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General Heinz

Smasher turned...Blazer?

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Well banning items is sort of standard nowadays in tourney play, but we definitely don't just play on FD. Neutral stages are FD, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island, Dream Land 64, and Battlefield, then there are some counterpick stages. I kinda fucking hate FD too though.

And yeah, I guess the games aren't similar at all, but I did in fact pick up BlazBlue to see if it could rival Melee in terms of speed. I don't know what game could ever really beat Melee in that area, but BB is still pretty fast. Brawl, however, will always be pretty sluggish for me, haha.

Blazblue is the wrong fighter if you are aiming for speed. However, because of BB's slow speed, reaction time on defense is always relevant. If you like that, play Blazblue.

If you want to see shit blow up quick, and people flying faster than the speed of light, you should play Marvel.

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Well, I always thought BB had a similar teching system to Melee. Same with the barrier blocking and airdashes and double jumps.

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Well, I always thought BB had a similar teching system to Melee. Same with the barrier blocking and airdashes and double jumps.

Yeah, but platforming, direction and a complete absence of any kind of high/low shenanigans make it totally different. To this day I fail to understand why anyone would play smash seriously. If you honestly have to disable most of the game's content for tournament rules and then forbid certain tricks altogether, then it's clearly not made for it. BB, along with most other 2 player fighters, have default rules which are the same as tournament rules, because that's the point.

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Yeah, but platforming, direction and a complete absence of any kind of high/low shenanigans make it totally different. To this day I fail to understand why anyone would play smash seriously. If you honestly have to disable most of the game's content for tournament rules and then forbid certain tricks altogether, then it's clearly not made for it. BB, along with most other 2 player fighters, have default rules which are the same as tournament rules, because that's the point.

That's too nearsighted. Surely creating the correct boundaries is important for every good sport? And if the creators made a game with the potential to be something fantastic, but also gave options for it to be much more casual, you would remove those random factors that are limiting the game.

Think about sports. There are limitations on what you can use in those sports, because it makes for a more complete, rounded game. The specifications are so that it can be a complete game.

Melee wouldn't be so good if there was a bunch of random spawning items in tournament matches, because it removes an amount of the legitimacy. Right place right time can win you the match, by blind luck. These limitations on the rules is vital to the game to ensure highest skill is the winner.

EDIT: Also, the amount of limitations necessary to make BRAWL a legitimate game is over the top, because it was designed badly. So if you only meant Brawl, I agree.

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^ Agreed. And to an extent the explosion of Melee's competitive scene was a fluke. Advanced techniques like wavedashing (which has many functions depending on character, but for many characters it functions mostly like BB's backstep, except it can be done in both directions without initiating a dash at all) were actually a total accident but were left in the game by the developers even though they had noticed these "glitches."

And yeah, platforms and directions make the tech game different from that of BB, but techchasing is one of the best strategies against a lot of characters (one of Falcon's best pressure options against many of the high-tiers), and it's even further complicated by the fact that characters can tech off platforms to avoid a lot of combos. But you can techchase platform techs just the same, so that adds some to the depth of the gameplay.

I think what frustrates people about smash who are more accustomed to traditional fighters like BB is that there are actually very few "guaranteed" combos. There come into play a lot of variables like weight, falling speed, percent, and all of those variables impact spacing and combos considerably. But I guess that's what I like about smash--the ability to improvise a combo on the fly, especially one that your opponent maybe could have avoided, but that you mindgamed him into eating anyway >:D Good shit.

But yeah, Brawl was a disaster. I think it's reminded a lot of people what was good about Melee because they literally did a complete 180 on a lot of the tried and true techniques and strategies available in the past games. I understand what you mean, Manta, about how banning things from the game to make it more competitive seems like it should indicate that the game wasn't intended to be very competitive in the first place, but while in Melee there were only bans on stages (there actually aren't any banned techniques, contrary to popular belief, except ones that can freeze the game, and those are way too complicated to execute anyway), Brawl was so unbalanced as to warrant the banning of a character (Metaknight, if you guys didn't hear the anguished screams of the Brawl trolls reverberating through the interwebs the day he got the axe). But then again, it's not like that's never happened in any other fighting game before, so technically the necessity to ban anything shouldn't automatically indicate that a game is uncompetitive (buttt Brawl kinda is >.<).

