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pktazn

[CP1.1] Tsubaki Yayoi General - Gameplay Discussion

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The reason it's labeled as a FC instead of just leaving it as a CH is because there are different properties to them. What happens in a FC is different from if it were just a regular CH so it's important to mention that it's fatal. Not everyone knows that a move's CH is fatal as well so it's easier in the long run to just label it as such.

But it doesn't MATTER. If I read a combo that says Move1[CH] > Move2 > Move3 > Move4, from the perspective of me doing that combo, it makes no difference to me whether Move1 is a fatal counter or not. Yes, the combo is only possible because Move1 is a fatal counter move, but that's no different from the combo only being possible because Move1 has 100% P1 or something, and we don't write THAT in the combo notes. It's not like you can somehow NOT get a Fatal Counter when you do a counterhit with an FC move, so the label is just unnecessary bookkeeping to me.

It probably means that if you do 22C > 6C in a combo it will work but if you just try to do the 22C > 6C by itself it won't work.

I fail to understand how this could make any sense. @_@

But yes - I agree with Daeddron - our max damage is really ridiculously unimpressive considering what other characters are capable of, even under 'real world' situations. And our "real world" situations are actually harder to come by than almost anyone else's other than maybe Hakumen's, because for us, a "max damage" situation not only requires what it does for everyone else (Perfect position, excellent counterhit starter, 100% heat, blahbah), but it also requires a bunch of charges that the rest of the cast doesn't have to worry about.

I continue to have doubts that Arcsys is designing this character intelligently.

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I fail to understand how this could make any sense. @_@

blahblahblahbunchofshit

P1 value for 22C could be really shitty, and the p2 value would allow 6C followup.

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SBO is hilarious.

I would start to consider it being a valid measure of anything if it were at least best of 3 matches. single match moves on, give me a break. When you actually watch the finals and see how many mistakes were made.. it's hard to take it seriously.

all the same, bring on the nerfs, this board is getting too popular.

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EDIT: SBO is a valid of measure imo but this isn't the thread to talk about that either...

But it doesn't MATTER. If I read a combo that says Move1[CH] > Move2 > Move3 > Move4, from the perspective of me doing that combo, it makes no difference to me whether Move1 is a fatal counter or not. Yes, the combo is only possible because Move1 is a fatal counter move, but that's no different from the combo only being possible because Move1 has 100% P1 or something, and we don't write THAT in the combo notes. It's not like you can somehow NOT get a Fatal Counter when you do a counterhit with an FC move, so the label is just unnecessary bookkeeping to me.

This really isn't the thread to explain this but considering the game itself even yells "Fatal" instead of "Counter" when it happens it's necessary to label it as such. Even the Japanese label CH and FC combos separately.

Also not all fatals happen right away on CH such as Taokaka's 2C which needs to be fully charged before it's even considered a fatal when it counter hits and some of Rachel's combos with j.2C require it to be a fatal even though it won't count as a FC until it reaches level 3.

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I understand the mechanics of FCs; What I don't understand and probably never will is the compulsion to label them under any circumstances other than the odd exceptions where you need to do something special to make it FC.

Anyway, the implication is, though, that just because someone didn't label something FC is -no- reason to assume that the move doesn't fatal counter, if other information indicates it does.

That's all.

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A lot these changes are weird and don't look good on paper. IDK, the 5C buffs and J.C buffs are good but does it even have the untech time of 2C. I want to reserve my judgement until I see match vids. As long as she's not CS1 status I think I will stay play her.

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I understand the mechanics of FCs; What I don't understand and probably never will is the compulsion to label them under any circumstances other than the odd exceptions where you need to do something special to make it FC.

Anyway, the implication is, though, that just because someone didn't label something FC is -no- reason to assume that the move doesn't fatal counter, if other information indicates it does.

That's all.

*comes to see how the tsubakis feel about the change*

*sees this bullshit*

*sees it's by airk*

Why does this even matter? we've been labeling them as such in combos since cs1...we are basically on cs3, meaning its been the standard notation for three games now. The game even specifically says fatal, and the japanese wiki's label FC combos with....oh shit FC @_@. Even if everyone just labeled it CH its still two fucking letters, seriously get over it. And didnt pk blow up your "infallible" (LOLOL@the very idea) logic showing that not all FCs will FC under all circumstances? Yes, that's what i thought. Aren't you like...not buying this game or something, make the tsu forums a happier place if you get what i mean.

tl;dr

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12011-BB-CS2-Discussion-and-Questions&p=1110107&viewfull=1#post1110107

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Sorry I went off on a tangent, but that was uncalled for.

Anyway, I think my original point, lost as is, is still valid: We shouldn't assume that 3C isn't now a fatal counter just because someone wrote a combo without specifically marking it as a fatal counter. That's all.

Now back to everyone complaining about different kinds of stupid stuff.

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Now back to everyone complaining about different kinds of stupid stuff.

I want to win, so every nerf is "stupid."

Makes it harder for me, after all.

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Well yeah, and I feel any nerfing is unwarranted considering Tsubaki's firm "middle of the list" position on the chart, but it's EXTRA stupid because we don't even really know what's going on. Nothing fills me with confidence like someone saying "Blah is definitely blah" because that makes it clear just how much of a judgement call it is.

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I am not going to be a fair weather player, I had fun with Tsubaki and I refuse to just let her go now. I mean we are not at CS1 level of hard yet. Right? The nerfing DOES seem rather silly for such an average character...and I hate to bring this silly rumour up but maybe the nerfs really ARE from Mori trying to scare people away from his waifu :U

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Meh, I'll still main Ms.Yayoi regardless of the nerfs. I mean, I dont like the nerfs of course, especially for 5B. But Tsubaki is who I like so I'll still be maining her. Besides, the only other character I'll play is Noel.

