BBCSEX Match-up chart

[Dusk Thanatos]

Not sure what you're so venomous about. BB balance has been, overall, incredibly fair.

They've earned my trust, I didn't just decide to bequeath it to them.

They've been pretty alright to your character, though. >_>

Mine went from shit to mid-tier back to shit (and dropped). Mu was playable to playable to, oh, still playable.

Look at the Abel changelogs in SF for example, everyone thought he was completely fair, then he got it bad. And then they explained why and everyone was like: Ooooooo....

Thing is, Tsubaki got the nerfbat in so many places that made no sense to begin with. Plus, Mori has only been like LOLOLOL USE MUGEN MORE SCRUBS, and we've all seen how that's gone.

[Kurushii]

Her charge has improved then only slightly altered through the series though right?

[Dusk Thanatos]

Her charge has improved then only slightly altered through the series though right?

Charge speed went from meh to pretty good to not as good but still good (2D charge anyone?) with some charge cancel buffs.

Though the relative usefulness of charge has varied.

[A.X.I.S.]

rushdown with okay mixup and okay oki = okay character

that simple

Except that his damage is better than before and some of the characters that gave him trouble are not as good as before.

Honestly I don't think Ragna is THAT good but there is something in japan that we don't know...and that's why they scream S tier.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Except that his damage is better than before and some of the characters that gave him trouble are not as good as before.

Honestly I don't think Ragna is THAT good but there is something in japan that we don't know...and that's why they scream S tier.

Damage only means something if you can hit them. This is why CS1 Rags started lol S-Tier and dropped like a rock to the bottom of the playable charas by the time we switched to CS2.

And it is fair to say he might've gone up as a result of other people getting nerfed, but that doesn't help him become a fundamentally good character.

[Fluck]

Pretty much everyone in Japan agrees Ragna is S.

He isn't a rushdown character anyway, he's a zoner.

[mAc Chaos]

He has great damage and great normals/tools. It doesn't matter if his mixup is not amazing. And with all the meter he has he can do lots of goofy stuff too anyway. If a character's damage is high enough it overcomes a lot of their other problems. (See: Makoto, Arakune) And the fact that his tools are great means that he doesn't need to resort to lots of risk taking. And I know KayEff is going to come in here and be all "no everything Ragna has is worse than Tager" but it's still good compared to a lot of other characters.

Edited January 19, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[InfiniteChaos]

I would say Ragna being S-Tier is not overrated. Using the CS1 comparsion is not really fair since every charcter (except low tier) got really good midscreen damage and meter gain. The characerts higher than him had more options than he did and were just better. In Extend he has his CS1 meter gain with good midscreen damage ( off of his overhead or 2D with 50 heat). His meter gain in Extend is outrageous which gives him way more options for mixup, damage, oki etc.

I know 6B is slow as hell but people still get hit by it and it is 3.5k midscreen and gives him like 45 heat. All of his buffs really helped him and none of his nerfs are really important.

I agree he should fall but the lowest I see him going is to high A tier. He is a lot better than his CS1 counterpart imo.

Edited January 19, 2012 by InfiniteChaos

[BladeOfJustice7]

I know 6B is slow as hell but people still get hit by it and it is 3.5k midscreen and gives him like 45 heat. All of his buffs really helped him and none of his nerfs are really important.

I block litchi/bang mixup pressure. I cannot for the life of me consistently block 6b.

Also, Ragna is 4ever b-tier. I expect no less or better from him. He always falls back into b-tier just WHERE in the b-tier does he fall with each iteration of the game is the question. I also doubt hazama v.s hakumen is in hakumens favor. I haven't seen much relius videos lately, but I was under the assumption he would have better anti-hakumen tools than his son. I guess not :/

[Dusk Thanatos]

Pretty much everyone in Japan agrees Ragna is S.

He isn't a rushdown character anyway, he's a zoner.

His 5b is overrated. In CS2, the hurtbox actually extended past the hitbox

He has great damage and great normals/tools. It doesn't matter if his mixup is not amazing. And with all the meter he has he can do lots of goofy stuff too anyway. If a character's damage is high enough it overcomes a lot of their other problems. (See: Makoto, Arakune) And the fact that his tools are great means that he doesn't need to resort to lots of risk taking. And I know KayEff is going to come in here and be all "no everything Ragna has is worse than Tager" but it's still good compared to a lot of other characters.

He has good damage and controls space well enough but can't do enough once he's in. That's all.

He needs that meter for other things, like not shit standing confirms.