EDIT: Also, random sidenote, but I don't think it's entirely impossible to say that Melee has "high/low shenanigans." If by that you mean having to block high and low attacks differently, then Melee sort of has its own version of that. Depending on how much of your shield has been drained it may not cover your whole character when activated, so especially when under pressure, it's often advantageous to angle the shield up or down to avoid getting stabbed through it (C. Falcon notably gets raped by low attacks like Peach's down smash because his shield doesn't cover his feet very well).

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Well banning items is sort of standard nowadays in tourney play, but we definitely don't just play on FD. Neutral stages are FD, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Island, Dream Land 64, and Battlefield, then there are some counterpick stages. I kinda fucking hate FD too though.

And yeah, I guess the games aren't similar at all, but I did in fact pick up BlazBlue to see if it could rival Melee in terms of speed. I don't know what game could ever really beat Melee in that area, but BB is still pretty fast. Brawl, however,

will always be pretty sluggish for me, haha.

So other stages are fair? Now you've convinced me to tell some fools I know that there's more than 1 stage in the game. I wouldn't mind never having items again as long as it meant never seeing Final Destination again.

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Battlefield and FD are at least completely "fair" in most people's minds, because they don't contain any random elements. Most other stages have at least some random elements, but the neutral stage list seeks to select stages that have a minimum of these I guess. Dream Land has the occasional wind, which can prevent recovery (or at least force a stock-winning edgehog), Yoshi's Island has that cloud that you can land on sometimes which can save you even if you were otherwise dead as fuck, and the platforms on Fountain move up and down slowly which fucks with a lot of characters' short hops (CF included). But all of these have limiting factors I guess, which is what makes them still "neutral"--the wind only comes up sometimes and can only kill you if you let yourself off the stage, the cloud is pretty small and thus hard to land on anyway, and the platforms on Fountain...well, I fucking hate those, but that's why I always ban Fountain against my opponent (tourney sets allow the winner of the first match of a best of three set to ban one stage he doesn't want his opponent to counterpick).

Pokemon Stadium is arguably the most random of the still tourney-legal stages, since it has transformations that change the whole stage, but the starting form of the stage is considered very fair, and since the transformations suck for basically everyone (though they're thought to favor Fox and Falco), I guess it's considered your fault if you let yourself get killed during a particularly shitty one.

Plus I think there are a lot of things that factor into what "fair" means. Characters with good up-throw chaingrabs on fastfallers (notably Peach) could be considered "broken" on FD since they can basically chainthrow their opponent across the stage until kill percent because there's no platforms above to tech on. On the flipside, Yoshi's Island is considered a really good Marth stage BECAUSE of the fact that there are platforms and because of the fact that their height complements the sweetspot on his sword nicely after he up-throws his opponent up there.

That's why there has to be more than just FD.

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I was reading the brawl ruleset when I made my post btw, the very idea of banning, and indeed policing, techniques from play goes completely against my ethos of "Do anything within the game to win" . But to be honest, everything I've seen of the tourney scene in smash still strikes me of Nintendo fanboys trying to make a legitimate game out of something they want to, rather than picking a game because it was designed for it from the ground up. I can accept that Melee might have been good through accident, just as MvC2 was.

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Hello, Im new here.

decided to post in this thread as i was also a smasher turned into a fighter :P

been playing some smash bros brawl/melee in the UK scene for about a year now and decided to try other fighters. Blazblue instantly caught my attention and I've now been playing CS2 for a while now.

this seemed to be the best place to post so i am sorry if i am hijacking slightly

probably stopping playing smash for this game ;P

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I was reading the brawl ruleset when I made my post btw, the very idea of banning, and indeed policing, techniques from play goes completely against my ethos of "Do anything within the game to win" . But to be honest, everything I've seen of the tourney scene in smash still strikes me of Nintendo fanboys trying to make a legitimate game out of something they want to, rather than picking a game because it was designed for it from the ground up. I can accept that Melee might have been good through accident, just as MvC2 was.

