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BBCS Extend Tier List Thread

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Answer: @pktazn My assessment is mostly based on the dual tandem of both A DP and D DP (+followups). They are both flawed as reversals, but an opponent who is aware of your current meter situation will be forced to play slightly more safe in a given offensive situation. It is similar to Jin, who has an fast, amazing reversal (623D), which gives his really weird, slow reversal (623C) effectiveness in defensive situations.

Answer: @tataki Sorry, but a full version does not exist. This is a big conversation we had at a family restaurant the Thursday before I came back, and a couple follow-up twitter messages I sent him to clear certain things up, but alas, a full version does not exist whatsoever.

Answer: @DustThanatos This is an assessment I made based on total effectiveness versus the entire cast. Rachel's neutral game is very strong, but has slight flaws based on resources available and has very apparent flaws in specific matchups (Lambda, Hazama, Relius), compared to a character like Ragna who may not be able to control space as efficiently at certain distances of the screen, but always has the correct tools to conquer any particular neutral matchup with enough patience and is not limited by any particular resource.

Answer: @DustThanatos This is probably more of an issue of nomenclature, rather than actual classfication. I don't feel like the separation of the zoning, spacing, and rush-down archetypes are as far apart in a game like BlazBlue versus a game like Street Fighter, so my choice of the word "Spacing Character" is just what I feel he is best classified at in a top level situation. It may be a bit of a culture gap, because what I consider a "Spacing Character" is just someone who fights mostly via "Tachimawari" which I loosely translate to "Neutral Game". Anyhow, because his normals are so strong (don't forget j.C and j.A!) in this version, I believe it's more his strong spacing game that let's him get in and play a more rushdown oriented style when he finally does get in.

Frankly, whatever I may sum up a character in 10-15 words will never do it complete justice, so there isn't much I can do here except pick the best words I can think of. A point that is very worthy of discussion.

I agree for the most part with Zeth07's assessment on Litchi's neutral game, but despite being able to control how the opponent moves with the staff return, the opponent also gains information on how Litchi can move most effectively as well. I used to think the matchup was impossible for some characters, but in reality because you can pick angles and attacks where Litchi will be forced to either block or get hit, you can actually combat Litchi very effectively. This is the main reason I have rated her Neutral game at A-, but I could see it rising higher depending on a player's ability to fight against the flow they've created for themselves. Shounen is very good at this, but as of right now, I can't tell if it's Litchi's inherant ability or Shounen getting away with things that only Shounen can.

Also, to everyone reading this thread, don't be discouraged from disagreeing with me or anyone if you feel like you have the right stuff to back it up. I sometimes multitask while writing thoughtful things, so I make mistakes or incorrect assessments. Sometimes you might be able to point out something I personally just missed, so we can discuss it and have the thread be a good thread.

Edited by Xie

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I agree for the most part with Zeth07's assessment on Litchi's neutral game, but despite being able to control how the opponent moves with the staff return, the opponent also gains information on how Litchi can move most effectively as well. I used to think the matchup was impossible for some characters, but in reality because you can pick angles and attacks where Litchi will be forced to either block or get hit, you can actually combat Litchi very effectively. This is the main reason I have rated her Neutral game at A-, but I could see it rising higher depending on a player's ability to fight against the flow they've created for themselves. Shounen is very good at this, but as of right now, I can't tell if it's Litchi's inherant ability or Shounen getting away with things that only Shounen can.

Two really quick questions about this:

1) When you say "pick angles where Litchi is forced to block or get hit", do you mean like being able to make Tsubame or Riichi whiff by jumping at the right angles, etc.? Or something else?

2) "Player's ability to fight against the flow they've created for themselves." What do you mean by this?

Thanks for taking the time to do this dude, keep it up.

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I believe that this

Complexity: Another flavorful descriptor, also does not have much meaning in terms of character strength. Describes a character's abilities number of TOTAL options in a given time.

is grammatically incorrect.

Question: what is considered to be an ability? (Because ability is kinda broad to me)

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I am a scrubby theory-fighter, but let's join in the discussion!

I believe that Bang's neutral viability assessment is false and should be increased to S rank. I feel that he is stronger than Ragna in the neutral game for the following reasons:

1. Although his 5B is not as comparable to Ragna's 5B, and he lacks any moves that give him to cover as much of the screen as Ragna's 5C, dash 5A is an extremely viable option at closer ranges that makes it harder to deal with him in the closer mid-range game. Ragna lacks such an option. Bang's 5B is also still a very good and respectable poke and is harder to jump over, and its extended hitbox is not as weak as Ragna's.

