[CSE] Lambda vs Hakumen

[toanenadiz]

Hakumen gets a free step forward every time you whiff 6D. And once he is within Kishuu range, it becomes a guessing game, which is different than CS2.

[BeaverDeity]

Gotta watch out for his increased amount of meter gain too, which means more kishuu and more guessing.

[Hellknight10]

I usually just jump like an idiot waiting for his move

if he jumps then j.D and if he didn't then j.2D

if he is in Kishuu range then bait with 3C (and do a fancy CH 3C combo) or jump like an idiot and dash (forward or back) when he does it

also don't 6D too much when in range of a single Kishuu and not because of the Kishuu itself but because he can D counter you at that distance

and last but not least DON'T use so much Spike Chaser

everytime I see random Lambdas fight Hakumen they abuse it and get black holed by Hakumen and then they lose momentum and DAI

[someonewhodied]

I usually use my gravity meter to hold haku back though. Maybe thats why my strategy works so well.

And i dont normally stand around long enough to let haku get within 623A range. I keep the FULL screen away and just poke all game.

If i see a 623A coming and i time it well, my 236A brings me back across the screen on the other side.

then gravity. Then more poking.

More often than not, neither me nor the haku lands a single hit and I win from chip damage from the pizza wheel.

[mAc Chaos]

And now I need to test out EX Hakumen and see what has changed about him. Man, I wish there were more US Extend Hakumen players.

Did you learn anything since then.

[toanenadiz]

Yes

Edit: I'll give more information later.

[mAc Chaos]

[toanenadiz]

Match-up Ranking: 5-5

General Strategy

Most matches against Hakumen are going to be long battles of spacing. Haku can go through projectiles now with Kishuu which makes mid-range a dangerous ground to be at. Haku has good normals as well and his drives can put you in a bad position if he lands one on you. You want to be waiting for Hakumen to approach you while cautiously poking and never getting complacent. 214D and 236D is useless against Haku do to his drives as well as the fact that he cuts projectiles.

Long range: Poke with drives and watch out for IAD or multiple Kishuu in a row. He will most likely be either waiting for you to do something or slowly push forward to try to make you back into a corner.

Mid range (midscreen): Guessing game time. Haku's IAD attack beats anything that beats Kishuu. Kishuu beats anything that would be Haku's IAD attack. The only exception is IAD back sword which can cover both if timed right. You want to generally either get long range again or get close range on your terms to get him to block something and then escape. AAs beat Haku's IAD attack. Lows beat Kishuu.

Mid range (Lambda's back to the corner): You're really close to being fucked. If he passively jumps, run out underneath him. Like regular midscreen but you need to take some initiative to get your back out of the corner. Otherwise, you will be in the corner at close range.

Mid range (Haku's back to the corner): This is a good position for you. Your damage near the corner if enough to take the risks with staying at this range and you probably won't end up in the corner if Haku guesses right and hits you here. But don't forget that his 2D and 5D will put you in the corner though

Close range (Lambda in charge): Your 5A hits him crouching so you have that as a nice pressure tool. Be mindful of his drive. Don't be too obvious with crescent's since you will either be 5A'd or Hotaru'd. Outside of the corner, you are aiming for sending him full screen. In the corner, use 236D-less oki.

Close range (Haku in charge): This sucks a lot. His A and B moves are plus on block so it is risky to poke out. Barrier blocking and backdashing is what you will be doing. Since your 5A hits Haku crouching, you can use that to poke out rather than 2A. You can 5A any hops if you have that kind of reaction. Do you best to block him mix-up and fuzzy guard and find a path to escape.

Your Best Tools (For This Match-up)

• 5D: Locks down the space in front of Haku and if you catch him during a hop, you get an easy good damage combo
  
• 6D: Locks down Haku's IAD space and can also hit Haku standing
  
• 2D: Locks down Haku's super and double jump space
  
• jD: Locks down air movements of Haku (outside his jC range)
  
• j2D: Locks down ground movements of Haku (outside of Kishuu)
  
• 5A: Can AA Haku's low to the ground IADs. Hits Haku crouching as well
  
• 6A: Can be used to AA against Haku's low or high in the air
  
• 2C: Can be used to beat out Hotaru if done at the same time or before Hotaru. Can also be used to AA against Haku's high in the air
  
• 3C: Beats Kishuu and can AA Haku's jC
  
• Throw: Beats drive moves
  
• Gravity: Slows him down
  

Haku Reversals?

