[CSE] Jin vs Tsubaki

[Moy_X7]

The Neutral Game

At the start of the match, Tsubaki has the option to do 22A as her opening poke. 22A will beat your 5C and net her a decent combo on CH, you also won't make it in time for a dashing 5A, 2A, 5B and even if you do, a trade will be in her favor. You'll either have to jump over it and punish it if you read it or just hold back and see what she does next. If you block it, then you can try and start some pressure since it's -9 on block.

Pretty much the only normal that will aggravate you during neutral is her 5B. Her 5B has pretty good range and a fast start-up. She will probably also try a random 3C from time to time if she has the meter to RC it. If she spaces is correctly, then that move is not punishable but it still puts her at a disadvantage. The one thing to be aware of is that you should be careful with your j.Cs as her 3C will low profile under it and net her a FC combo if she times it properly.

Now here's when things get tricky. Most Tsubakis will run away and start charging her Drive meter. In the air, she can cancel her charge stance into her dives and into her j.236X series. Here are your options in order to intercept her:

1. Dash > super jump > throw: If Tsubaki is getting greedy with her j.D charge, you can throw her out of it. Throws have a retarded ass hit-box in this game, so it works wonders to catch her out of her charge.
   
2. Max range j.C: it works just as how you imagine it would.
   
3. Max range DP A/B: Normally, you'll want to dash and space yourself just right so that you can make use of DP A/B's maximum reach. If she dives, she'll get tagged by either of the DPs.
   
4. TK j.236C: This is the safest option. If she keeps charging, she'll eventually have to let go, block it and you can use that chance to get in. If she tries to be clever and dodge the ice blade with a dive, then you can read that and intercept her with DP B.
   
5. Block the dive: If you block the dive, then you can punish it with 66 5B(1)/5C CH.
   

Aside from that, if she did super jump > j.D then she'll have an air option left but DP A works pretty well when spaced correctly and will usually tag her out of an air dash and force her to Barrier block if she decides to jump again.

On the ground, she can stop charging and try to intercept you with her 5B, 22A, or the 214X series. 214X series are head and body invulnerable starting on frame 8-10 and they have a certain amount of I-frames depending on which version she used, so she can use it as pseudo anti-air/reversal. If you don't want to deal with that, then you can just toss a B ice blade at her to stop her from charging.

Her truly annoying shit comes in the form of 236C/D (CHARGING STAR). Tsubakis who just don't give a fuck will use the 236C version, that thing is punishable outside of its maximum range with 5A/5B and on IB on its maximum range. Tsubakis who give half a fuck will use 236D. This one is only punishable on IB with 5A or 5B but your timing must be flawless This one will cross you up but if you have decent reactions then that shouldn't be much of a problem. She can always DP after getting her 236X series blocked, so be on the look out for that.

If she has Drive stocks, then she can cancel the 236X series into 214D or 22D on block so you need to be careful and mindful of her Drive meter or else you'll get frame trapped. Just do a lot of dash > Barrier to fish for 236C/D and don't forget to IB it, which is not that hard when it comes to these types of lunging moves. Your best bet is to just block after blocking 236X if she has Drive meter as both of her follow-up options are negative on block.

Her Offense

Tsubaki will be doing a lot of 5A and 2A for pressure. 5A hits crouching and 2A is neutral on block. She can cancel a lot of her normals into a Drive to reset pressure. Her pressure is relatively strong and she'll be fishing for frame traps. Be patient and look for an eventual gap in her pressure.

She can jump cancel 5B and 6C on block if she wants to reset pressure so use that opportunity to intercept her if you read her or use that chance to escape. It's worth nothing that she can use her j.B > B and j.C > C gatlings as fuzzy guards, so be careful when blocking these and try not to switch block until the second hit.

She can gatling the following normals into her overhead (6A): 5A, 2A, 5B/5BB, 2B. Be on the look out for the OH when she uses any of the aforementioned. I've actually had a handful of Tsubakis reset me with 6A; be on the look out for it when you're getting combo'd. Tsubaki is one hella gimmicky character and it can't be helped since her damage output sucks.

She can add some range to her throw by doing kara cancels, so be ready to tech at a range where her throw would normally not reach you.