2. He has two air options and his air normals are buffed in Extend. Although Ragna's j.C is extremely strong at far ranges, Bang has similarly strong options because of this extra air mobility, coupled with how good his normals are in their own right. For example, his ability to jump and airdash puts him at higher altitudes which is usually favourable in an air-to-air spacing battle. In addition, while Ragna struggles in neutral against zoners, Bang's mobility means that his match-up against such characters is usually in his favour.

3. Although Bang lacks a go-to anti-air option, he has a variety of ghetto options to reduce his weakness in this area, such as 5B, j.A, and even 2D and TK command grab. Bang's greater tendency to be airborne also reduces the chances of his ground-to-air weakness surfacing. While I accept that it is a real weakness, I do not believe that it is significant enough to drop his viability below S when his strengths are considered as well.

4. Nails. Nails are an option that Ragna does not have. Airdash into single nails can be incredibly effective in punishing the opponent from doing even basic movement options, and Dnails cover a very large amount of space and allows Bang to transition from neutral to offense very effectively. Nails also allow Bang to summon Bumpers, which further improve his movement options.

I made an edit about my opinion on his strength.

Edited by Fluck

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I am a scrubby theory-fighter, but let's join in the discussion!

I believe that Bang's neutral viability assessment is false and should be increased to A+ rank (EDIT: S Rank while I was typing all that lol). I feel that he is at least as strong as Ragna in the neutral game for the following reasons:

1. Although his 5B is not as comparable to Ragna's 5B, and he lacks any moves that give him to cover as much of the screen as Ragna's 5C, dash 5A is an extremely viable option at closer ranges that makes it harder to deal with him in the closer mid-range game. Ragna lacks such an option. Bang's 5B is also still a very good and respectable poke and is harder to jump over.

2. He has two air options and his air normals are buffed in Extend. Although Ragna's j.C is extremely strong at far ranges, Bang has similarly strong options because of this extra air mobility, coupled with how good his normals are in their own right. For example, his ability to jump and airdash puts him at higher altitudes which is usually favourable in an air-to-air spacing battle. In addition, while Ragna struggles in neutral against zoners, Bang's mobility means that his match-up against such characters is usually in his favour.

3. Although Bang lacks a go-to anti-air option, he has a variety of ghetto options to reduce his weakness in this area, such as 5B, j.A, and even 2D and TK command grab. Bang's greater tendency to be airborne also reduces the chances of his ground-to-air weakness surfacing. While I accept that it is a real weakness, I do not believe that it is significant enough to drop his viability below A+ when his strengths are considered as well.

4. Nails. Nails are an option that Ragna does not have. Airdash into single nails can be incredibly effective in punishing the opponent from doing even basic movement options, and Dnails cover a very large amount of space and allows Bang to transition from neutral to offense very effectively. Nails also allow Bang to summon Bumpers, which further improve his movement options.

It's funny because originally I was going to make a post saying quite the opposite that Bang's neutral viability is not as good as it says based on how good other characters (Litchi / Rachel at least) are at neutral. This is again the case of me seeing how one character is ranked and comparing them to Bang, in my case I was looking at Litchi being A- and Rachel being A as well. I feel like both of those characters are much better at Neutral than Bang, so I felt like Bang should have actually been rated lower than them.

To me being good at neutral means various things, being able to control parts of the screen, being able to dictate the pace of the match, and being able limit your opponents options. I feel like Rachel and Litchi are incredibly strong in this department, while Bang on the other hand is really only about getting up close to the opponent and trying to hit them/put them in a blockstring.

Bang's nails imo are very lacking or can be avoided or disrespected too much, again compared to Litchi's and Rachel's options. If anything they at least allow him to get closer to the opponent but considering they are a limited resource you have to be cautious in how you use them. I also think that BB's tech system severely hurts Bang's playstyle, because even if he gets a knockdown it isn't a good hard knockdown like GG that lets him get a real oki situation. Compared to other characters that can practically force people to neutral tech+block and not roll at all, Bang as a mixup character has nothing like that. This imo is something I feel that Bang is lacking in his gameplay.

