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Moy_X7

[CSE] Jin vs Hakumen

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The Neutral Game

At the start of the match, Hakumen has a few common options:

4C: You can use your own 5C to beat it

3C: This one beats your 5C but it will whiff if you don't push any buttons

214A: This one shrinks his hurt-box, so your 5C will whiff and you'll eat a CH into a small combo. It punishes backdashes if you start out the match with those and it's +1 on block.

623A: This one has head and body invulnerability starting on frame 5 and ending on frame 14. If timed correctly, it will go through most of your pokes and you'll be forced to block and tech throws.

Your best bet at the start of the match is to just stand in place and IB whatever he throws at you. 3C will not reach you as long as you don't push any buttons and you can punish it on whiff with 5C > 5D. Just bear in mind that if you're too late to punish 3C, he can 2D you and believe me, most Hakumens like to cover their mistakes with Counters. For 623A, you'll need to react to the incoming mix-up of throw/2B/6B. If your reactions are good, you can trying 5B'ing him or throwing him.

During neutral, he can use most of the aforementioned moves to control space or get in. You can low profile under 4C with your dashing 3C for a CH and an easy hit-confirm. Your 6B crushes his 3Cs if he's being predictable with them and you'll get stupid damage for a correct read. You can low profile with most crouching moves under his j.Cs if he's being predictable with them.

Most Hakumens will usually run away and try to zone you, waiting to intercept your approach with the aforementioned stuff, his anti-airs, as well as his Counters. Don't be predictable with your pokes, (3C, 5C, j.C, 2D) as he can just Counter them. Don't be reckless with your approach either as he has plenty of tools to intercept you. Make your way in slowly, using your pokes as best as you can. You have to know his and your attacks' hit-boxes, his neutral game rivals yours so you'll have to outpoke him to the best of your ability.

Once he has built a bit of meter, he'll try to get in on you. His 623A is extremely good at getting him in because of its I-frames and how fast that dash is in general. He can use 623A > A as an extremely good anti-air if you find yourself in the air and he can jump cancel it to make it safe. He can also try to get in on you with j.2C/IAD j.2Cs. The main threat in the air is his j.B, the only things that beat that thing are your DP A and B. Only use the B version if you know that you won't make it on time with the A version.

I would refrain from using ice blades in this match unless you're using them to either reset pressure or when he won't have enough time to cut them. If he cuts them, he'll create the Void, which renders most 2D poking attempts obsolete and makes it harder for you to poke him effectively. You can try tossing some B ice blades from across the screen to pester him but that time is better spent in trying to get in.

His Offense

Without meter, his pressure and mix-up is not really threatening. His pressure mostly consists of 2A, with the occasional 6A and 214A to get him back in. His mix-up is throw, 2B, 3C, and 6B. Your best bet is to IB Barrier his 2As until you push him out enough to the point where 2A will no longer reach you. At that point, you can try and IB + jump + Barrier away. You can also try and IB > backdash but be careful with that as it can be punished with things like 5B or 214A. If you get tagged by 6B, and you're finding yourself trolled on wake-up by that shit as it's pretty damn fast, then you can try to wake-up > backdash to avoid it next time. If sure as hell beats getting your wake-up DP baited.

With meter though, his mix-up becomes a threat. Zantetsu does ridiculous damage on its own and he can boost its damage by canceling it into more special moves. Don't try to guess block on him as his Renka does a shitload of damage as well. As mentioned before, he can use 623A to close the gap and attempt a throw. He can jump cancel his 5B and 623A > A and go into the dreaded j.B, in the other hand, you can use that chance to escape pressure. Moreover, he can do a fuzzy guard with a deep j.B > JC > j.B and hit-confirm into Tsubaki. That or he could just do a fuzzy guard with j.B (or any air normal really) > Tsubaki.

Speaking of Tsubaki, TK/hop Tsubaki does ridiculous damage near and in the corner and its damn near impossible to react to. If you feel a Tsubaki coming, then this is the one instance where I would encourage you to push buttons/wake-up DP/up+back+barrier, whatever it takes to avoid that thing other than guess block. That thing is too fast for the average human to react to lol. Fear this move, it's Hakumen's most powerful mix-up tool.

Be wary of air throws, 2C, or Hotaru when you tech in the air. Hold that Barrier and react to the throw attempt, don't risk pushing a button because he'll fuck you up for it.

I don't really encourage the use of IB > DP when he doesn't have much meter as it's easier for him to bait it through the use of 2A pressure but when he does have meter, I would advice you to throw those out from time to time since he'll be a lot more aggressive.

His Defense

Hakumen is one of those characters that can turtle you to death. His counters are usually active on the first frame and require a single button push to activate. Because of the nature of his counters, you'll be finding yourself in doubt as to when to push a button and he'll use that indecisiveness to his advantage. In the other hand, his counters are vulnerable to throws, so you too can force him into guessing games of your own. If you can get in on him to the point where you're at throw range, then you've done a good job.

He can use his counters as anti-airs and to nullify your pokes. Most Hakumens will be able to counter your 6B and 6D on reaction, so don't abuse any slow moves here. His counters shit on your cross-ups but you can use that chance to try and bait them for big damage. Hakumens will usually cover their whiffs and moves that are negative or punishable on block with counters. Don't be too eager to try and get in or punish, scout for counters and throw him out of them. Only attempt to punish something if you're absolutely sure it will be punishable.

Hakumen can bait your DPs with counters, predictable DPs will get you hurt.