Now, for the one move that you should truly fear: 22D

When held for 33 frames, 22D becomes an unblockable. Tsubaki can set up the unblockable in numerous ways... after a knockdown, during pressure, or as a reset from a combo. It is vital that you learn to react to this and DP D it. You can risk it and try to jump and push a button but smart Tsubakis will set it up so that if you try any of the aforementioned, you'll get tagged during the start-up. DP C can fail you because of it's shitty horizontal range. So really, your best best is to learn to react to it and DP D it.

Her Defense

Tsubaki has one of the best anti-airs in the form of 2C. It has godlike reach, the I-frames kick in starting on frame 7, and it has a 13 frame start-up. You'll have to be careful when approaching her from the air and you'll need to try to discourage her from abusing that move by using the various ice blades and well spaced j.Cs.

As mentioned before, she can use the 214X series as pseudo anti-airs. These move her forward depending on the version she uses so she can tag you out of j.C if you wanted to use it to beat 2C at max range.

Her DP A is kinda sucky, it has a low amount of I-frames and will usually trade with whatever you throw at her. Tsubakis can try and be clever by canceling any of the DPs into j.236D (the slow moving orb) on block but the way to beat that is by running directly below Tsubaki and doing 5C. If she does nothing after canceling the DP into j.236D, she'll be in counter hit state in the air and you can hit-confirm the 5C CH. In the other hand, if she tries to dive into the orb and you're in her blind spot, the 5C will tag her the moment she lands from the dive and she'll be in counter hit state for an easy 5C CH hit-confirm. If she cancels it directly into the dive, then you can punish the dive on block. If she doesn't cancel it into anything, then you can hit-confirm the 5C into Sekkajin. Bear in mind that you can only punish her DP D with 66 5A/B.

Aside from just baiting DP A with the traditional block, in the corner you can opt for the j.2C safe-jump after a DPC/214A knockdown. In a similar light, if you have the meter to RC, you can bait a wake-up DP with your own DP C. If they push a button or use a DP, they'll get tagged by the slow ass DP C. If they block, you just RC it and continue to pressure.

Frame Data: Advantageous, Disadvantageous, and Punishable Moves

Neutral/Advantageous Moves:

• 2A: Neutral
  
• 6B: +1
  
• j.236D + j.214D: Unknown but highly advantageous
  
  
  Disadvantageous Moves:
  
  
  • 3C: normally -13 but it has less disadvantage if used at its max distance.
    
  • 236A: normally -7 but it has less disadvantage if used at its max distance. Be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D or 214D
    
  • 236B/C: normally -13 but it has less disadvantage if used at its max distance. Be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D or 214D
    
  • 236D: -4, be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D or 214D
    
  • 214X Series: -7, be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D
    
  • 22A: -9
    
  • 22B/C: - 5
    
  • 22D: -7
    

  Punishable Moves:

  [*]3CC: -26, does not gatling or cancel into anything. Punish guaranteed.

  [*]6CC: -15, does not gatling or cancel into anything. Punish guaranteed (lol, who'd use this move?)

  [*]236A: Punish guaranteed on IB. Be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D or 214D.

  [*]236B/C: Punishable if not used at its max range. Punish guaranteed on IB. Be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D or 214D.

  [*]236D: Punishable on IB only. A perfectly timed 2A will beat both her 214D and 22D follow-ups on IB.

  [*]214X Series: Punishable on IB only. Be careful when she has Drive meter as she can cancel it into 22D.

  [*]DP X Series: All punishable by 66 5B

  [*]j.214X Series: Punishable by 66 5B(1)/5C (CH)

  Gimmicks and Resets

  22D is bad, 6A is bad, more to come!

  Match Summary

  5B and well spaced 3C will give you a bit of grief during neutral. 236C/D are not much of a threat on their own but if she has the Heat or Drive meter to cancel them, then that's when you need to be careful and know when and when not to push a button. It's a huge guessing game once she has the meter and she'll use that to her advantage to get in on you.

  22D is scary so you have to learn to react to it and DP it and expect it at any given point in time.

  Tsubaki is a pretty gimmicky character that thrives on your indecision to push buttons. Just know her options and the various ways to deal with them and you'll be fine, for the most part.

[Moy_X7]

You know what? Instead of doing a long ass write up as I've been doing in the past I'm just gonna go over her dangerous moves, her punishable moves, her overhead gatlings and other points of interest.

Edit: lol, ended up doing a long ass write up anyways.

[Airk]

Seems mostly good. A few points:

#1: You're completely right about about not pushing buttons against Tsubaki at round start, but if you're feeling gutsy, you might be able to B-DP her at round start. Should beat all her options except blocking or backdashing, I think.