In general I feel like the characters can separated into 2 groups in how they get to control the game as a whole. The first group gets to be in almost complete control with no real limits and the opponent has to play to their tune, while the other group is more or less "just trying to hit the opponent". Outside of how much damage a character does, you can pretty much tell who the "strong" characters are just within the game system. With that said, I feel that characters like Litchi, Rachel, Jin, and Carl are being underestimated in some categories due to the nature of the game and their playstyle and tools.

As an example, if you look at Litchi and Relius by comparison, and really watch how they play, the function of Litchi's staff and Relius' control of Ignis actually seem very similar in gameplay functions. And yet Relius is much more limited as a character imo, you see that Litchi can do practically the same stuff and yet it is for free with almost no drawbacks. I feel this is actually the case with multiple characters compared to others, which is why I think you can see the difference in who the strong characters are by design and how it factors into things.

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Answer: @CrazyI-nomitsu I think it's pretty balanced. At top level play, player skill seems to matter far more than character choice. It's not to say uneven matchups don't exist, but power level of the weakest character compared to the strongest one seems much closer than before.

Answer: @Spud I'll answer both questions at once, cause I'm cool like that. As I stated before, Litchi controls space most effectively by using staffed normals/specials or by setting the staff and using one of many return functions However, players who are experienced in Litchi's staff spacing and staff flight patterns will be able to stifle both by being at the right place at the right time and attack with the right normal at the right time.

For example, versus 2D type set + Return, many characters can use a rising air to air normal the moment the staff is about to pass under them to prevent Litchi from IADing at them with a normal. The Litchi player will need to take this particular countermeasure into account, but also avoid being forced to block in the moment that the opponent is airborne despite not having a safe anti-air. The main thing this serves to illustrate is that there is some particular risk involved with certain Litchi spacing patterns in some matchups, and Litchi may be put into a situation where she is forced to block depending on when and where she let the staff start flying.

Of course, some characters don't even play this game with Litchi, and have a much easier time forcing Litchi to block and stopping the staff movement. As I mentioned, there are new staff movement patterns (such as the numerous Four Winds return patterns that Shounen was using in recent a-cho exhibition tournament) and players still have many options as to what they can do, so I could potentially see this parameter rising in the near future.

Answer: @DLM Undead Sorry, I make typos. I have edited that section to have it make more sense. However, bear in mind this descriptor is intentionally vague at it is meant to be a flavor descriptor. The term "Ability" is not really a term, it was just meant to be a blanket way to describe the options that go underneath it.

That's actually it for today. I'll probably talk about Bang's neutral game sometime tomorrow evening. In the meantime, please try to have intelligent discussions in my absence.

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I disagree with zeth's notion that

And it's not like her [Rachel's] gameplay doesn't allow for her to safely setup most of that stuff anyway, like how often do you actually see Rachel get punished just for trying to summon pumpkin. It's just very hard for me to agree that Ragna's control of neutral is somehow better than Rachel's based on the tools available within the match.

because an auto-piloted pumpkin summon can be very dangerous. One of rachel's more basic neutral game strategies is to summon pumpkin in the air so she can wind it down and attack. Well, many players are familiar with this tactic and will air grab rachel before she has the chance to summon pumpkin. (Rachel also has less start up frames for a pumpkin summon mid-air as well, which also encourages the air summoning.) On the ground, unless Rachel is at full screen, she cannot summon pumpkin completely safely (and even then, she's not completely safe from lambda, hazama, bang's nails, platinum's items if she has the right ones, etc etc etc).

Also, you may not be noticing in videos because ppl are getting throw counters before rachel's animation even comes out for pumpkin. And all this doesn't even account for things like: Rachel's pumpkin disappears on block. George disappears if Rachel is grabbed (whether teched or not) George has less hitpoints than in cs2. so ragna (and several members of the cast) can do away with rachel's zoning tools easier than before) etc.

As far as Rachel having the tools, remember that her wind doesn't recover as quickly in extend as it did in cs2 which also can contribute to Rachel's neutral game decreasing in viability

Edited by Herbal Grey

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I disagree such low reward for Rachel. She have great corner carry combos, good knockdown from most combos, can setup George or pumpkin. She still have great damage from 5B if you have wind and heat. Her corner combos from any starter does at least 3k+, regenerate wind, sets George+sometimes pumpkin and give ioh/low mixup.

Talking about her neutral game, it very strong depends on matchup. She have S+++ versus Arakune, but B-C rank for Lambda, Relius, Carl, etc. In total i think it can be lowered to A-.

I disagree Makotos rankings too.