Use a lot of throws during pressure to discourage him from mashing counters. Some Hakumens will be trying 2D/5D on wake-up but that's a huge risk for him to take as a wrong guess will hurt and a throw will fuck him up either way. Here's a free 6A CH combo for you if you guess correctly lol. However, Yukikaze catches both highs and lows so you'll only be able to throw him out of that one. Once you condition him into not abusing counters, then you can finally mount some pressure and mix-up on him.

His anti-airs include 5A, 6A, 2C, 623A > A, and Hotaru. 5A is not head invulnerable but it's fast and has a decent enough hit-box. 6A has head I-frames starting on frame 6 through frame 18. That thing has a pretty crappy hit-box so you could bait it with a simple double jump. 2C doesn't have head invul. but it has an amazing hit-box, it's highly punishable on whiff though. I already covered 623A > A in the past but it's a pretty good anti-air. While Hotaru costs two stars, that thing does a ridiculous amount of damage on FC near the corner, has an amazing hit-box, and is jump cancelable on block. Since it can be used in the air, it also works as an amazing air-to-air. You can bait all of them except Hotaru with ice blades. Just be careful when has two stars because he'll make you regret pushing a button in the air.

Speaking of Hotaru, that thing can be used as a pseudo DP in the form of hop/TK Hotaru. Hotaru has full body I-frames on frame 1 but he's vulnerable during the jump start-up (4 frames I believe) and a couple of frames until he's free to cancel the hop into Hotaru. He shouldn't be using that move during wake-up, as a proper meaty will tag him during the jump/hop start-up, right? Wrong, through the use of his counters, he can create guessing scenarios. If you try to throw him during wake-up anticipating a counter, you'll get tagged by Hotaru. If you try to use a meaty anticipating a wake-up TK/Hoptaru, you'll get tagged by the counter. Fucking guessing games...

Frame Data: Advantageous, Disadvantageous, and Punishable Moves

Neutral/Advantageous Moves:

  • 5A: +3
  • 5B: Neutral
  • 2A: +1
  • 2B: +2
  • 6A: Neutral, gatlings into 6B and counters.
  • 4C (Max Charge): +3
  • 214A: +1
  • 236B: +1


    Disadvantageous Moves:

    • 5C: -3, this move can be special canceled so be careful when trying to push buttons.
    • 6B: -4, gatlings into counters.
    • 6C: -6, this move can be special canceled so be careful when trying to push buttons.
    • 6C: (Max Charge): - 9, same as the above.
    • 4C: -10, same as the above.
    • 3C: -4
    • Zantetsu: -2, same as the above.

    Punishable Moves:

    [*]2C: -17, if you have an extra air option with Jin, you can do air dash j.A > j.2C to punish it if you're relatively low to the ground. This move can be special canceled so be careful when trying to punish.

    [*]6B: -4, punishable on IB only with 5A/5B. This move gatlings into any of the counters, be careful when trying to punish this move.

    [*]4C: -10, punishable on IB only with a perfectly timed micro-dash 5C or if used outside its max range.

    Gimmicks and Resets

    Don't push buttons after an air tech! More to come!

    Match Summary

    Coming soon!

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You covered almost everything, thanks man.

about gimmicks, I play hakumen a lot and got hit by his air resets thousands of times. one of the solutions I found is to delay your tech, don't mash to recover unless the haku player drops his combos a lot.

Also, there is another way to beat his counters on wake up that is more rewarding than throws, simply delay your attacks or use slow ones like 6B on his wake up if you predict a wake up counter.

his neutral game rivals yours so you'll have to outpoke him to the best of your ability.

This is the match up in a nutshell

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If you delay tech, he can punish that too. But it is troublesome since it's yet another mind game on top of the rest. It's definitely better to tech deliberately than desperately though since he'll always be waiting with a 2C or Hotaru for another combo.

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I'd rather just tech, hold Barrier and react to the throw. You know the throw is coming so you just have to react to it, better than eating extra netplay damage lol.

Good stuff on the counter bait with 6B, I forgot about that.

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Hey, if you do 2A+B on his wakeup can he counter it? If not, you could use it to see if he uses TK Hotaru and avoid him countering a real meaty.

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Think of it as an auto-confirm. If he rolls, he'll get tagged by the 2A and you'll confirm into 5B. If it whiffs, you'll just recover. At least that's what I'm guessing he meant by that lol.

It's simple really, if he has 2 stars, you have to be ready to bait Hotaru. If not then just 6B him or throw him for free damage if he decides to wake-up counter.

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What's 3AB? The cross-under? If so, then yeah, since his counters catch cross-ups for free. In the other hand, it does fuck up his Hotaru input so it might be worth a shot from time to time.

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If you delay tech, he can punish that too. But it is troublesome since it's yet another mind game on top of the rest. It's definitely better to tech deliberately than desperately though since he'll always be waiting with a 2C or Hotaru for another combo.

Depending on whether you used your air option before getting comboed, you may also have the option of tech > Jump or tech > airdash, which might get you out of some things depending on where you tech.

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I actually meant 1A+B... The 2A/barrier block "OS"

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No he'll counter your 2A since his counters doesn't have I-frames to make your 2A whiff

and of course it will beat his hotaru if you time it well on his wake up

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I wasn't sure how long it took for his drives to become active, but now that I looked at the frame data, yeah, that wouldn't work. Well shit.

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pressing buttons against him on wakeup is pretty dangerous, a ice car oki made the guessing game lean towards jin's favor tho

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