About Creativity

[Sophisticat]

EDIT: Scroll lower to the quote for the main point of this thread. It's evolved a bit since the OP

I've been thinking about this for a while now. When helping out other guys, when setting up character/combo guides and such, and when offering critique on other's play, we always say "you shouldn't do that, but do this" or stuff like "this is how X character should be played", or maybe even "this is the way Y matchup has to play out".

I think it misses the point a bit. When you think about it, the amount of freedom you have in fighters is actually quite broad as compared to other types of games. There are, of course, the system's inherent limitations in each game which dictate what you can and cannot do. But overall, you're given a character, a stage, mechanics, and it's upt o you to figure out a way to beat the other guy.

It's not just limited to the game itself either; how you decide to play the game is entirely up to you. I play Hakumen. Most would say D counters are risky and you shouldn't really use them. But thinking about it, who cares, really? If you're good at using them, then by all means, abuse e'm. The opponent will have to spend more time going for throws, and now you can bait those, too. Mix it up, jiggle e'm, rattle e'm, and go for the jugular.

Let's also discuss the term "mixup". I believe this term is much too character-focused. For Ragna, "do 6b -> 2b". This is fine and dandy, but good players have learned to recognize this as a very simple mixup and so avoid it. The trick here is to apply human mixup. Be unpredictable in your use of Ragna's mixup, and I'll bet you you can land it 100% of the time.

So, in the end, who cares how you play your character? It's your style! Accept it, and abuse it to gain an edge over the competition. You like playing staffless Litchi? Go right ahead. Rushdown Tager? Be my guest. Turtle Ragna? You're fucked imo, but go right ahead. You decide how your character should be played according to your personality (Albeit with the hitch that your fundamentals must still be very much solid!).

This brings us to psychology, and the role of bluffing in FGs, which are, imo, very much underrepresented subjects when discussing fundamental aspects of play. Once each player knows the game like the back of his hand, it can be fairly aggravating to get in a hit. So what's left? You have to rattle e'm any way you can. Everyone who's been a participant in tournaments can also claim to have experienced "tourney nerves". A good player will recognize this in his opponent and press his advantage to jiggle him further. Applying this to top players now, each must find a way to beat the other, and, imo, this is done through bluffing. Bluffing can be something as simple as very strong, rock-solid defence. Since the other player cannot get in a hit, he'll start doubting whether he can win. And this doubt is what sows the seeds for his demise as his play breaks down not because the other guy's a better player, but because his own mind now becomes his worst enemy.

All this said, I believe the best player to be one who breaks the mould of "standard play". Play any goddamn way you want. There are some things you should practice (fundamentals) before being proficient in any fashion, but in the end my own experience has told me that it doesn't matter at all what you do with your character. Anything can win, you just need to figure a way how to do it.

And what this all comes down to is... creativity! Be an artist; the game's your canvas, and your controller the brush. Go wild!

I'll leave it at that for now. I am very much interested in the responses.

--------------

Basically, assuming you have a pool of players of equal strength, all using characters of equal strength, then what is the defining element that would make a small set of players consistently place at the top?

For example, it could be... :

- Better reaction speeds.

- Better analysis of the other guy's habits.

- More experience/play time.

- Better defence (can block everything à la Spark)

Etc., you get the point.

Now, of course characters aren't of equal strength. This is why we have tiers and matchups. When you say a matchup is 6-4, then the "6" character has a competitive edge over the other character for X and Y reasons. So, tiers are about character edges. This is fairly straightforward once the game has been out for a while; tiers don't move much.

My original intent with this thread was to talk about the player edge, and how it interacts with the chosen character.

So let's say you pick a really shitty character. This means your competitive edge has to be really good to beat the top tiers, right? If you're a phenomenal player, then this can be done. You have X and Y element that makes you a cut above the rest.

The question is, what is this element? Coming back to my OP, I assumed creativity. Perhaps that's my edge? I don't even know what my own edge is actually, lol.