About reward, i think it can be a bit higher: Her counter hit combos are strong, though it can be hard to hitconfirm. From good starter(5C) in corner or in most places on midscreen on CH she have 4500+ without heat usage. On normal hit she can RC for better corner carry and damage.

Neutral must be worse: she does not have anything good except 6A and 5B. Most chars can zone her with long pokes. She must be very close to opponent for starting pressure.

Offensive i think better: Makoto have very much ways to reset pressure, tons of frametraps, options for baiting mashing/reversals(214A~D/214B/214C~D). Though it's punishable, it greatly rewarded if you confirm right. On some chars she can do 5A on crouching in blockstun, what gives you +2 on normal block.

Answer: @pktazn My assessment is mostly based on the dual tandem of both A DP and D DP (+followups). They are both flawed as reversals, but an opponent who is aware of your current meter situation will be forced to play slightly more safe in a given offensive situation. It is similar to Jin, who has an fast, amazing reversal (623D), which gives his really weird, slow reversal (623C) effectiveness in defensive situations.

You must note that Jins D DP can be beaten by option selects on meaty. I.E. 2A~5B~DP/Invulnerable DD/Block/Parry. It does works on most DPs except Ragnas and MUs afaik(both can be clashed, but require tight spacing and right char), but it's harder to do and some chars can't do this because long 2A recovery

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You must note that Jins D DP can be beaten by option selects on meaty. I.E. 2A~5B~DP/Invulnerable DD/Block/Parry. It does works on most DPs except Ragnas and MUs afaik(both can be clashed, but require tight spacing and right char), but it's harder to do and some chars can't do this because long 2A recovery

I would not consider option selects as a unique weakness of Jin's D uppercut, as you even stated it to be the case in this weakness appling to all uppercuts. That is an example of a player choosing an option to beat reversals, and every character has similar options in some form, even ones as simple as blocking. That is a qualitative property of player choice, and is not conclusive or relevant to the quantitative strength of defensive options.

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I would not consider option selects as a unique weakness of Jin's D uppercut, as you even stated it to be the case in this weakness appling to all uppercuts. That is an example of a player choosing an option to beat reversals, and every character has similar options in some form, even ones as simple as blocking. That is a qualitative property of player choice, and is not conclusive or relevant to the quantitative strength of defensive options.

on other chars you must have enough fast jab recovery and timing is much harder(1-2F for most dps/dds with good 2A - 8F recovery). D DP is slooow. Some players don't do dp if they have no heat for RC or they aren't sure if it'll hit. If you are talking about just blocking dp, than you have chance that your opponent will just mash something on wake and you lose adventage.

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I agree with the notion brought up by anyone with regard to Bang's neutral game being good, better than Rachel on the grounds that most characters require a game plan to move in on Bang, his pokes, though short ranged, are fast and very useful. His mobility speaks enough for his ability to maneuver around most situations, which is why he can manage well vs zoners. His nails in most cases is a guaranteed approach as well. In many cases, Bang can force the situation in his favor, again with his mobility and nails. He also has his guard points, while not perfect, is still a viable option against a lot of projectile and physical pressure.

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Answer: @CrazyI-nomitsu I think it's pretty balanced. At top level play, player skill seems to matter far more than character choice. It's not to say uneven matchups don't exist, but power level of the weakest character compared to the strongest one seems much closer than before.

Since you said that, then a character like Makoto can still dominate?

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As of right now, my assessment of Bang's neutral viability is unchanged. As of right now, I feel as though Bang is rarely truly disadvantaged in a neutral battle because of his overall tool set, performing extremely well in the neutral game in most matchups. His lack of a few standard go-to tools and limited resources for some tools prevents him from being pushed to top class in neutral combat. If you have not yet, please read my short write-up on Bang's neutral viability on the front page of this topic. I like the discussion from both sides, but I think both of parties need to step it up with their research if they want to convince one another, including myself.

I agree with the sentinment that characters that can OS a DP have an edge in offensive viability versus certain opponents. Regarding DPs attacks that are OSable via whiff normals, it is true that there is a countermeasure in the form of whiff normal OS attacks (which is similar to how it is possible to OS backsteps and combo from roll punishes), it is more of a question of what is the opposing character's offensive viability during a knockdown and whether or not they will be in a position to perform an option select against the DP. Furthermore, options such as safe jumps and forced okizeme do exist in BlazBlue, so do not fear, I have taken these options largely into account when rating defense.