Yeah, the tourney ruleset for Brawl has a lot more restrictions out of necessity for taking care of Metaknight, but now that he's banned (starting January 9th I guess) those won't be necessary. In general though Brawl is just sort of a shitty competitive game compared to Melee, even if you don't consider the fact that they had to ban certain techniques. It's just not as fast-paced and I feel as though there aren't as many options.

And you could say that fanboys have tried to make something out of Melee that it wasn't designed for, but it's ten years old this year, and after all that time I know so much has been discovered about the game that makes you realize how competitive (and truly balanced) it really is, even if it wasn't intentionally designed to be that way.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ayp7DdTZwc

Even if you can say it wasn't designed to be competitive you can still see that it takes skill and the more skilled player wins (i.e. there was no gay shit that randomly screwed Darkrain over).

But I guess I'm here to learn how to play BB, not promote smash ^__^;;

Hello, Im new here.

decided to post in this thread as i was also a smasher turned into a fighter :P

been playing some smash bros brawl/melee in the UK scene for about a year now and decided to try other fighters. Blazblue instantly caught my attention and I've now been playing CS2 for a while now.

this seemed to be the best place to post so i am sorry if i am hijacking slightly

probably stopping playing smash for this game ;P

No worries. I'm new myself. Welcome dude. Maybe once I get back to school where I left BB we can do some netplay to practice, scrub on scrub.

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I know PewPewU was playing CT online for a bit and had a decent Rachel (only saw him for a bit though). he talked about melee, but it was only like a year ago that I realized he was actually an upper echelon player or whatever.

I don't know what sort of skill transfer there is between the games, but I have to imagine melee players just don't even remotely worry about the movement aspect of the game. you have to be so fluid, Blazblue has got to feel almost sort of limiting in that respect.

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Melee had depth to it that was most definitely planned by the creators. With the exception probably of wavedash

Brawl DELIBERATELY had all depth removed. This is obvious to anyone who looks at the system mechanics of the game.

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it was removed intentionally due to sakurai's feelings on the "frustration" at not being good at a fighter

What I heard was that it was frustrations that the game was picked up by competitive players and wasn't another Mario Party casual fun time game. As a Melee player I can't stand Brawl and modern day Nintendo, but I am a huge Melee fan and it pisses me off when people hate on Smash without knowing what the games are about, at least Melee.

I don't know what sort of skill transfer there is between the games, but I have to imagine melee players just don't even remotely worry about the movement aspect of the game. you have to be so fluid, Blazblue has got to feel almost sort of limiting in that respect.

It's of course a completely different set of rules, the similarities are there but overall they're very different. Melee has a very 'sandbox' oriented movement where you have complete control over your character with the joystick. Characters have different ways to jump and approach, there are a lot of frame specific movements you have to make and you have to learn all of the technical aspects like L-cancels, wavedash, shield pressure, ledge cancels, jump cancels, etc. Combos mostly involve knowing where your opponent is going to go and trying to read their DI (directional influence aka which way you're holding the stick) and getting out of combos means having to change your DI strategies often.

I've always felt like more traditional fighters are a lot slower and much less movement based, but in my opinion the movement in BlazBlue and Guilty Gear is still versatile and "free" feeling, it just takes a little longer to get used to. Melee will always be one of my favorite games, and more people should give it a shot. It's more technical than you would expect, but easy enough to learn.

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^ That.

The advanced techniques of Melee should actually seem pretty familiar to most players of fighting games (or at least should make sense from a fighting-game perspective). It's all about reducing lag between attacks (thus L-cancelling and ledge cancelling) and keeping your opponent in hitstun to continue comboing (DI complicates this greatly, but there's a lot of depth to the DI system, so it's a good thing).

Also I feel like BB confuses me sometimes because I can't only change my facing upon a cross-up. But I guess virtually all fighters are like that minus smash.

So yeah...fuck yeah, smash.

Who do you main, Shazam?