Has A DP?

No. But his counters can achieve almost the same effect. Can be used against physical and projectile attacks but lose to throws. Important thing to note is that the follow-up to his drive is unblockable. He is also fully invincible once he counters a move. This moves 236D or 236236D bad moves to use against Hakumen. He is free to counter them and you can't punish him in anyway. And if you get too close, you will get hit by the counter follow-up.

• 5D: 5 frames of start-up. Catches high and mid
  
• 2D: 1 frame of start-up. Catches low and mid
  
• 6D: 1 frame of start-up. Catches high and mid
  
• jD: 1 frame of start-up. Catches high and mid
  

Has A DP With Heat?

Kind of.

• Hotaru (j214B): Costs 2 stars. Fully invincible but he needs to be in the air to use it. Jump cancelable and special cancelable. He is safe so you can't punish it unless he whiffs.
  
• Yukikaze (236236D): Costs 4 stars. Counter super. Counters everything except throws (and unblockables, which Lambda doesn't have so it doesn't matter). Like all of his regular counters, he is fully invincible if he counters something. Hits the entire bottom half of the field. Can super jump or double jump over it. Can also gold burst it. Can RC projectiles to jump away.
  

Things To Look Out For

[*]The Void: Appears when he cuts a projectile with his sword. Stays on the screen for awhile. Doesn't move but it will eat any projectile that comes near it and does have a hitbox so Haku is safe to sit in it or use it to try to approach you. Also gives him a free taunt.

[*]5A/2A: Plus on block and good for Haku's pressure. Barrier blocking helps push him away

[*]6B: Overhead. Causes a knockdown. Doesn't do much damage but it is the 2nd fastest standing overhead in the game

[*]5C: Prevents jump-outs. Special cancelable. P1 of 100 so it is damaging. Don't jump out without barrier and barrier IB 5C and watch out any follow-ups

[*]jB: Amazing air move that will beat out a lot of stuff if you are in range of it.

[*]Kishuu (623A): Costs 1 star. Invincible to high, mid and projectile attacks. Vunerable for the first 5 frames and the final 4 frames. Use 2B, 3C or well timed drive to punish.

[*]Hotaru (j214B): Explained above.

[*]Tsubaki (j214C): Costs 3 stars. Overhead. Can only be used in the air (similar to Lambda's TK crescent). 19 frames (4 frames of jump start-up + 15 frames) of start-up. Can be canceled from his hop so it can be hard to react to. +3 on block

[*]Shippu (632146C): Costs 4 stars. It is fast and the wave deals 2.5K. Travels full screen. You probably won't see them throw it out often but it can work in a clutch for them.

[*]Drives and Yukikaze: Renders 236D oki useless against Hakumen. Can be used to counter drives. He is invincible after he counters something. For example, if you do 5DD and he counters the first hit, the 2nd part will whiff and he can freely move while you are in recovery

Conclusion

Be patient and vigilant. Haku doesn't have particularly amazing movement options so you can zone just fine if you pay attention and keep the spacing you want. Just like most match-ups though, one mistake will end the match. Pay attention to his magatama to know his options and what he has access to at any point.

Other

[*] Needs to dash 5B after 236B to combo in the corner.

[*] 236C > 236D works midscreen without a dash

[*] 5A hits Hakumen crouching, regardless of if he is in blockstun or not.

[mAc Chaos]

Don't forget that if he counters a sword, and you try to zoom in with one of her dash moves, you'll get hit by the counter.

[someonewhodied]

6D spam still going strong. STILL works every time. All I need is chip damage from the pizza wheel. Then it becomes a stall war with me spamming 6D and staying away. Of course if i can get a combo, I'm taking it.

[mAc Chaos]

y u do dis

[someonewhodied]

It works =D.

It limits hakumen to only one of 2 safe approach options. (Well, now 3 with the charge 4C)

623A, Walking, and Charge 4C.

Dash lets 6D pick you up off the ground.

Jump forces you into blockstun, falling into pizza wheel chip damage.

Double jump, airdash, and super jump are shut down by 6D

It works amazingly well so why not use it and then adapt to how your opponent plays? =D

[M19Kamikaze]

STILL works every time.

....whaaaaaaaa =___= Honestly, if it were THAT simple, I'd move over to 360 in a heartbeat. mAc, I SO want to play you one day, though. It's like, EVERY Lambda has had a shot, but me. Not saying I'll do any better, but it's like some sort of Lambda Initiation.