Furthermore, to clarify, my assessment of Hirsenou as a fast move does not refer directly to the speed at which the startup is over and the first active frames appear, but is fast in terms of how big the hitbox is and where it is by the frame that it comes out. Hirensou reaches very far for a reversal, and is easily among the fastest of its range class. Compare it to C Inferno Divider, which has a very close range hitbox on the first hit, but one that is similar to Hirensou by the second hit, making it about the same speed for that given range. Of course, this makes Hirensou not as strong as other DP type attacks for opponents that stick their vulnerable boxes into you, but stronger for far spaced blockstrings. Normally, these types of comparisons are quite common, but I do admit it was confusing in that context and greater care probably should have been taken on the wording on my part, so for that I apologize.

Answer: @Crazy-Inomitsu Sure, why not? Goro seems to do pretty damn well. Also, watch your formatting, I am lenient now but I will begin to drop the hammer very soon.

Let's talk more about Makoto and Bang tomorrow. Also, the mook scans are coming out, so I would expect to see some shifts in assessment based on them. I for one, re-developed some new technology just by seeing the proration data again. :P

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Question: I have my doubts about Ragna's defence viability being S+, while Mu's is an A. Both dp's are fairly good because they can be combo'd of in the corner and they can be used in the air. So the 2 dp's are just as usefull. While the startup of Mu's dp is a few frames slower and it's range is quite weak compared to ID, but it has a lower recovery incase if it's baited and it is not as long in counterhit state as ID. Her dp being a high level guardpoint seems to be better than being invul. in some cases, because if she will more often win incase it clashes with other dp's.

Also Mu has a fairly good backdash, while ragna's backdash is average. So i think either Ragna's defence viability should be lower or Mu's slightly higher.

Edited by bakahyl

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Attempted Answer: @ bakahyl Ragna has a higher defensive rating than Mu because of the following reasons:

1. Although Mu's guardpoint on Origins is useful, it is an advantage that rarely surfaces. Origins does not clash more than ID either - clashing is not a result of guardpoints. The reduced CH state on Origins is not significant; if it's baited, the opponent has 23 frames to do a CH punish on block, which is enough. On the other hand, the much weaker hitbox on Origins is a weakness that surfaces very often. For example, it is impossible to bait ID on opponent's wake-up by jumping and then airdashing backwards, because it has so much range, but that is not the case for Origins. Another example of this weakness is that it is very easy to backdash out of Origins' range and prevent Mu from RCing, but much harder to do the same for ID.

2. Mu's backdash, although great, is still not her favoured option for escaping strings and wake-up pressure. This is because it is only invuln for 5 frames. It is thus very possible for Mu to be caught out of her backdash by strings that Origins and and ID would beat (for example, Ragna's 2A Gauntlet Hades or 2A 5C will beat it if Mu backdashes after 2A). It also loses to active moves such as Ragna's 5B. Another point against it is the fact that it very rarely reverses momentum, unlike Origins, and thus offers less reward. Indeed, even when it goes unpunished, Mu still often finds herself under pressure (e.g. whiffed Ragna 2A into dash 5B will not be able to punish Mu if Ragna timed his 2A wrongly, but even then Mu still has to block) While backdash does have its defensive uses, the situations where it would be favourable to Origins are few, and this reduces the weight of the move in terms of defensive viability. I find that Mu's backdash is most useful in neutral, personally speaking.

3. Aside from the earlier two points, Ragna also has basic statistical advantages over Mu defensively. He has one more Guard Primer at five, which is a very significant number as he can CA and Burst with two primers remaining. In addition, although both Mu and Ragna have 10,000 HP, Ragna very often ends up with more thanks to his drive, especially if the opponent chooses not to barrier block blockstrings. Even if the opponent does barrier block, Ragna is easily capable of stealing 700-800 HP per corner combo. Thus, after two corner combos, he would have more than 11,500 HP (more than Jin and Bang), which is a very big advantage.

Edited by Fluck

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Attempted Answer: @ bakahyl Ragna has a higher defensive rating than Mu because of the following reasons:

1. Although Mu's guardpoint on Origins is useful, it is an advantage that rarely surfaces. Origins does not clash more than ID either - clashing is not a result of guardpoints. The reduced CH state on Origins is not significant; if it's baited, the opponent has 23 frames to do a CH punish on block, which is enough. On the other hand, the much weaker hitbox on Origins is a weakness that surfaces very often. For example, it is impossible to bait ID on opponent's wake-up by jumping and then airdashing backwards, because it has so much range, but that is not the case for Origins. Another example of this weakness is that it is very easy to backdash out of Origins' range and prevent Mu from RCing, but much harder to do the same for ID.