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For crossups you just watch for the air dash, if they dash over you, block in the opposite direction. Smash is very standalone in the blocking, or shield, aspect. You really have to get used to blocking low and blocking overheads now that you're playing a "real" fighter. Welcome to BB, hope you enjoy! It's really a great game, definitely my favorite modern fighter. There's a ton of depth to BB, the only downside is that it's so obscure and unknown to most people. You might be used to that though, there aren't a lot of Melee players nowadays.

I mostly play Falco, but i'm not a known player or anything. I'm pretty good with Marth and Ganon too. Melee will always be one of my favorites.

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Yeah, Melee players are sort of a dying breed. I think what still attracts me to it even now though is just how much fucking depth is still there ten years later. The metagame continues to evolve.

I'm not a well-known player either, but I hope to someday do well at a Melee tourney. And Falco's a good main to have of course. What part of Cali are you from? I'm sure there are lots of smash events still going on at least fairly close to you if you ever wanted to try going to one. West coast still has a lot of active players I think. It's the midwest scene that's really dying @__@

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It's a really fun game. It is pretty crazy how the metagame is still evolving 10 years later. I have been keeping an eye on smashboards trying to find an event to go to, I know there are a couple of people who still play competitively in SoCal. My schedule keeps fucking me over and I am not big on driving far so things are pretty spread out. I just need better tech skill and more experience fighting strong players, I have a pretty good grasp of the game otherwise. Falco is awesome, and i'm the kind of guy that was hype about him being playable in the first place before the game even came out, so yeah definitely. That fucking dair, man.

There's always the route of trying to recruit new players. I mean it's kind of hard but if you can get a couple of friends interested then who knows where it'll take you. At least you've got a pretty decent BB scene out there it seems. As a Falcon main you definitely need to spend some time with Bang, you'll start to like where it goes soon enough. Bang is extremely versatile with limitless rushdown potential, and his name is practically Falcon Punch.

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I was reading the brawl ruleset when I made my post btw, the very idea of banning, and indeed policing, techniques from play goes completely against my ethos of "Do anything within the game to win" . But to be honest, everything I've seen of the tourney scene in smash still strikes me of Nintendo fanboys trying to make a legitimate game out of something they want to, rather than picking a game because it was designed for it from the ground up. I can accept that Melee might have been good through accident, just as MvC2 was.

That's odd. When you look at the top players of Brawl, you'll notice that a lot of them don't even own wii's. Ha!

Smash players play smash because it's fun as hell and the community is the hypest by far.

Melee had depth to it that was most definitely planned by the creators. With the exception probably of wavedash

Brawl DELIBERATELY had all depth removed. This is obvious to anyone who looks at the system mechanics of the game.

How so?

Edit: I can see how since L-Canceling was removed, and buffering was added, you can say they removed a lot of the technical skill involved, but that really isn't true. Playing frame perfect is a very important part of smash.

It's really more in-depth than people give it credit for. So much so, that when people coming into the game look at it all they see is "Broken", when little do they know EVERYTHING in the game can be punished at top level play.

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How so?

Edit: I can see how since L-Canceling was removed, and buffering was added, you can say they removed a lot of the technical skill involved, but that really isn't true. Playing frame perfect is a very important part of smash.

It's really more in-depth than people give it credit for. So much so, that when people coming into the game look at it all they see is "Broken", when little do they know EVERYTHING in the game can be punished at top level play.

I think that's usually the main gripe people have though. It might not be a perfect argument on its own, but in removing the technical skill that's required to do things with such precision in Melee, people feel like if having more "skill" isn't what counts to win, it's harder to call it competitive. Coming after a game with such competitive potential as Melee, I can definitely understand that. I suppose you could say in doing so it emphasizes the mental aspect more, which is what a lot of people love most about fighting games anyway, and people have tried to argue that by saying it forces you to rely on spacing tactics more, but then that leads people to question what separates "spacing" from just plain camping. I was interested when I found out BB has negative penalty built into the game itself on purpose to discourage that type of avoidant play, and Melee I think was just built naturally in a way that prevented that (or maybe people just felt like they could kick ass harder so they approached--though some have argued that even in a game like Melee the most highly rewarded strategy can be not to approach sometimes). Combine that with the fact that for whatever reason there seems to be a poverty of good KO moves (a sweetspotted knee--if you can land it--doesn't kill until like 160% on FD from across the stage, I swear), matches just seem a lot less...concise.

