[CS2-CSE] Carl Clover General Discussion - Shota Shorts Edition

[YukiBlue]

Thats some of the best info I've ever gotten from Dustloop, thanks a million.

When I get home tonight I'll study what you all wrote like it's the Carl holy book.

Again, thanks a ton.

[Akira-Shiro]

Nice. I wonder how much that would do with two gold bursts in there.

10.7k lol

However as i was doing the combo i felt like i could have done more after the volante hits im 100% sure u can do j2c-allecan>(6D)5c>6D>Air combo> 8D>j2c>allegreto>8D>Fermata which is probably an extra 1.5k dmg.

[JG]

10.7k lol

However as i was doing the combo i felt like i could have done more after the volante hits im 100% sure u can do j2c-allecan>(6D)5c>6D>Air combo> 8D>j2c>allegreto>8D>Fermata which is probably an extra 1.5k dmg.

10.7K? lol, that is what happen when you have creativity with Carl... I never tried to learn double gold burst combos, because i always feel that is waste of burst >_>. Still, im happy with my 7.3K combo in corner >_<, when i do it, makes me grow beard.

[Psykotik]

Considering that you already to dish out some hits to gain that meter, 5k will probably be all you need by the time you get 100 meter, let alone 7 or 10k. Still, this stuff makes for great combo video material (cue youtube scrubs calling Carl op).

[JG]

Considering that you already to dish out some hits to gain that meter, 5k will probably be all you need by the time you get 100 meter, let alone 7 or 10k. Still, this stuff makes for great combo video material (cue youtube scrubs calling Carl op).

You have to admit it, Carl is OP in EX

[Psykotik]

Mmmm, I guess Carl is pretty dumb when you think about it (but then again, one third of the cast is also dumb in some way).

[JG]

Mmmm, I guess Carl is pretty dumb when you think about it (but then again, one third of the cast is also dumb in some way).

Yeah, but not Carl level. Also Carl is not dumb, he is just sick. Why he isn´t dumb? because to perform his sick tool you need a lot execution level and you CAN´T mash like the S chars in this game (Ragna, Valk).

[Psykotik]

Yeah, but not Carl level. Also Carl is not dumb, he is just sick. Why he isn´t dumb? because to perform his sick tool you need a lot execution level and you CAN´T mash like the S chars in this game (Ragna, Valk).

When I said dumb, I wasn't mean to say that he was easy (he's not even close to easy lol). I meant that he has some borderline-broken tools and perks (midscreen 5k combos, a DP-safe UB setup, stupid good mix-up and pressure, etc.). The only reason that he's not S-tier is because those aforementioned perks are balanced with his gaping flaws.

Even then, I'd say that you could still put up an argument that he's S-tier.

[JG]

When I said dumb, I wasn't mean to say that he was easy (he's not even close to easy lol). I meant that he has some borderline-broken tools and perks (midscreen 5k combos, a DP-safe UB setup, stupid good mix-up and pressure, etc.). The only reason that he's not S-tier is because those aforementioned perks are balanced with his gaping flaws.

Even then, I'd say that you could still put up an argument that he's S-tier.

Mmmm... A+ indeed, one only need to check the last two big BB tourneys in Japan to understand why we are saying that about Carl. But im starting to feel that because now all the big BB tournament have ended, the big Carl player aren´t playing anymore U_U.

The sad thing is that, Carl indeed is S+++ but his main problem with that, is the skill level that one need to achieve to get into that level. Just check Kyaku, Ranrero or Ryusee comparison to the other Carl player like Dio, Nishinishi, etc.

[Akira-Shiro]

I would never agree to carl being S-tier when people can walk on Adas face for free,,, i even say kyako sit and watch ragna hit her. All our normals have shitty hitboxes,,, all we need is 1good poke & i would totaly agree that we are Stier. But untill i can 5c someone for hitting ada without trading we will forever be A in my eyes. tbh i swear we are low A

But the damage we get is suer sexy

[JG]

I would never agree to carl being S-tier when people can walk on Adas face for free,,, i even say kyako sit and watch ragna hit her. All our normals have shitty hitboxes,,, all we need is 1good poke & i would totaly agree that we are Stier. But untill i can 5c someone for hitting ada without trading we will forever be A in my eyes. tbh i swear we are low A

But the damage we get is suer sexy

I don´t think that is so easy hit Nirvana. In Ragna case 4]D[ beat all Ragna moves. Indeed our normals have bad hitboxes, but 2B with dash cancel is pretty decent for poking and because of his hitbox, can hit under a lot of other moves.

Ours 5C and 2B do a fairly decent job of pokking the rival, but the most important thing in ours normals is, that from any A or B we can go directly to CoN or pressure.

Also, if the rival keep hitting Nirvana you can do:

- Alle~dashing

- 5C, 2B or sometimes 623C

- Rhapsody of Melodies or Gear Super if you are close enough.