Makoto had ways to stay in after getting in (orb oki, etc) that were pretty reliable. Ara was lol one hit kills, and once he lost one-hit kills he dropped like a rock because hitting them twice was so much harder.

And lol at Ragna not having to take a lot of risks. Just. Lol.

I would say Ragna being S-Tier is not overrated. Using the CS1 comparsion is not really fair since every charcter (except low tier) got really good midscreen damage and meter gain. The characerts higher than him had more options than he did and were just better. In Extend he has his CS1 meter gain with good midscreen damage ( off of his overhead or 2D with 50 heat). His meter gain in Extend is outrageous which gives him way more options for mixup, damage, oki etc.

I know 6B is slow as hell but people still get hit by it and it is 3.5k midscreen and gives him like 45 heat. All of his buffs really helped him and none of his nerfs are really important.

I agree he should fall but the lowest I see him going is to high A tier. He is a lot better than his CS1 counterpart imo.

I'm not arguing that he's not better than other characters. I'm arguing his design is inherently screwed and he pays for it.

[Linear04]

Still doesn't change the fact that he's still regarded as top or high tier in extend

[zeth07]

Pretty much everyone in Japan agrees Ragna is S.

He isn't a rushdown character anyway, he's a zoner.

....lol

[mAc Chaos]

And lol at Ragna not having to take a lot of risks. Just. Lol.

Every character has to take a risk to do anything. The difference is whether those risks are worth the reward and how risky they are. In Ragna's case, he gets paid off pretty well for it and it's not like just throwing something out there and just praying it hits.

[Fluck]

It's great that we're able to have a serious discussion.

His 5b is overrated. In CS2, the hurtbox actually extended past the hitbox.

5B is overrated but still good. To beat it in that way requires you to hit his extended hurtbox, such as with a 5A or 2B...If used in such a way, you open yourself up to a lot of risk because Ragna can punish you if he DIDN'T hit 5B at that time. He also has the new and improved j.C which is something many players don't consciously realize is a powerful tool. It controls an incredible amount of space in the air and is hard to anti-air because of how high up he can throw it out and have it land anyway.

He has good damage and controls space well enough but can't do enough once he's in. That's all

He needs that meter for other things, like not shit standing confirms.

Makoto had ways to stay in after getting in (orb oki, etc) that were pretty reliable. Ara was lol one hit kills, and once he lost one-hit kills he dropped like a rock because hitting them twice was so much harder.

And lol at Ragna not having to take a lot of risks. Just. Lol.

The difference is he gets damage off everything now. D Divider confirm from 2P starting position leads into almost 4k now and is MUCH stronger compared to in CS2, so he doesn't really need meter for that. Previously, there was too much he had to do when he got in, but now that isn't the case.

Corner carry is consistently stronger now because j.C j.D does not drop and neither does Belial Edge into Hell's Fang, which adds about 1/3rd screen carry to his combos. For example, j.C 66 5B 6A TK GH 5B 5D into air combo would have ended with ID in CS2, but he can move into BE HF now and corner people from 1P starting position even.

Bursting his RC combos (which all do close to 5.5k) is a problem because leaving yourself with no burst could mean eating a huge BK combo later.

Greater damage inherently buffs his mixup with greater reward and j.C now gives him fuzzy guards on some chars. So that aspect of his game is stronger too, just less noticeable.

[A.X.I.S.]

The consensus is Ragna is better and characters that gave him trouble are worse.

That's all there is to it.

So about that Relius.

[C0R]

He's... slightly below mediocre in my opinion.

I would compare him to CS1.0 Mu.

Decent when doing their thing, problems getting there and keeping it up.

He has a lot of matchups that just ruin in him as well, he basically loses in every way Carl does, but lacks the 5-cheese supreme pizza that his son loves so much.

[prokiller88]

I cannot believe that Ragna is even 5-5/over with rachel, arakune, carl, hazama, relius, litchi, lambda, or mu. They can definitely out zone ragna and once ragna is out... it is hard getting back in unless they let you in. All of those should be 4-6 against ragna, damage with half okay oki cannot make them better for ragna.

Also, how is valk vs ragna not in valk's favor atleast slightly? Valk has better tools and damage over ragna. Blah who made this up >.>

[Sophisticat]

It's great that we're able to have a serious discussion.

This. It's about time.