#2: You listed 236D as "Unknown but advantageous when used from across the screen" which is most assuredly is not. It's -4, all the time, no questions asked.

#3: Air charging against Jin generally isn't a good idea, but a smart Tsubaki will reserve an air option while air charging - i.e. instead of double-jump > Charge, they'll do Super Jump > Charge, which means they have the option of letting go of charge and airdashing or jumping. Also note that she can't technically "cancel" air charge into anything, but air charge has no AIR recovery, only post-landing recovery, so she can let go of it and do j.C for example.

#4: I'd be careful with that "run in on her DP" thing, because I think it'll get stuffed into a gruesome counterhit if she cancels the DP into a j.214D instead of j.236D. (She can do either.) j.214D is a pretty ugly starter on CH, but doesn't lead to anything outside the corner without meter or charge. Just something to be aware of there.

#5: You probably don't want to hold the 2nd hit of the D-DP (not sure if this is ever a good idea against anyone though) because a good Tsubaki can 214D it on reaction and there'll be nothing you can do. If she doesn't have charge, you -might- be able to beat 214B if you release it at just the right time, but generally, just don't do this.

#6: She can cancel the 236X series into 214D - not just 236D. And I don't think there's enough time to 2A it unless they mess up the timing. Also, they can cancel into 22D if they prefer, which is gapless and will hit you if you let go of block to do... anything, I think, because you won't technically be out of blockstun so you won't be able to DP it. (Not sure about that last bit). So be a little more careful when she has charge. If you just hold back, you'll be at advantage after whatever she does, but she might do nothing and you'll miss your punish.

#7: Charged 22D beats Yukikaze, don't try.

#8: If she uses 236D in a combo, be on the lookout for a reset - since it allowed her to start her ground gatling strings over again with 5B, this is a prime opportunity for her to sneak in a 6A. Don't just autopilot high block though, because she has low hitting reset options available there too.

#9: 3C is only -13 at max range, so isn't really a guaranteed punish with spacing.

[eQualz]

#10: If she has meter to RC and is charging with 236D at you, be aware that she can cancel 236D before she crosses you up and go for a reset/combo.

[Moy_X7]

Seems mostly good. A few points:

#1: You're completely right about about not pushing buttons against Tsubaki at round start, but if you're feeling gutsy, you might be able to B-DP her at round start. Should beat all her options except blocking or backdashing, I think.

I personally would never start a round with DP B but that's just me lol. It can be crouched under and is heavily punishable on whiff and block.

#2: You listed 236D as "Unknown but advantageous when used from across the screen" which is most assuredly is not. It's -4, all the time, no questions asked.

Really? I remember reading that if she hits you during the last of the active frames, you'll get more frame advantage. That's really good to know if it's the latter. Also, does it apply to all of her 236X series or just the D version?

#4: I'd be careful with that "run in on her DP" thing, because I think it'll get stuffed into a gruesome counterhit if she cancels the DP into a j.214D instead of j.236D. (She can do either.) j.214D is a pretty ugly starter on CH, but doesn't lead to anything outside the corner without meter or charge. Just something to be aware of there.

I tried it on training mode and if she cancels it into the D dive right after DP'ing, we'll be on block-stun and won't be able to move at all. I'll see if she can tag you with it if she delays it.

#6: She can cancel the 236X series into 214D - not just 236D. And I don't think there's enough time to 2A it unless they mess up the timing. Also, they can cancel into 22D if they prefer, which is gapless and will hit you if you let go of block to do... anything, I think, because you won't technically be out of blockstun so you won't be able to DP it. (Not sure about that last bit). So be a little more careful when she has charge. If you just hold back, you'll be at advantage after whatever she does, but she might do nothing and you'll miss your punish.

Oooh, I forgot all about canceling 236X into 22D, good to know.

#9: 3C is only -13 at max range, so isn't really a guaranteed punish with spacing.

-13 at max range? That's plenty of time for a max range 5C punish lol.

Good stuff, thanks for your input.

[Airk]

I personally would never start a round with DP B but that's just me lol. It can be crouched under and is heavily punishable on whiff and block.

Fair enough! It was just a "Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if..." kind of thought.

Really? I remember reading that if she hits you during the last of the active frames, you'll get more frame advantage. That's really good to know if it's the latter. Also, does it apply to all of her 236X series or just the D version?