"You ain't no Lambda until you fought mAc"

[Nedel_3773]

....whaaaaaaaa =___= Honestly, if it were THAT simple, I'd move over to 360 in a heartbeat. mAc, I SO want to play you one day, though. It's like, EVERY Lambda has had a shot, but me. Not saying I'll do any better, but it's like some sort of Lambda Initiation.

"You ain't no Lambda until you fought mAc"

FML. I ain't no Lambda.

[toanenadiz]

Except that 6DD > 236D isn't a blockstring. They don't ever have to take the 236D chip damage. He can D it or most of the time just jump or IAD out. And as I'm pretty sure I've said before, everytime you whiff a 6D, he gets a free dash in. It's a great tool but any good Hakumen will be able to easily get around 6D spam. And we are of course assuming you are playing a good Hakumen.

And charge 4C is horrible. If you see a Hakumen think about doing it, just CH 5D him for free.

[mAc Chaos]

It works =D.

It limits hakumen to only one of 2 safe approach options. (Well, now 3 with the charge 4C)

623A, Walking, and Charge 4C.

Dash lets 6D pick you up off the ground.

Jump forces you into blockstun, falling into pizza wheel chip damage.

Double jump, airdash, and super jump are shut down by 6D

It works amazingly well so why not use it and then adapt to how your opponent plays? =D

I'm just giving you a hard time. :P 6D is a good move to depend on, like Ragna 5B, but it's not everything.

Wait so, you listed charge 4C. Did someone actually find a way to use that? I thought they put that move into the game just to troll Haku players.

....whaaaaaaaa =___= Honestly, if it were THAT simple, I'd move over to 360 in a heartbeat. mAc, I SO want to play you one day, though. It's like, EVERY Lambda has had a shot, but me. Not saying I'll do any better, but it's like some sort of Lambda Initiation.

"You ain't no Lambda until you fought mAc"

Well, spamming 6D would probably work on the majority of netplay, but is that what you would really want. :P Going through all that effort to change systems only to have nobody worth playing. But there's definitely people who can give you a run for your money. If you ever do get on 360 though, hit me up.

[someonewhodied]

But 6D worked even against mac last I played him .-. (Months ago, but still)

its a lot easier in theory than actual playing.

on a 6D block confirm hakumen doesn't know if you are going to:

a. Gravity Seed Stall

B. IAD forward>j.2DD>j.214D~C>ect

C. IAD Backward>another 6D

D. Pizza Wheeeeeeeeeeel ~C

It isn't the only thing I do off of 6D block confirm, but its still a nice tool when the hakumen is prepared to block, not jump.

You can also do 6DD>Normal Pizza Wheel to prevent haku jumping forward, and if he still does, you have barely enough time to throw out a random IAD>Air grab, which has better range than most attacks hakumen would do there (Meter attacks, j.A, J.B, J.2C)

It is really just a random guessing game where hakumen only has 1 approach option depending on what you do.

And at a certain range (half the screen, barely out of 623A range) 6D picks haku off the ground on his dash.

Stealth edit:

You can also do 236A>Grab as Haku can't do anything till he reaches the ground if he blocks 6D

[mAc Chaos]

I don't think anyone is saying 6D is bad. Just that it's not the ONLY thing to use. But you already agree with that since you're listing all this other stuff you do.

If you just stood there and spammed 6D like a robot, the Haku would get in on you pretty quick. You would have to mix in movement and other stuff to keep them out.

I wouldn't really call what you do 6D spamming, since if they're at full screen, what else are you going to do? It's like the only move that's relevant at that range anyway.

[someonewhodied]

Yeah, but I use 6D to lead into everything. it is just the only good constant pressure tool you can use to lead into other things against hakumen since he can frigging SHUT EVERYTHING ELSE DOWN ;~; (except for 4D but that is retarded)

[toanenadiz]

You're playing him in an EC-WC connection. Do you honestly expect him to be able to react to a lot of the stuff you do? Not to mention Mac is always rusty and doesn't particularly maximize what he can do in certain situations. He is probably the riskiest Hakumen out there.

As for 236D, it can be dealt with on reaction. It is seriously a slow move. I'm not quite sure how often you fight Lambda, but outside of knockdown, you can easily escape 236D on reaction 95% of the time.