- And this, one of my favorites option: Rocket Jump. If he start to hit Nirvana just Rocket Jump at them to put you in CoN position.

If you learned the UB loop i asure you that the rival will not hit Nirvana for free because he will more focused on avoid Carl.

[Niko]

All our normals have shitty hitboxes

And they got worse from CS! I did some hitbox comparisons the other day, and it's not pretty.

▲ CONTINUUM SHIFT

▲ CS EXTEND

Almost all of his normals (including air ones) had their blue hitboxes extended like that...they made even 5C -- which was already prone to trading -- worse than before! It did feel like I'm trading more than I used to, and now I know why...

[YukiBlue]

Any way to get into CON state after Cantabile 22D?

[Psykotik]

This combo: starter, 623C, 22D, 5C, j.B/input 2D, slight delay, j.C, 2D hits, land, Vivace, continue combo

It's a bit tricky to get at first so just keep practicing it.

[Kujikawa]

There is no UK Carl player so my experience is almost nill, but:

Are any of Nirvana's attacks NOT air unblockable? I just watched a Carl match and found out 63214D wasn't air unblockable, lol.

[sinder]

There is no UK Carl player so my experience is almost nill, but:

Are any of Nirvana's attacks NOT air unblockable? I just watched a Carl match and found out 63214D wasn't air unblockable, lol.

what"s 63214D? as for air moves thatb aren't unblockable, brio is one of them. 8D is though. fermatta isn't

[Kujikawa]

what"s 63214D? as for air moves thatb aren't unblockable, brio is one of them. 8D is though. fermatta isn't

Her command grab.

Sorry, I don't know Carl lol

I meant Con Fuoco (41236]D[)

Thanks.

[TD]

been playing carl a while now...

does carl have a reliable, universal volante combo midscreen? been trying things like 2a 5bb 623c 22d 5c jb(421d) j2c jb djb jc. but its been extremely inconsistent for me.

-whats his oki like for the different players/doll(s) positions? l only know of fuoco after j.c ender frim anywhere... can volante be used as a meaty for oki? is it wise to do combos that leave nirvana a great deal away from the opponent and carl in close range?

there are so many variables, my head hurts

[Psykotik]

does carl have a reliable, universal volante combo midscreen? been trying things like 2a 5bb 623c 22d 5c jb(421d) j2c jb djb jc. but its been extremely inconsistent for me.

If this is the problem I'm thinking of, then all you need to do is make it a sj.B and it'll work. Or it is a different problem?

My favorite volante midscreen combo is 5B, 6B, 623C (22D), 5C, j.B (input 2D), slight delay, j.C (2D hits), land, 236A, 5C, j.B (421D), dj.B, j.2C, j.C (412D hits), land, j.B, j.2C, j.B, dj.B, j.C. I usually forgo corner carry for raw damage though.

For oki, 5C + fuoco is the most reliable option since 5C prevents tech rolling and fuoco traps them for a long time. As for a meaty volante, it could work but 5C + fuoco is more reliable.

For combos that leave Nirvana far away, you can just summon Nirvana after the combo finishes (or maybe even before then) and she's right there.

[TD]

for volante combo l meant not summoning her at all, like using volante from wherever she is on the screen and getting the the ball to hit. really, a meter-friendly volante combo.

as for 5c fuoco, what enders can l do this from? what's the timing on it as well? just wanna know so l don't get blown up

[Psykotik]

If you're talking about throwing a volante and getting it to hit from any given distance, then all I can really say is "guesstimate" Ada's distance and throw out the volante when you think it's appropriate. One thing to remember is that if you throw out a volante, it'll go about 2/3rd-3/4th screen length in the time it takes to do [j.B, j.2C, j.B, dj.B, j.C].

The summon won't really take up that much meter though so I wouldn't worry about being conservative unless Ada's really low on meter (and even then, it's ill advised to throw out volante then since that move eats up a crazy amount of meter compared to other moves). At your current stage, I wouldn't worry too much about meter efficiency as long as you don't let Ada die.

That said, if you really want to deal with meter efficiency, one trick to conserve Ada's meter is to deactivate her whenever you can. The reason why is because Ada's moves actually have a cost multiplier that affects the cost of the next consecutive move she does. For example, repeatedly using a move with an activation cost off 1000 and cost multiplier of 120% without de-activating Ada will cost 1000 -> 1200 -> 1440 -> etc. By deactivating Ada, you'll reset the multipliers and conserve more meter as a result.

As for the 5C + fuoco oki, I'd do that off any situation where you get a knockdown and are in a sandwich.