Also there's almost no way to argue that prat-falling wasn't a deliberate attempt to make the game less competitive. That's the part that's just downright frustrating for me. Sure there are advanced techniques that improve play greatly that are Brawl-specific, so Brawl certainly has its own toolkit of tricks, but I think people just feel Melee's toolkit was more effective at its own game.

Then again, as always--to each his own. Only reason I'm picking fights about a completely unrelated series is cuz I can't play BB until next week XD

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The bar was set so high with Melee but after Brawl came out the bar just dropped. Now the true smashers are stuck with Melee, or even SSB64 for the bold. Some of the Brawl fanhacks seemed interesting but I don't think anything will ever truly compare to what SSB:M is.

Nintendo deliberately tried to take the competitive aspect out of the series but it failed, the tourney scene is huge while the gameplay is obviously unfit for a tourney setting. SSBB is probably as popular as SF now, because low-tier fighting games are popular in America... if anyone would call Brawl a fighter that is... who knows, maybe things will pick up now that MK is banned, but I'm still not interested because of the moon gravity and overall dumbed-down slow feeling I get when playing or watching Brawl. SSB:M will always be great, fast paced fun. If only Nintendo could realize that most people who buy games aren't children - they forgot about all of the fans who already grew up, and solely focus on the youth market. So much untapped potential, damn it.

On another note, I hate when people compare BlazBlue to Brawl. Seriously, Brawl is a complete trainwreck. I can understand thinking that BB is not a worthy sequel to GG, but it's still a damn good game with a lot of depth. I know the characters aren't as cool, and the combos aren't as piss hard, but there is definitely a character for everyone and good times to be had. Except for Tager.

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I think that's usually the main gripe people have though. It might not be a perfect argument on its own, but in removing the technical skill that's required to do things with such precision in Melee, people feel like if having more "skill" isn't what counts to win, it's harder to call it competitive. Coming after a game with such competitive potential as Melee, I can definitely understand that. I suppose you could say in doing so it emphasizes the mental aspect more, which is what a lot of people love most about fighting games anyway, and people have tried to argue that by saying it forces you to rely on spacing tactics more, but then that leads people to question what separates "spacing" from just plain camping. I was interested when I found out BB has negative penalty built into the game itself on purpose to discourage that type of avoidant play, and Melee I think was just built naturally in a way that prevented that (or maybe people just felt like they could kick ass harder so they approached--though some have argued that even in a game like Melee the most highly rewarded strategy can be not to approach sometimes). Combine that with the fact that for whatever reason there seems to be a poverty of good KO moves (a sweetspotted knee--if you can land it--doesn't kill until like 160% on FD from across the stage, I swear), matches just seem a lot less...concise.

Also there's almost no way to argue that prat-falling wasn't a deliberate attempt to make the game less competitive. That's the part that's just downright frustrating for me. Sure there are advanced techniques that improve play greatly that are Brawl-specific, so Brawl certainly has its own toolkit of tricks, but I think people just feel Melee's toolkit was more effective at its own game.

Then again, as always--to each his own. Only reason I'm picking fights about a completely unrelated series is cuz I can't play BB until next week XD

I agree with this, actually. It's just I don't see why people shit on a game they don't know about. A lot of peoples ideas of what smash is, are just blatantly wrong. Lol. They say it's competitive value is poor because of X reason, when they're completely wrong.

The bar was set so high with Melee but after Brawl came out the bar just dropped. Now the true smashers are stuck with Melee, or even SSB64 for the bold. Some of the Brawl fanhacks seemed interesting but I don't think anything will ever truly compare to what SSB:M is.

Nintendo deliberately tried to take the competitive aspect out of the series but it failed, the tourney scene is huge while the gameplay is obviously unfit for a tourney setting. SSBB is probably as popular as SF now, because low-tier fighting games are popular in America... if anyone would call Brawl a fighter that is... who knows, maybe things will pick up now that MK is banned, but I'm still not interested because of the moon gravity and overall dumbed-down slow feeling I get when playing or watching Brawl. SSB:M will always be great, fast paced fun. If only Nintendo could realize that most people who buy games aren't children - they forgot about all of the fans who already grew up, and solely focus on the youth market. So much untapped potential, damn it.