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I'm taking the chart with a grain of salt, but it seems to be pretty in-line with other sources/lists I've seen, so... *shrug*

All I care is that Haku and Valk are top now. Pringles. :3

-----

Anyway, Ragna does seem pretty solid this time around. Reference vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY8_zOyv1ls Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc0_9DXhYAo Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrgoK4fiAq0 Final Part

It's an FT10 with Chin (God Bless) vs. Sakamoto (Ragna). I see nothing to suggest that Ragna isn't solid this time around, but the matches do make me question whether the chart's take of 4.5:5.5, Haku:Ragna is accurate. It looks more equal to me. I suppose the usual Ragna/HK matchup frustrations lend themselves to that.

[AchedSphinx]

I cannot believe that Ragna is even 5-5/over with rachel, arakune, carl, hazama, relius, litchi, lambda, or mu. They can definitely out zone ragna and once ragna is out... it is hard getting back in unless they let you in. All of those should be 4-6 against ragna, damage with half okay oki cannot make them better for ragna.

Also, how is valk vs ragna not in valk's favor atleast slightly? Valk has better tools and damage over ragna. Blah who made this up >.>

In the first post it says match ups they're not sure about it became 5-5. So chances are people just don't know how the match-up Ragna has is versus zoners and also take this match-up chart with a grain of salt. Once Extend releases, we'll be able to iron it all out.

[Fluck]

In the first post it says match ups they're not sure about it became 5-5. So chances are people just don't know how the match-up Ragna has is versus zoners and also take this match-up chart with a grain of salt. Once Extend releases, we'll be able to iron it all out.

Extend has been out in Japan for ages and this is a Japanese list.

Not saying that you're wrong other than that. However, don't be surprised if later lists have Ragna with no bad match-up anyway.

I personally think Ragna's at A+ with Bang.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Relius is slightly weak, IMO, but he has lots of room for creativity while the doll is out. The staggers are vicious, Led Ley is a nasty baiting tool, and the doll can control nice space when you know the tricks.

I think what really kills him is how long doll meter lasts. NEVER LONG ENOUGH. NEVER LONG ENOUGH ;_;

EDIT: More like what rapes me is how long doll meter lasts, lol. I need better meter management

Edited January 19, 2012 by Dusk Thanatos

[InfiniteChaos]

I cannot believe that Ragna is even 5-5/over with rachel, arakune, carl, hazama, relius, litchi, lambda, or mu. They can definitely out zone ragna and once ragna is out... it is hard getting back in unless they let you in. All of those should be 4-6 against ragna, damage with half okay oki cannot make them better for ragna.

Also, how is valk vs ragna not in valk's favor atleast slightly? Valk has better tools and damage over ragna. Blah who made this up >.>

Haz vs. Ragna was a 5-5 matchup in CS2 so it makes sense that it is in his favor now that he got better. Also I am pretty sure Ragna had a favorable (5.5-4.5) matchup against Valk in CS2 but do not quote me on this.

[AchedSphinx]

Extend has been out in Japan for ages and this is a Japanese list.

Not saying that you're wrong other than that. However, don't be surprised if later lists have Ragna with no bad match-up anyway.

I personally think Ragna's at A+ with Bang.

Fair enough. I just figure we need a bit more time before we have anything conclusive. Though all this match-up talk makes me want to sub more characters to figure out the changes myself.

[Kurushii]

Relius is slightly weak, IMO, but he has lots of room for creativity while the doll is out. The staggers are vicious, Led Ley is a nasty baiting tool, and the doll can control nice space when you know the tricks.

I think what really kills him is how long doll meter lasts. NEVER LONG ENOUGH. NEVER LONG ENOUGH ;_;

+1. The main weakness is you have to use Ignis meter up to get in on high mobility characters. So by the time you get that hit confirm you don't have enough Ignis meter to finish the job with good damage. Have to dismiss her early and lose your pressure. Give him a primer breaker that isn't tied to Ignis, and lower the doll costs overall for active/inactive and he'll be more balanced to handle his bad match ups. The Haku match up of his that's horrible I honestly don't know how they will fix in later versions without making Relius too strong for his other match ups. He's a C+ imo.

[AchedSphinx]

+1. The main weakness is you have to use Ignis meter up to get in on high mobility characters. So by the time you get that hit confirm you don't have enough Ignis meter to finish the job with good damage. Have to dismiss her early and lose your pressure. Give him a primer breaker that isn't tied to Ignis, and lower the doll costs overall for active/inactive and he'll be more balanced to handle his bad match ups. The Haku match up of his that's horrible I honestly don't know how they will fix in later versions without making Relius too strong for his other match ups. He's a C+ imo.

C+? Lower than Tager? How does he fair against Tager then? This seems interesting. And yes, I am asking a question, on top of a question, inside of a question.