It's just the D version - it's because of the weird crossup. Basically, when the D version hits, it automatically goes into a 20 frame duration 'crossup' animation, which leaves her at -4 on block. It's kinda like if you had cancelled the move into a special 'crossup' move. That said, the frame data for this move is pretty screwed up, in that if it's actually correct, the move would be +4, not -4, but it's definitely negative - there's basically no reason not to 2A after blocking this move. The frame data from the mook is basically just wrong about either the amount of blockstun it has, or something. (It would make perfect sense if the move just had the level 3 attack 16 frames of blockstun instead of the listed special 24 frames. Which idly makes me wonder if ASW F-'d up. In fact, a lot of Tsubaki's frame data makes me think that, since she had a lot of special stuff in CS2 that made her moves not terrible on block, and it's all missing from Extend, which is why they suck.)

I tried it on training mode and if she cancels it into the D dive right after DP'ing, we'll be on block-stun and won't be able to move at all. I'll see if she can tag you with it if she delays it.

Interesting! Good to check!

-13 at max range? That's plenty of time for a max range 5C punish lol.

Whoops! I botched. That's -13 at MIN range. If it hits on the last active frame, it'll be like -3 or something. Still negative, but not like "just pick your favorite punish".

[Moy_X7]

Ah, so that's the deal with 236D. Good to know, I'll revise and update the thread with this info.

I thought as much with the 3C, I'll have to go back and update that as well. Forgot that you can make it safer if you use it at its max range.

Good shit, thanks again.

[Jyosua]

I personally would never start a round with DP B but that's just me lol. It can be crouched under and is heavily punishable on whiff and block.

True, but I hit people with that shit all the time. People like pressing buttons at match start, and the later invulnerability helps you snag a counterhit out of it quite easily.

Really? I remember reading that if she hits you during the last of the active frames, you'll get more frame advantage. That's really good to know if it's the latter. Also, does it apply to all of her 236X series or just the D version?

I'm fairly certain that you are correct about this, as I have heard this too. IIRC, TheGreatReptar mentioned this to me.

I tried it on training mode and if she cancels it into the D dive right after DP'ing, we'll be on block-stun and won't be able to move at all. I'll see if she can tag you with it if she delays it.

I generally give 0 fucks about Tsubaki’s DP, because a well-timed 6B can not only dodge her hitbox, but also hit her in return.

#3: Air charging against Jin generally isn't a good idea, but a smart Tsubaki will reserve an air option while air charging - i.e. instead of double-jump > Charge, they'll do Super Jump > Charge, which means they have the option of letting go of charge and airdashing or jumping. Also note that she can't technically "cancel" air charge into anything, but air charge has no AIR recovery, only post-landing recovery, so she can let go of it and do j.C for example.

Another note about this: most Tsubaki players like to cancel into a dive when they see you going for the air grab. Depending on the startup, you may or may not get fucked by this.

#5: You probably don't want to hold the 2nd hit of the D-DP (not sure if this is ever a good idea against anyone though) because a good Tsubaki can 214D it on reaction and there'll be nothing you can do. If she doesn't have charge, you -might- be able to beat 214B if you release it at just the right time, but generally, just don't do this.

Yeah this actually highly depends on spacing and who wins the RPS game. Whether or not to hold is debatable because the whole point of Jin’s followup is a guessing game of when to press/release buttons.

#7: Charged 22D beats Yukikaze, don't try.

However, DP D can beat this if the spacing is correct. A good Tsubaki will not allow this to happen though, so pay attention to your opponent’s attentiveness to spacing.

[Airk]

True, but I hit people with that shit all the time. People like pressing buttons at match start, and the later invulnerability helps you snag a counterhit out of it quite easily.

That was sortof my thought; The three things Tsubaki is most likely to do at round start are 22A, IAD back, or maybe jump forward. B DP beats the first and the last, and if it whiffs on a backwards IAD, no biggie.

I'm fairly certain that you are correct about this, as I have heard this too. IIRC, TheGreatReptar mentioned this to me.

D is special, because of the crossup. This is absolutely correct on A/B/C, which is why they were good in CS2.

Yeah this actually highly depends on spacing and who wins the RPS game. Whether or not to hold is debatable because the whole point of Jin’s followup is a guessing game of when to press/release buttons.

Not really in this case. If they have time to react, there's no way to beat 214D with the 2nd hit of the D DP, unless you release it before they finish their 214D input.