If you don't mind reading/ignoring moonrunes, these 3 videos have a crazy amount of Carl tech. Most of these are pretty legit too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4YmM1a0qPM (the most "basic" video of the three, most of the combos are unoptimized as a result)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCzH9MwK8T0 (intermediate-advanced tech)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9B8utMIfLg&feature=g-all-u&context=G22f9fbbFAAAAAAAADAA (mostly advanced tech, shows the optimized combos off every almost possible confirm)

I know, learning Carl is quite a bit of work. The fact that you have to learn a clusterfuck of stuff with our limited DL resources doesn't help either. Keep working at it and you'll have a good Carl at some point.

[TD]

ah! thanks for the input and vids, very helpful stuff in those vids, particularly resets, mixups, pressure, and flashy combos. this ought to help quite a bit

[TD]

ok, so i've been playing carl a few days, and l have a decent chunk of stuff down (though some of it, l still can't do in real matches yet). but the progession is there.

i'm still having trouble in some areas though. particularly, neutral, pressure, and what to do after l finish a combo.

neutral: fuoco has been almost useless so far, everyone sees it coming, even on block/hit i'm all too often, too far to capitalize.

getting the sandwich has been difficult. again, everyone has basically seen 5b IAD crossup a billion times already. please tell me there are other ways to get the sandwich/nirvana near T.T

plus, using 6d when l get the sandwich seems counterproductive. it takes forever and a day for nirvana to recover and oops the opponent just jumped out and i'm probably about to die now. but l can't find another way to keep the foe pinned yet.

any input would be super helpful, i'll also be taking a look at more vids and the archive thread to seek some of that tech.

[sinder]

ok, so i've been playing carl a few days, and l have a decent chunk of stuff down (though some of it, l still can't do in real matches yet). but the progession is there.

i'm still having trouble in some areas though. particularly, neutral, pressure, and what to do after l finish a combo.

neutral: fuoco has been almost useless so far, everyone sees it coming, even on block/hit i'm all too often, too far to capitalize.

getting the sandwich has been difficult. again, everyone has basically seen 5b IAD crossup a billion times already. please tell me there are other ways to get the sandwich/nirvana near T.T

plus, using 6d when l get the sandwich seems counterproductive. it takes forever and a day for nirvana to recover and oops the opponent just jumped out and i'm probably about to die now. but l can't find another way to keep the foe pinned yet.

any input would be super helpful, i'll also be taking a look at more vids and the archive thread to seek some of that tech.

first off, throwing fuoco out during neutral state is something all beginner carls seem to do, and it is NOT helpful (well it does depend on the situation but more on the later). fuoco is probably carl's best meaty as it has a huge amount of guard stun. therefore it would be better to always use it as an oki option, which can lead to getting the opponent out of a tech roll and immediatelly into C-O-N. the reason you are too far after nirvana zooms away is because you aren't dashing behind her, which actually extends fuoco's range, and with a B version vivace allows for a CON state because of the huge fram advantage you're given.

TL;DR: use fuoco after a knock down

what to do after finishing combos is tough for me to explain, since i usually go for resets in order to keep the opponent in CON as much possible. However, i would assume that you have a life lead after performing the combo, which would mean that the opponent can no longer derp it out and troll on the other side of the screen. your opponent should go for carl after the combo, and this is where you may have trouble reacting too since you're new to carl. when the opponent decides to go for carl, this is usually an easy way to get them into CON state because they are going to be a little less cautious and the worst move for them to get hit by is brio because of the tech time it takes to recover from a CH. you, as the carl player, should take advantage of the life lead and wait for your opponent to attempt a close in, and then punish them for it. expect a burst immediately after you do because they will 1) feel salty and 2) this would mean game over for them.

unfortunately if you do not have a life lead, and your opponent is no longer in CON, you are going to need to chase them down while they run away. nevertheless, this probelm should'nt come up if you do a reset into a real combo, which both add up to about 5k in damage and more than 50 heat as a back up measure

6d issue

if you are saying that 6d is counterproductive, your blockstring is not long enough for ada to recover. in order to keep your opponent in CON, you can do the following:

2A,A,2A,A,5B,5B,6D (loops twice, then opponent can dp after 3rd attempt)

remember that 5B can combo into 2B and vice versa, which makes uo for the amount of frames ada needs to recover after using 6D

IAD issue

many strong players know about the crossup, so they will either jump or backdash, if they jump, let them run because backdashing is a better alternative since it can make for a clean punish

pressure game

use different combos in CON. the best pressure combos have the most awkward controls (mixes of 5B and 2B followed with a 6C and 3D high low mixup)

i wish a had a ps3, since i could use a ton of rachel mentoring

[TD]

XD thanks some of this has helped in real matches. l'm still havin trouble with fuoco 5c oki, though - are there any videos of this form of oki?

oh, and, who are the carls l should be looking at? right now l have kyaku, dio, and ryuusei right now. there's this original carl that l like, he cuts his combos short for alot of fun looking oki. they're all beast players.

and... you don't need my help... not when we have the rc bible XD

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14170-kro_-s-Rachel-Bible-Extend-Edition-Join-the-religion!