Hope it's clear now. This should be much more conducive to discussion. :P

Anyway, I ask of everyone: what is your edge? Do you even know it?

Edited December 19, 2011 by Sophisticat

[zeech]

Nevertheless, a FG has many systems and mechanics that will shape the space of possibilities in the game, and how effective those possibilities are.

In order to take advantage of the wider options in a game, psychology, etc, I think a player needs to first have an understanding of the options available, and their relative values. You need to understand your tools before you can be creative AND effective. Otherwise you're just being random.

So when teaching players about the game or a character, I think its important to describe what works and doesnt work, and why.

Maybe "Ragna: Do 6B > 2B" is too simplistic without a proper explanation, so its much better to explain WHY as well. Then the learning player can start getting a feel for the other stuff he can try, relative to this. Telling someone, "Hey, I wont taint you by telling you what other people have learned about the character, you should be creative and do whatever!" doesnt help anyone.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Except, fighting games are about hitting the other person and winning, not being cool. (Unless you find winning to be cool, which I personally do too~)

Ultimately, you always want to do what's most effective against your current opponent and maximize your chances of winning. Fighting games are about learning how to figure out what's most effective and making sure you have the knowledge to apply it, then applying it. It's not "this is my style, this is how I play my character!" It's "my opponent is doing x, y, and z, so I need to play in this style to counter that and win!"

Edited December 17, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[Sophisticat]

Nevertheless, a FG has many systems and mechanics that will shape the space of possibilities in the game, and how effective those possibilities are.

In order to take advantage of the wider options in a game, psychology, etc, I think a player needs to first have an understanding of the options available, and their relative values. You need to understand your tools before you can be creative AND effective. Otherwise you're just being random.

So when teaching players about the game or a character, I think its important to describe what works and doesnt work, and why.

Maybe "Ragna: Do 6B > 2B" is too simplistic without a proper explanation, so its much better to explain WHY as well. Then the learning player can start getting a feel for the other stuff he can try, relative to this. Telling someone, "Hey, I wont taint you by telling you what other people have learned about the character, you should be creative and do whatever!" doesnt help anyone.

Yes, which is why I've stated that fundamentals are something you can't replace. You must have an understanding of these to make it with any kind of style, much less any character.

How someone uses something is up to them, and that's a part of the creativity I'm talking about. More on that later.

Except, fighting games are about hitting the other person and winning, not being cool. (Unless you find winning to be cool, which I personally do too~)

Ultimately, you always want to do what's most effective against your current opponent and maximize your chances of winning. Fighting games are about learning how to figure out what's most effective and making sure you have the knowledge to apply it, then applying it. It's not "this is my style, this is how I play my character!" It's "my opponent is doing x, y, and z, so I need to play in this style to counter that and win!"

This is too rigid, though. Your opponent is prone to trickery, cunning, and deception. It might look like he's about to do one of his same ol' patterns, but changes it up at the last moment.

Remember, you're fighting people, not robots! Unpredictability can and will make you lose.

-----

It seems like I might have given off the wrong impression here. I'll give a couple examples:

Classic GG match: KZO vs. Ogawa

For those who don't know, Ogawa is a legendary Eddie player. To boot, the HOS/Eddie matchup is hardly one of the better ones in the game. So, to beat Ogawa, KZO had to mixup his usual play. What you see here was a creative, riskier take on HOS that was designed to catch Ogawa off-guard. His decisions were designed to bring Ogawa outside of his comfort zone, and hey. It worked. Imo, this is the kind of creativity that's missing in most people's play when they're up vs. stronger players than themselves. They're too straight-laced.

About psychology, I'll take the recent Evo2k11 Spark v. LK Grand Finals: Part 1, Part 2.

Now, LK, Spark, do correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my take:

Spark's defence was his "bluff". Since he blocked pretty much everything and then countered it, it got to LK's nerves. A couple matches in, he suddenly switches to Makoto for no reason. Spark handily beats him. At this point, LK's seriously rattled, and it visibly shows in his play. The lowliest of scrub could have beaten LK right then (<3 you LK).