2. Mu's backdash, although great, is still not her favoured option for escaping strings and wake-up pressure. This is because it is only invuln for 5 frames. It is thus very possible for Mu to be caught out of her backdash by strings that Origins and and ID would beat (for example, Ragna's 2A Gauntlet Hades or 2A 5C will beat it if Mu backdashes after 2A). It also loses to active moves such as Ragna's 5B. Another point against it is the fact that it very rarely reverses momentum, unlike Origins, and thus offers less reward. Indeed, even when it goes unpunished, Mu still often finds herself under pressure (e.g. whiffed Ragna 2A into dash 5B will not be able to punish Mu if Ragna timed his 2A wrongly, but even then Mu still has to block) While backdash does have its defensive uses, the situations where it would be favourable to Origins are few, and this reduces the weight of the move in terms of defensive viability. I find that Mu's backdash is most useful in neutral, personally speaking.

3. Aside from the earlier two points, Ragna also has basic statistical advantages over Mu defensively. He has one more Guard Primer at five, which is a very significant number as he can CA and Burst with two primers remaining. In addition, although both Mu and Ragna have 10,000 HP, Ragna very often ends up with more thanks to his drive, especially if the opponent chooses not to barrier block blockstrings. Even if the opponent does barrier block, Ragna is easily capable of stealing 700-800 HP per corner combo. Thus, after two corner combos, he would have more than 11,500 HP (more than Jin and Bang), which is a very big advantage.

1. It's weaker hitbox should not always be a problem as dp's are most of the time tools to escape pressure string or mixups. If you are mashing dp's on wakeup, then ID can just be as easily baited as tsugunui. As for avoiding dp's, well litchi's is pretty hard to avoid (being 2 part, huge hitbox etc) plus she has itsuu for some attacks with guardpoint as well. But her defence viability is pretty much at the bottem, maybe because she needs her staff to do so.

2.Even if it is not favored, she has an extra defensive tool over Ragna. The main reason why ragna has S+ tier defence is mostly because of ID. While tsugunui still is inferior (but in my opinion not by that much), but mu still has another tool. Also in case of the extra pushback caused by the new barrier guarding, i think mu is better off than ragna by keeping people away.

3. The loss of a primer is worse for Mu, but the number of moves that remove primers have been reduced in extend. Also wasn't the amount drained of the barrier gauge while having 1 primer reduced? So i don't think the higher statistcal value are that much of an issue or Tager would have had better defence viability because of his high health,his 360 or 720 busters as a ground reversal , good backdash and 10 primers.

Edited by bakahyl

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Question: While I'm aware that tiers are not set in stone, do you believe that the tiers will shift by a good margin over the course of Extend's Lifespan? If I remember correctly early CS1 tier lists had Ragna on top due to his high damage output among other things, he was later moved to high/mid due to his telegraphed mixup options and his inability to stay in. It's my impression that both Ragna and Hakumen may drop, though not by much, due to poor pressure options even if their neutral game is really good. At the same time I would assume that characters who can open up their opponents better than Ragna and Hakumen may rise once players learn ragna/hakumen pressure.

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Attempted Answer: Oh yes. You never know what happens. Right now we got Makoto at the bottom and she is still winning. This game works in strange ways. The list will change, but not a whole lot. Expect Makoto move to up though.

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1. It's weaker hitbox should not always be a problem as dp's are most of the time tools to escape pressure string or mixups. If you are mashing dp's on wakeup, then ID can just be as easily baited as tsugunui. As for avoiding dp's, well litchi's is pretty hard to avoid (being 2 part, huge hitbox etc) plus she has itsuu for some attacks with guardpoint as well. But her defence viability is pretty much at the bottem, maybe because she needs her staff to do so.

2.Even if it is not favored, she has an extra defensive tool over Ragna. The main reason why ragna has S+ tier defence is mostly because of ID. While tsugunui still is inferior (but in my opinion not by that much), but mu still has another tool. Also in case of the extra pushback caused by the new barrier guarding, i think mu is better off than ragna by keeping people away.

3. The loss of a primer is worse for Mu, but the number of moves that remove primers have been reduced in extend. Also wasn't the amount drained of the barrier gauge while having 1 primer reduced? So i don't think the higher statistcal value are that much of an issue or Tager would have had better defence viability because of his high health,his 360 or 720 busters as a ground reversal , good backdash and 10 primers.