On another note, I hate when people compare BlazBlue to Brawl. Seriously, Brawl is a complete trainwreck. I can understand thinking that BB is not a worthy sequel to GG, but it's still a damn good game with a lot of depth. I know the characters aren't as cool, and the combos aren't as piss hard, but there is definitely a character for everyone and good times to be had. Except for Tager.

You did a poor job of explaining why Brawl isn't good competitively. Mostly what I see here is opinion. Please don't say brawl is a poor game if you don't have any legitimate reasons. One thing brawl players love is when their community expands. We really don't need people going around spreading lies about the competitive value of our game. I'm sure you feel the same about Blazblue. I really dislike when street fighter players say Blazblue is a bad game, then they continue to say that they're bad when they lose because they put no time into it.

Also I wish the brawl scene was as big as the SF scene. Maybe I'd actually have a ride to large-scale tournaments.

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The bar was set so high with Melee but after Brawl came out the bar just dropped. Now the true smashers are stuck with Melee, or even SSB64 for the bold. Some of the Brawl fanhacks seemed interesting but I don't think anything will ever truly compare to what SSB:M is.

Nintendo deliberately tried to take the competitive aspect out of the series but it failed, the tourney scene is huge while the gameplay is obviously unfit for a tourney setting. SSBB is probably as popular as SF now, because low-tier fighting games are popular in America... if anyone would call Brawl a fighter that is... who knows, maybe things will pick up now that MK is banned, but I'm still not interested because of the moon gravity and overall dumbed-down slow feeling I get when playing or watching Brawl. SSB:M will always be great, fast paced fun. If only Nintendo could realize that most people who buy games aren't children - they forgot about all of the fans who already grew up, and solely focus on the youth market. So much untapped potential, damn it.

On another note, I hate when people compare BlazBlue to Brawl. Seriously, Brawl is a complete trainwreck. I can understand thinking that BB is not a worthy sequel to GG, but it's still a damn good game with a lot of depth. I know the characters aren't as cool, and the combos aren't as piss hard, but there is definitely a character for everyone and good times to be had. Except for Tager.

Was with you until the last three words. I chose Tager because he was the most fun.

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Come on Manta, you know I was kidding. Tager players still have tons of fun, I just sometimes get the feeling that there's a permanent frustration that comes along with maining him. No disrespect at all towards the Tager mains, and I hope you enjoy what CSE does to your character.

My post comparing Melee and Brawl is definitely opinion, just stated as fact. My main reason for not liking Brawl is that it's not another Melee, and anyone who has seen the gameplay of both games can see "why". I can't stand this game that's supposed to still be Smash - the first 'fighter' I ever cared about and have had a ton of fun with - but I can't do simple things like a wavedash or an L-cancel. Lack of hit stun = lack of combos. Tripping, jesus, what the hell Nintendo?. The air dodge system is bad, the character redesigns are bad (Falco and Ganon, gross... not to mention poor Captain Falcon,) and just plain and simply MK. Even Snake's presence doesn't make up for what Brawl did to the SSB series, and as far as i'm concerned the move that Nintendo made with that game might as well have put a stake in the heart of Melee and a very large portion of Melee fans.

That said, as much as me and all the other tech savvy Meleefags can piss on it and hate life, it doesn't mean that Brawl can't be enjoyed. You could say guys like me are living in the past and maybe we're upset for no reason but you have to look at it from our perspective too, I was hype for the release of Brawl for years, I finally got a Wii and now have no reason to play it all the time. There's also the fact that playing Brawl can mess up your habits in Melee. So yeah, not saying that you can't have fun with your game Vibe, just saying that I can't. As much as I love SSB and SSBM I just want to pull my hair out whenever I see Brawl.

Your scene might not be SF sized, but I know you're double to triple the amount of active Melee players, so at least be glad that a lot of people are still interested in Brawl. I feel your pain though, amazing games with small scenes are very depressing. Most BB tourneys or events are a cool hour drive away from me.

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