For LK to regain confidence, he would have had to rattle Spark's armour (i.e. find a way to crack his v. strong def). He could have won had he been able to do some unexpected bit of mixup or baiting of his own to invite Spark out of his shell then really twisting the knife. But, imo, LK's mind and nerves worked against him here and he was unsettled just half-way through.

So it has less to do with either player's abilities than their trust in an outcome. Of course Spark has great defence and that's a technical skill. But I'm willing to bet he couldn't hold it up if he were to be rattled somehow, and that would have been LK's cue to regain confidence and push back.

-----

And then, of course, you have cool-ass combo vids and doing flashy stuff for the sake of being flashy. That's awesome stuff.

It's not my point, though. What I mean to say is creativity in decision-making, and the confidence to trust your own abilities even vs. top players is what separates the wheat from the chaff. That's what I'm talking about.

So let's say you prefer rushdown, but like a defensive character. That's great, and it does work, because the most important thing in any match is your ability to execute, and that takes the right kind of mentality. So don't worry that you're not doing X properly with Y character, because it might actually not matter that much.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Sophisticat

[zeth07]

http://youtu.be/SLJEwktr4L4

http://youtu.be/IlpbdrFcCv8

These show examples of something I've noticed from watching a lot of Japanese matches. When the top players play the game A LOT they will know that the opponent is going to do X>Y>Z and whatever options off that stuff. They are so knowledgeable of the game they know what options are coming after certain moves and can react appropriately. What I see in some matches, like Ryota's Bang in the examples, is some players will do seemingly "random" shit that ends up working because it is unexpected. I use to say it to myself all the time, "why did that work?" or "why is he doing that?", and it would seem to logically be to throw the opponent off. Unless they are just trolling outright but that's hard to tell just from watching a match.

In this case and I'm guessing this is kinda what you're talking about, the most effective moves and strategies isn't the only thing you should be doing simply because the best players will KNOW you're going to be trying that stuff since they've seen it a million times. Being kinda random at times means the opponent won't be able to get a good read on what you might do.

Of course there are players who just play completely solid and don't do anything crazy, and just win by outplaying and reading the opponent correctly at the right times.

I don't know about other characters, but when I watch a bunch of different Bangs play, you can clearly see a difference in styles in how they play the game. If you watch Minami's Bang, then watch Ryota's, it's a huge difference. I guess my point is there's never really a "right" way to play that every person should be playing that way, instead it's more like here's the tools some tools are better than others but what you do with them is what matters.

[Sophisticat]

^ Precisely, Zeth.

I had an inkling you'd get it given how you play.

[mAc Chaos]

This is basically the next level above simple solid play. But it works best against people that you've played against so much that you both practically know how the other thinks, or someone who knows your options very well. If it's against some random mashing scrub you're probably better off just doing things the old fashioned way. Although I guess if it's a random scrub then you can do anything and get away with it.

[Sophisticat]

^ Dang straight it is.

It's just such an underrepresented subject that I felt someone should talk about it. Best I get the ball rolling.

Ok, I like where this is going better. Keep the replies coming.

[Dusk Thanatos]

This is too rigid, though. Your opponent is prone to trickery, cunning, and deception. It might look like he's about to do one of his same ol' patterns, but changes it up at the last moment.

Remember, you're fighting people, not robots! Unpredictability can and will make you lose.

That just falls under "my opponent does x>y>z, so I do a;" say, "my opponent blocks jump>aerial twice, so I do empty jump>throw instead." I don't consider that creative, I just consider that trying to just fucking hit your opponent since your other shit wasn't working. Is it mindgames? Sure, but nearly /everything/ is mindgames in one way or another.

I can't help but think that your view of "good play" is really restricted.