If you follow-up 6DD with IAD j2DD, I'm pretty sure Haku could Kishuu and then put you in a corner.

IAD back would give Haku a free dash towards you moving you to the corner.

jB, jC, Hotaru and Tsubaki beat out Lambda's air throw.

It isn't that what you are saying is wrong but you are making the match-up out to be way easier than it is. It is 50-50 for a reason. Everytime you whiff a 6D, Haku has 60 free frames to do whatever he wants.

Edit: Cause I know that you are gonna be checking out this thread again Mac, in your experience, is TK Tsubaki (or hop Tsubaki I guess) plus on block or can someone push buttons and beat your buttons after you do it?

[mAc Chaos]

jB, jC, Hotaru and Tsubaki beat out Lambda's air throw.

It isn't that what you are saying is wrong but you are making the match-up out to be way easier than it is. It is 50-50 for a reason. Everytime you whiff a 6D, Haku has 60 free frames to do whatever he wants.

Edit: Cause I know that you are gonna be checking out this thread again Mac, in your experience, is TK Tsubaki (or hop Tsubaki I guess) plus on block or can someone push buttons and beat your buttons after you do it?

> Tsubaki

> blocked

I don't understand what you're saying. :P How can I tell you about something that has never occurred!

Nah, Tsubaki is +3 on block, so you can keep pressuring.

Her air throw actually pretty much beats anything. Any time I tried to even use j.A to beat it out when we play, I get vacuum'd in. The times when I hit you out of it is when I do those moves early because I'm expecting you to go for an air throw.

Her air throw is 7 frames, and j.A is 7 frames. In BlazBlue, throws beat attacks if they happen at the same time.

[mAc Chaos]

Here, I made a comparison using the hitboxes.

Here's Haku j.A VS Lambda throw:

As you can see, for Haku to even be in jab range means he gets thrown if they do it at the same time.

And here's Haku j.B:

He has to be absurdly high to be even one pixel out of range, a range nobody would ever actually use j.B at.

To hit you out of the throw and be in a decent range, he basically has to throw it out early so the move is already on its way before you hit throw.

Well, that's how I do it anyway.

[AchedSphinx]

6D > 236D doesn't work. 236D doesn't work in this match up so you shouldn't waste too much time doing it. 214D~C can be useful up close if the Hakumen thinks you're doing the fast one and he counters it badly. Since you can't keep him contained with 236D your best bet of winning are throws, anti-airs, and 4B.

I think the best way to win the match-up will rely mostly on Lambda's mix-up and when you have the life lead, force Hakumen to make mistakes. 6A and 5A are good things to have. Also, don't ever do Calamity Reversal in this fight. That kick j.214 goes through it. As does his counters.

Here are some fun facts to get away from an up close Hakumen. If he does stomp-the-yard overhead and you block it, it's -4 on block, don't attempt to counterattack, IAD over him, otherwise he'll do that counter low thing. Or you can probably dash and throw him. Other times after the overhead he does 3C, depends I suppose. His 3C is also bad on block, but be mindful of his counters.

You'll probably win by doing fullscreen hit confirms into combos. Best way to win. Also, if Hakumen has 4 stars, you can poke with drives, but don't do the follow-ups or you'll get hit. I'm not sure if it's even possible to punish him for doing the move if he hits a projectile, so I normally just gain distance. Also watch out for the wave, it does 2500.

4B[2] is fairly decent for this match-up I think because his low counter doesn't work on it, so he will have to guess if you'll use it or a low. Though, the safest alternative if you're going in close is to throw.

@mAc, yeah Lambda has a crazy long hitbox for air-throw. She can also air-throw if the opponent is behind her when she does it. I've done it a few times. I think this is Hakumen specific but sometimes 214D or 214D~C for Lambda will make Hakumen whiff a grab or an attack. It's really rare though but it's happened to me.

[someonewhodied]

6D(Block)>236D~C barely gives haku enough time to jump out after landing or block (giving you the advantage)/Counter (Immobilizing him, stalling for time, though he is invincible during the counter follow up), and guess what happens if he chooses to jump? Another 6D.

[toanenadiz]

Since he can jump out, he has at least 18 frames to move around before you can do anything (236D~C has 44 frames of start-up, 15+29) and 236D~C has 62 total frames. 236D as well as 236D~C is something that can be reacted to fairly easily so it isn't something you can count on happening often. It is a valid option but nowhere good as you are making it seem.