However, DP D can beat this if the spacing is correct. A good Tsubaki will not allow this to happen though, so pay attention to your opponent’s attentiveness to spacing.

[Errol]

Not sure why you would use 214D. Odds are pretty bad here for Jin, sometimes he'll tag you but he can eat a fat CH combo if he doesn't (most of the time). Jump or just attack. Shrug.

[Jyosua]

That was sortof my thought; The three things Tsubaki is most likely to do at round start are 22A, IAD back, or maybe jump forward. B DP beats the first and the last, and if it whiffs on a backwards IAD, no biggie.

Yeah, that's pretty much my thoughts too. It also works well as an opener on certain other characters too, but it depends on the opponent's habits.

D is special, because of the crossup. This is absolutely correct on A/B/C, which is why they were good in CS2.

Ah, those must've been what he was talking about.

Not really in this case. If they have time to react, there's no way to beat 214D with the 2nd hit of the D DP, unless you release it before they finish their 214D input.

The release is 10 frames. If you release immediately, Tsubaki will definitely get hit by the followup. That should theoretically condition the opponent (Tsubaki) into thinking of other options, which then opens up the possibility to hold it longer. Isn't 214D a 22 frame startup?

[Airk]

The release is 10 frames. If you release immediately, Tsubaki will definitely get hit by the followup. That should theoretically condition the opponent (Tsubaki) into thinking of other options, which then opens up the possibility to hold it longer. Isn't 214D a 22 frame startup?

Yeah, but it becomes invulnerable to Head/Body attacks (Like Hirensou, aka D DP) on frame 10, which is why it gets a little tricky.

[Errol]

invuln on frame 10 is bad. that's more vulnerable than just jumping. Or you could jab or 5c and hit jin before 214D would give invulnerability. I see no reason to do this. This situation is the same as it is for most characters. Except in some cases maybe you'd want to DP, an option not all chars have.

[Moy_X7]

Although I don't play the character, I agree with Errol in theory. Sure the 214D I-frames kick in on frame 10 but that means that your timing has to be flawless. If you fail to time it correctly, you'll eat damage and you'll have wasted a Drive stock. Using a Drive stock to punish when you could just jump and punish for free and for added safety seems like a bad idea to me.

[Airk]

I tend to disagree - partly because most of the time you're not going to be in range for anything quicker (Unless he did it at point blank range, the first hit will push you back outside of 5A/5C range) without a dash up, all Jin needs to do is let go of the button when he sees you start to move, whereas if he does that against 214D, he loses.

It's less that it's "fast" (it's not) but because it plays on the way people react - more often than not, Jin is going to hold the DP until he sees you twitch, and then let it go, but under these circumstances, doing that is auto-lose for him. There's not much you can do midscreen with one charge that'll get you much more than the 214D starter anyway, unless you pull out some Install Super shenanigans.

[Jyosua]

I tend to disagree - partly because most of the time you're not going to be in range for anything quicker (Unless he did it at point blank range, the first hit will push you back outside of 5A/5C range) without a dash up, all Jin needs to do is let go of the button when he sees you start to move, whereas if he does that against 214D, he loses.

It's less that it's "fast" (it's not) but because it plays on the way people react - more often than not, Jin is going to hold the DP until he sees you twitch, and then let it go, but under these circumstances, doing that is auto-lose for him. There's not much you can do midscreen with one charge that'll get you much more than the 214D starter anyway, unless you pull out some Install Super shenanigans.

Waiting until the opponent moves to let go will always lose you the RPS game, as you've already ensured their move will come out first due to the 10 frames it takes for the followup to hit. You're supposed to yomi your opponent's button timing.

Tsubaki's best option is to Jump. microdashing for a poke or jab on Jin isn't all that safe either. Jump only has a startup of 4, so even if the Jin doesn't charge at all, worst case scenario is you barrier block in the air, but even then you should theoretically dodge it assuming everything is timed perfectly.

[Airk]

Waiting until the opponent moves to let go will always lose you the RPS game, as you've already ensured their move will come out first due to the 10 frames it takes for the followup to hit. You're supposed to yomi your opponent's button timing.

Tsubaki's best option is to Jump. microdashing for a poke or jab on Jin isn't all that safe either. Jump only has a startup of 4, so even if the Jin doesn't charge at all, worst case scenario is you barrier block in the air, but even then you should theoretically dodge it assuming everything is timed perfectly.

Fair enough! I'll remember that for the future!