I also think you're wrong in encouraging people to play however they want with whatever character. If you want to turtle, you don't play a rushdown character, because a rushdown character won't have the tools to make that strategy successful. Play characters that let you do what you want. Fighting your character's design while fighting your opponent is not something you want to be doing.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Dusk Thanatos

[zeth07]

That just falls under "my opponent does x>y>z, so I do a;" say, "my opponent blocks jump>aerial twice, so I do empty jump>throw instead." I don't consider that creative, I just consider that trying to just fucking hit your opponent since your other shit wasn't working. Is it mindgames? Sure, but nearly /everything/ is mindgames in one way or another.

I can't help but think that your view of "good play" is really restricted.

I also think you're wrong in encouraging people to play however they want with whatever character. If you want to turtle, you don't play a rushdown character, because they won't have the tools to make that strategy successful. Play characters that let you do what you want. Fighting your character's design while fighting your opponent is not something you want to be doing.

While I agree with you to a certain degree, I don't think it has to be that cut and dry.

LK talked about it in one of his videos about some of the Japanese Hakumens. Hakumen by design is a defensive character and his tools are pretty much meant to be used as such. Yet LK even said a good number of Hakumen players were just going in and rushing down which goes against his design and "intended gameplay" I'll say.

I think Lambda and Rachel are other examples, they are zoning characters but they have tools that would allow them to play a much more rushdown style, even if that goes against their design. In CT this was even more pronounced. Is it more effective to play a defensive character defensively? Of course, but it doesn't have to always be that way, which is why player's own styles are important.

Outside of talking about different styles of play, there are times when just doing something out of the ordinary can help you in a match. And I'm not talking about going for a different mix-up cause the opponent is blocking the other stuff, because that's something that they could easily expect you to change to as well.

I do think there should be at least a small percentage of "random" in a player's gameplay, but it's definitely not necessary to win. Like i said in the other post, from what I've seen Minami's Bang does ONLY WHAT'S NECESSARY to win, Satoshi's Bang in CS1 was the same way. Yet you watch Dora's matches or even Ryota's matches in the examples given, and they do some stuff that seems out of the ordinary and still manage to win. Both ways to play are fine.

[Sophisticat]

@Dusk: Zeth's got it right.

The point is that there is no "right" way to play. You might call my view restricted, but actually pulling it off in a live match is another thing. When both players know the game like the back of their hands, it's time for some out-of-the-box thinking. So to push either's abilities to the limit, well, that takes creativity!

Anyway, what really matters is that no matter your style or your character, your decisions and the ability to execute them is what will determine the match.

Btw, creativity does not have to occur within the match itself; it can take the form of a plan to beat your opponent at his game. For example, I recall a guy in SFIV who got really high in the EVO brackets a year or two back, and that was with lowly Sakura. He did it because his style was very unorthodox. Pretty much everyone on SRK was impressed as I recall.

[Akira-Shiro]

Lol i agree with you personaly,, however if i do recall when LK went to Japan he lost to a "Mashy Ragna" because the japanese know the secret to blazblue. people laugh at me, hate me, call me a "Scrubby masher" but only a small amount can beat me. In truth you do not need to block to win in a fighting game. If you think a person is going to grab jump, if you think they will OH you grab, if you think they will try to trap you mash backdash. You are 100% correct when it comes to the whole unorthodox style of play because it truly does work. I for one play everyone in BB,, i know for a fact that Jin can hop over low attacks with 6B. An people wonders what goes on threw my head, but i will 6B sometimes on wake up if im Jin. If you think about it,, it will beat 2 out of the 3 options the opponent has when i am waking up. If they are baiting a Dp i get 6B into free pressure, if they do a low you get 6B on a crouching opponent (free 4k), but if they use a meaty normal im hit.

Please be in mind you just woke up,, keep in mind they are expecting you to block. So not only are they thrown off by you doing a wake up normal, the chances of you hitconfirming into anything over 2k without 50heat are very slim depending on which character you are fighting. An it all depends on who im fighting an with that i calculate the risk vs reward factor. If i do get hit out of Jins 6B im going to take X-amount of damage,, however on the other hand if they try to Grab/attack low/2a/or block i get either 4k 0heat, or free pressure. If they dont hit me im getting on of the two, so its a risk i take.

