumption outside combos). He is at least B tier (I think pretty much all the cast is), possibly A or higher again.

If you think he's ass in CSE, just watch Ryuusei (not even the highest PSR Carl) take down some monstrous players:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg9yTgft0aU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL#t=8m34s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX_pC1t7zp0&feature=bf_next&list=ULSyE0oBZKZKM&lf=mfu_in_order

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdAH6MoL7SA&feature=bf_next&list=ULxX_pC1t7zp0&lf=mfu_in_order#t=7m36s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I-hIlJ78-0&feature=bf_next&list=ULIdAH6MoL7SA&lf=mfu_in_order#t=2m26s

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Im the one who is editing this thread,,, and if you noticed i removed the part that says Ada takes less damage from enemy attacks after further inspection i noticed she takes the same amount of damage from enemy attacks. Her attacks however do take less energy. Also it is impossible to actually "Lock" someone down & use mixup. Now please do keep in mind that carl only has 1 Safe UB setup, that would be his 3D/JB reset. EVERY & i mean EVERY other UB setup you can get out of by either mashing, holding 7 8 or 9, and or using a Dp/DD at the right time. It is impossible to lock someone down & use a UB reset unless your using the 3D/JB now please do keep in mind that this specific UB reset was removed....well it being loopable was removed. And it still cost 1/3 of adas meter to use it even once. This amount of meter consumption isnt worth the damage at all since her meter gaining & cooldown were both nerfed.

Also keep in mind that i do play carl vs some of the best PSN players, SKD, Tempestdalia, SRZ, & lostsoul. I dont use the jb/3D reset at all. They have all found a way out of almost all of my resets/crossups. If you were to combine the knowledge they all posses it would be impossible & worthless to even think about using carl vs anyone of them. Like i said before, nothing in a fighting game is absolute, there will always be a way out. It may take a while to figure it out, but it is always possible to escape carls UB setups. It is impossible to say "Well in this fight, carl got 3 perfects.. so that means he is good"............. False he could still be ass, that specific person he was fighting might not have known all the different ways to escape. It means nothing to me for you to show me fights. On solid paper carl is ass, regardless of how gdlk he is vs the Japanese/American population. We rely on shinanegans ftw.

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