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Kuresu shows up in Tachikawa which I'm uploading as excerpts but I'll post what I'm seeing:

Any combos listed are what I saw him do in the video.

Against Hane:

  • j.D is the fastest way to get charges atm
  • 5D is slower but not CS1 slow. Can't spam 5D, 5D, 5D and get two charges but can still be used to get charges
  • 623A looks like it's better or the same (Hane blocked it but Kuresu was able to recover and barrier but not sure if it was because Hane used Litchi's 6C)
  • 5B is slower (not super slow) but 5C being faster is noticable since he used it pressure a couple of times and dashed afterwards.
  • Mid-screen damage is lower (but this is universal)
  • Dashes appear to be used after 236D in order for the 5C to connect
  • 3C is fatal on hit and you don't have to rapid. Kuresu went from 3C > 6CC > air combo and it connected at the beginning of the round
  • Don't know if this has to be done every time but he RC'd after doing the low BnB (though it may have been so he could charge afterwards: 2A > 5CC > 236C > 214C > 22C
  • 5C is used in combos where 5B was normally used: CH j.B > j.C > j.214D > dash 236D > 5C > 2CC > j.CC (round ends)
  • DP whiff corner combo still possible but needs tweaks: j.CC > 5CC > DP whiff > j.CC > j.214D > 5CC (drops after 2CC since it 2CC misses)
  • Air CH 236D > dash 5C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j.236D works
  • CH 5A > 5BB > 5CC > 22C > 6CC > 623C > j.214A > 6CC works
  • Throw > 236C > 214B > 22A worked
  • IAD combo has been modified: CH j.C > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2CC > j.CC > j. 214C (don't know if you can still do 236B > 214B > 22 after 5C > 2CC)
  • IAD combos appear more varied/flexible this time around: CH 2CC > IAD j.B j.C > 2C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214C > j.D > j.C
  • From the combo above it looks like j.214D has more untechable time? (he was able to charge a bit from j.D and still have the j.C connect and the combo was still red beat unless you could do this in CS2)


    Against Satsuno:

    • Have to charge cancel more often during pressure again
    • CH 236D > 5D > dash 6CC > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC does not work (Taokaka may have been too low for the j.CC to connect)
    • 2D charging is slower: not sure if it still speeds up after a few seconds
    • 3CC does not look like it was cancellable (like special or jump) to anything (may still have to rapid if it's 3CC)
    • 5C used in pressure more often
    • 5C > 6CC > 236D > 2CC > IAD j.CC > 5C > 2C > j.CC > 236A > 214? in the corner works
    • j.BB > j.C > j. 236D > j.214C(w) > dash 5B > 2C > j.CC works (combo dropped after trying use 236A)
    • Looks like 5C went through Tao's CA...

    Noticeable in both vids: Charges are harder to get, charge cancelling was used more, and D move proration does appear to be worse compared to CS2. I also did not notice any DP whiff combos mid-screen. /expected

    My judgement from what I've seen considering the opponents he went against: Tsubaki will be fine.

    Videos:

    Kuresu vs Hane (Litchi)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiq_osSaQXg

    Kuresu vs Satsuno (Taokaka)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BC2KxynzDE

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That write up sounds like a good sign of news. How about the D moves? Is the proration (sp?) that bad as the change list makes seem or is it barely noticeable?

Edit: Just saw that match on Jourdal's channel. New tsubaki isn't as bad as I thought she would.

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My judgement from what I've seen considering the opponents he went against: Tsubaki will be fine.

5B nerf is goddamn retarded, and that alone says she's in a precarious position.

When shield rush is how I'm being asked to control horizontal space I just want to give a giant FUCK YOU to ArcSys, tbqh.

Also, using week one to say how Tsubaki looks competitively is silly. She looked okay at the beginning of CS1, too, but we all know how that turned out.

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I'm just saying she looks like she'll be fine from what I've seen. Time will tell of course about her competitively but it's still a lot better than how some were making her out to be especially since this is just the third day the game has been out.

And using some changes on paper to determine how good she will be competitively is silly too.

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Tsubaki's pressure looks stupid with 5C being faster and whatever was in the change notes about charge canceling (I'm assuming charges have less recovery or something?). Now I just wish 6C was faster so it would be easier to confirm CH 5C into 6C.

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Yes, charge cancelling is basically cancelling out the recovery to the move used before by charging since iirc D recovers a bit faster. It was used a lot in CS1 to continue her pressure though in CS:EX it appears you can use 5D/2D safely instead of just 2D (in CS1).

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I remember charge canceling PK. Pretty much the only mixup I would do back in CS1 was 5C>2D>dash up grab =P

I just hope that charge canceling pressure is a lot tighter than it was in the other two CS's. I remember seeing people using charge canceling when CS2 first came out, but no one was using it after a while because of all the wholes in it =\

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[*]CH 236D > 5D > dash 6CC > 214D > 2CC > IAD j.CC does not work

From what I saw, Taokaka was pretty low, so Satsuno may just have teched before the first j.C hit.

Anyway, thanks for the vids! And yeah, Tsubaki doesn't seem that bad so far.

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I'll add that to the notes, I didn't notice that. Thanks!

My bad TheGreatReptar! But now it's also there for people who may not know :D

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---Posting this in here instead of video comp thread since it seems more appropriate.

I see... to keep corner advantage and still do jumping finisher, he forgos the double jump and then air dashs forward or back depending on the situation.

Something people have done in the past but hasn't needed to do since 236 > etc etc ender came around in CS 2.

The faster 5C is a force to be reckoned with due to the proration and CH combo property as well as the continuation possibilities. It's not an even trade for our best poke getting slower but it certainly will make a difference.

It's going to be a fun few week of discovery as new technology slowly starts to surface.

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