1. It isn't always a problem but its disadvantages surface more often than you think. Since you brought up pressure strings, I'll use two such situations as examples to illustrate my point. A standard Ragna blockstring of 5B 5C Dead Spike will lose to Inferno Divider, but Tsunugui will lose because of Dead Spike's disjointed hitbox. Tsunugui won't work against Jin's air ice swords either. For example, a blockstring such 2B 5B 5C jump cancel j.236D to bait anti airs will work against Tsunugui as well, but Inferno Divider will beat anything Jin does except barrier block. So there are several situations where ID works and Tsunugui doesn't.

The point about Litchi is another topic, but she does suffer from requiring staff to be held. In addition, Tsubame can't be RCed, which is a huge flaw, and it doesn't nearly have as much horizontal range as ID or Hirensou. Itsuu is a viable option at times but isn't reliable.

2. I don't have much to say here except that I believe ID + Ragna's backstep is better than Origins + Mu's Backstep, because ID is considerably better than Origins, and because Mu's backstep is less significant. However, I disagree with your idea that barrier guarding benefits Mu more Ragna. The barrier pushback usually results in the opponent being at a mid-range that is more suited for Ragna's 5B than Mu's 5C. Mu's 5C compensates for its relatively longer start up with longer range (similar to Ragna's 5C) and also passively benefits in neutral from 6C covering the range outside of it. These advantages don't really materialize after barrier blocking because the opponent will be closer than the optimal range for Mu, which is usually outside of her 5C range or further.

3. Well, we both agree that the extra primer is a disadvantage, but not that significant, so I'll leave that point alone. Regarding your point on Tager - he suffers big disadvantages that nobody else does, and I think Xie's post explains it well enough, so I won't elaborate more.

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Question: While I'm aware that tiers are not set in stone, do you believe that the tiers will shift by a good margin over the course of Extend's Lifespan? If I remember correctly early CS1 tier lists had Ragna on top due to his high damage output among other things, he was later moved to high/mid due to his telegraphed mixup options and his inability to stay in. It's my impression that both Ragna and Hakumen may drop, though not by much, due to poor pressure options even if their neutral game is really good. At the same time I would assume that characters who can open up their opponents better than Ragna and Hakumen may rise once players learn ragna/hakumen pressure.

i agree with this. if i remember correctly (please correct me if im wrong) when cs2 was released, platinum was rated low a tier or high b tier. but as the game progressed, they said she was a bad character (again correct me if im wrong i might be thinking of someone else) and she was put lower on the tier list. with that said i think litchi might move higher as extend continues to unfold as from what ive seen she still has good mix up options and oki even though she lacks damage.

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1. It isn't always a problem but its disadvantages surface more often than you think. Since you brought up pressure strings, I'll use two such situations as examples to illustrate my point. A standard Ragna blockstring of 5B 5C Dead Spike will lose to Inferno Divider, but Tsunugui will lose because of Dead Spike's disjointed hitbox. Tsunugui won't work against Jin's air ice swords either. For example, a blockstring such 2B 5B 5C jump cancel j.236D to bait anti airs will work against Tsunugui as well, but Inferno Divider will beat anything Jin does except barrier block. So there are several situations where ID works and Tsunugui doesn't.

The point about Litchi is another topic, but she does suffer from requiring staff to be held. In addition, Tsubame can't be RCed, which is a huge flaw, and it doesn't nearly have as much horizontal range as ID or Hirensou. Itsuu is a viable option at times but isn't reliable.

2. I don't have much to say here except that I believe ID + Ragna's backstep is better than Origins + Mu's Backstep, because ID is considerably better than Origins, and because Mu's backstep is less significant. However, I disagree with your idea that barrier guarding benefits Mu more Ragna. The barrier pushback usually results in the opponent being at a mid-range that is more suited for Ragna's 5B than Mu's 5C. Mu's 5C compensates for its relatively longer start up with longer range (similar to Ragna's 5C) and also passively benefits in neutral from 6C covering the range outside of it. These advantages don't really materialize after barrier blocking because the opponent will be closer than the optimal range for Mu, which is usually outside of her 5C range or further.

3. Well, we both agree that the extra primer is a disadvantage, but not that significant, so I'll leave that point alone. Regarding your point on Tager - he suffers big disadvantages that nobody else does, and I think Xie's post explains it well enough, so I won't elaborate more.