Then sure if you get hit you look kinda free but hell, it was a 66% chance of you hitting. You just so happen to not be that lucky. If the chances of me hitting are higher then the chances of me getting hit, along with the damage difference from getting hit and hitting is over 2k im taking the risk. IE:If i wake up 6B i could take about 2-3k but if i hit them im doing 4-5k thats a 2k difference.. thats more then enought to get me hit. An its the most logical thing to do an sure ill tell you the secret to BB so you can fight on the same level as the Japs BLOCKING DOES NOT WIN GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! people in america stay trying to do things that are out of your ability. If you know you cannot block,, STOP TRYING. If you know your blocking isnt that good why try =/ you will only get yourself killed. Sure you will look free if they are doing fram traps,, so if your going to mash at least be smart about it. If you know you cant tech grabs and you think they are going to grab do Ja/Jb/jc/jd do something other then trying to break that grab,, BEACAUSE YOU WILL GET GRABBED. An the enemy will get hit the first time they try to OH you, or when they try to grab you. An they will stop trying if you keep mashing,, why? Because they are not going to try and do sumthing they cannot, if someone is mashing in your blockstrings and you know it. You will not do OH's anymore, so i guess thats missions accomplished. An just remember if they call you a mashy free as nig, just let them know who won the fight.

Now you all know the truth behind Akira-Shiro's play style lol call me free if you want to,, but if you catch me twice i still got about 2-3k Hp left... if i catch you twice lol thats GG's try again next round

Edited December 18, 2011 by Akira-Shiro

[severin]

In truth you do not need to block to win in a fighting game.

#AmericanBB

[Dusk Thanatos]

Oh god, someone needs to sig that shit

[Guymam]

The post that will go down in scrubquotes history

[lxMetalSonicxl]

Mashing is so pro.

[Akira-Shiro]

Just so you know,, im not saying i dont block.. but you dont need to block. Also i mean if yall think yall can beat me by all means please just send me an inv. Then i can buss yo ass put it on youtube and go on about my day ^-^

Severin, thantos, & smokend. yall got Ps3's

[Lord Knight]

No, go to a tournament and try to win, that will mean infinitely more than winning on PSN.

[Akira-Shiro]

Good LK your here,, can i asked why you lost to that random ragna.. also i have been to a tornament the first one i ever went to i got second,, this was back in CS1. Then is was ECT an i got 4th,, i already kno im not better then you, skd, & Zidane. But these 3 nigs, i dont believe would beat me.. i dont think they can beat all my characters.. only a good 5ppl can do that,, You, SKD, Lostsoul, Isu... and i think thats it to be honest.. well thats all the people i know of anyway. An by beat i mean consistently not it went to the final round (Best 3out of 5) im talking bout i just got bodied

[CakeWasBannedd]

akira just

stop while you're ahead man, stop being dumb

[Dorian]

akira just

stop while you're ahead man, stop being dumb

shh no I'm having fun watching :'(

[Yaya]

This is my favourite thread.

[dioxideUniversa]

Good LK your here,, can i asked why you lost to that random ragna.. also i have been to a tornament the first one i ever went to i got second,, this was back in CS1. Then is was ECT an i got 4th,, i already kno im not better then you, skd, & Zidane. But these 3 nigs, i dont believe would beat me.. i dont think they can beat all my characters.. only a good 5ppl can do that,, You, SKD, Lostsoul, Isu... and i think thats it to be honest.. well thats all the people i know of anyway. An by beat i mean consistently not it went to the final round (Best 3out of 5) im talking bout i just got bodied

Please quit shitting up Sophisticat's thread. Don't get all defensive when people think you're terribad for saying something genuinely ignorant like "blocking isn't important."

[Chaoschao222]

Akira-shiro's posts just... all of my princegif.

[Star-Demon]

This one time I blocked and I beat someone.

True story.