1.Seeing that we are still in the subject of hitboxes, ragna's ID is vulnerable to moves that have lowered hitboxes at close range. Because ID tend to whiff alot on them while Tsugunui can beat those. ID is not flawless against every pressure string itself. So i don't think that alone makes Ragna's defence viability into S+.

Also as for your dead spike example, it depends on the spacing. Because ID can lose and Tsugunui can win against deadspike depending on the range when deadspike was thrown out.

2.Personally i think the pushblock benefits probably mu more, because ragna can still fight decenty at close range while mu is at her weakest.After the barrier pushback, it gives her time to setup steins or create more room by moving away like backdashing or backwards airdashing or by using an arrow of heavens. Mu does not have to throw out her 5c, which has 12f startup.

3 -

Edited by bakahyl

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1.Seeing that we are still in the subject of hitboxes, ragna's ID is vulnerable to moves that have lowered hitboxes at close range. Because ID tend to whiff alot on them while Tsugunui can beat those. ID is not flawless against every pressure string itself. So i don't think that alone makes Ragna's defence viability into S+.

Also as for your dead spike example, it depends on the spacing. Because ID can lose and Tsugunui can win against deadspike depending on the range when deadspike was thrown out.

2.Personally i think the pushblock benefits probably mu more, because ragna can still fight decenty at close range while mu is at her weakest.After the barrier pushback, it gives her time to setup steins or create more room by moving away like backdashing or backwards airdashing or by using an arrow of heavens. Mu does not have to throw out her 5c, which has 12f startup.

3 -

1. Let's look at the hitboxes. http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna/623C_1.html http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/623C.html

As you can see, ID's hitbox does cover the bottom half of his body as well, so there is no way to low profile it. I'd need you to give some examples of moves that ID whiffs on. It's possible to space certain moves that they clash with ID, but Tsunugui will clash as well in such situations, so that's no advantage to Tsunugui. Similarly, I can think of no spacing where ID will lose to DS with Tsunugui winning, so I'd need more elaboration on that too.

2. For most strings, the distance remains incredibly dangerous for Mu to set-up steins or Habaya, even when instant barriered. Retreating can also cause her to lose space and she does not gain the initiative. In other words, she has no real good option at that range, which only makes sense since that is not her best range. This is not at all comparable to Ragna who can just stick out 5B and either land a counter hit or at least force the opponent to block most of the time, smoothly transitioning from defense to offense. Yes, Mu appreciates being pressured less than Ragna, but doesn't that just prove that she is weaker defensively?

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1. Let's look at the hitboxes. http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/ragna/623C_1.html http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/623C.html

As you can see, ID's hitbox does cover the bottom half of his body as well, so there is no way to low profile it. I'd need you to give some examples of moves that ID whiffs on. It's possible to space certain moves that they clash with ID, but Tsunugui will clash as well in such situations, so that's no advantage to Tsunugui. Similarly, I can think of no spacing where ID will lose to DS with Tsunugui winning, so I'd need more elaboration on that too.

2. For most strings, the distance remains incredibly dangerous for Mu to set-up steins or Habaya, even when instant barriered. Retreating can also cause her to lose space and she does not gain the initiative. In other words, she has no real good option at that range, which only makes sense since that is not her best range. This is not at all comparable to Ragna who can just stick out 5B and either land a counter hit or at least force the opponent to block most of the time, smoothly transitioning from defense to offense. Yes, Mu appreciates being pressured less than Ragna, but doesn't that just prove that she is weaker defensively?

1. Funny , i have been avoiding inferno divider with mu's 2b in lot's of cases even on wakeup ID (Cor or any Mu player can confirm that). I never said that tsugunui will always beat out dead spike, while id will lose. But you were making it look like that deadspike will always beat Tsugunui, while ID will always hit the deadspike user. I was only pointing out that flaw of your statement by using spacing.

2. I am only saying that as an example of instant barrier used as a criteria for defence if you look what's written for valkenheyn. Mu and ragna are both excellent at mid range neutral as Mu has longer reach normals and projectiles and ragna has faster but slightly less reach normals. But let not compare fighting those 2 against eachother. In most battles, the pushback does give her more than enough space to beat many other characters who lack fast long range attacks (exception are the characters who are classified equally or higher in the neutral viability).

But i was only saying that Mu benefits more from the pushback, because she can't fight at close range that well as many other characters due either slower normals or short reach normals.

Edited by bakahyl

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