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Xie

BBCS Extend Tier List Thread

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The point about Litchi is another topic, but she does suffer from requiring staff to be held. In addition, Tsubame can't be RCed, which is a huge flaw, and it doesn't nearly have as much horizontal range as ID or Hirensou. Itsuu is a viable option at times but isn't reliable.

Are you sure about this? I was pretty sure that tsubame had the biggest horizontal hitbox out of all the dps in the game. (sorry for posting out of format)

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In the current assessment, the main difference between the two character on defense is subtle, but add up to a lost rank overal for Mu. Remember, defensive viability is not only the options you have, but also how they contribute to your ability to escape or create opportunities to go back in.

1) Ragna's normals are a lot better for changing the momentum of a particular situation, allowing him to better defend himself against slightly minus attacks to completely neutral attacks. For example, vs Litchi's 6D[m] on IB, Ragna actually has 2a for a viability choice, but Mu does not. I would say Ragna is above average in this category, whereas Mu is below average.

2) Though about equal in strength, Ragna's system defenses are much better at creating escape or momentum reversal options than Mu. This is kind of a combination of a lot of factors at work, but in general, Ragna upon a successful system defense escape returns to either neutral or slight advantage, whereas Mu is more likely to return to neutral or slight disadvantage. This is a product of how Mu's backstep works (covers long distance, but relatively long recovery) versus Ragna's (covers medium distance, has medium recovery). For example, if you backstep out of a normal throw, most of the time, Ragna will recover around the same speed as the opponent, whereas Mu will recover slightly later than the opponent. There are other factors at work here (Mu's successful jump out of a throw versus Ragnas, how they fair in certain instant block situations, certain blockstring spacings), but overall Ragna one ups Mu here as well. I would say Ragna is around average in this category, whereas Mu is slghtly below average.

3) The strength of both Ragna and Mu's reversals (ID/Blood Kain vs Tsunugui) are very strong, with Tsunugui being stronger in some situations and Inferno Divider being stronger in others, but the real charm of Inferno Divider is that it provides a complete momentum reversal on hit, regardless of hit, whereas Tsunugui is much more situational as to what it gives Mu on a successful hit. This lowers the passive strength of Mu's DP, as an opponent is not as afraid of taking a Tsunugui versus an Inferno Divider. I would say they are both extremely above average in this category, but the opponent's passive respect of Ragna's DP is far greater than Mu's.

All in all, I personally feel that these combined factors put Mu's defense lower than Ragna's. I could see the case for raising this parameter. Either way, both sides have made good arguments, so greater scrutiny may be necessary. Keep it up folks!

Answer: @Everyone who asked I added a Versaility and Complexity values for Jin. As to why they were not there before, I just forgot. Amusingly, he is the only character to receive a + in either category.

Tsubame Gaeshi has the longest horizontal range in the game given enough time, but is relatively slow speed for its distance. I would guess it reaches Hirensou length it around frame 15-16. But yeah, it's more of an issue of not being able to RC it and not being able to do it again if it fails.

Didn't really have time to discuss some things brought up in the thread. Oh well, I really need to finish the brief write-ups first.

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1. Funny , i have been avoiding inferno divider with mu's 2b in lot's of cases even on wakeup ID (Cor or any Mu player can confirm that). I never said that tsugunui will always beat out dead spike, while id will lose. But you were making it look like that deadspike will always beat Tsugunui, while ID will always hit the deadspike user. I was only pointing out that flaw of your statement by using spacing.

2. I am only saying that as an example of instant barrier used as a criteria for defence if you look what's written for valkenheyn. Mu and ragna are both excellent at mid range neutral as Mu has longer reach normals and projectiles and ragna has faster but slightly less reach normals. But let not compare fighting those 2 against eachother. In most battles, the pushback does give her more than enough space to beat many other characters who lack fast long range attacks (exception are the characters who are classified equally or higher in the neutral viability).

But i was only saying that Mu benefits more from the pushback, because she can't fight at close range that well as many other characters due either slower normals or short reach normals.

1. Well, if you look at the hitbox http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/frameData/mu/2B.html the reason that's doable is because the 2B is spaced such that only the red box touches Ragna. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that in such a case, Tsunugui will also clash, so again, no advantage to Tsunugui. As for the Dead Spike point - I misunderstood what you meant initially. I understand that DS can be spaced such that both ID and Tsunugui will lose, and cases where both will win, but my point is that there is no situation where Tsunugui will win and ID loses, whereas the reverse situation exists, so ID is a better option in such a scenario. I think we can leave this particular point about DS alone though, because it seems like we understand each other already.

2. This is where we disagree, because I find that Mu is usually not in the advantage in the usual range after barrier pushback, whereas Ragna is. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue this with words, so I'll be back tomorrow (maybe earlier) with some video evidence to prove my point. And if the videos show that you're right, I'll gladly concede this point.

Are you sure about this? I was pretty sure that tsubame had the biggest horizontal hitbox out of all the dps in the game. (sorry for posting out of format)

EDIT: Ok, got my facts wrong on Tsubame. I concede the point to Huey and bakahyl.

Edited by Fluck

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Question: Are you going to finish populating your writeups on the cast? I find them interesting and insightful

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Answer: @Airk: Finished it up today. There were a few minor updates as I had gone through and written the entire thing, but most ranks only shifted maybe a + or a - at most. In the coming future, there will likely be a lot of updates and discussion to be had, as GodsGarden and BBR both make for a good case studies, the frame data is mostly out, and the US console release is around the corner. I fully intend to lead a discussion on parameter and overall strength just after Blue Revo prelims end in Japan and the US. For the record, a lot of what I have written was still on my 1/23rd mindset, which is before I watched GodsGarden. For the most part, though I've already seen a great deal of new technology up until that point, I am still waiting to see how they are applied in matches specifically before talking about moving anyone up or down. For example, Rachel just recently got a new combo she can do when she lands any level 2 j2c, but I'd like to see how available that combo is on a practical level before we increase her reward parameter.

Edited by Xie

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Tsubaki

Neutral Viability:Her abilities greatly increase by expending Install Meter, as 236D, j236D, and 214D are all very powerful tools in neutral, but because they cost Install Meter, which cannot be easily obtained in neutral, it is difficult to say that her neutral game is strong if they are reliant on these.

Question: Why do you believe that j.236D is a powerful tool in neutral? I am very curious because I do not believe that it is a powerful tool case as it has very little reward for the high risk that Tsubaki is vulnerable until she touches the ground, and if she decides to followup, it can be easily AA'd. I don't believe a Tsubaki player would find much benefit from using this at neutral.

Offensive Viability:She has access to an unblockable attack and a relatively safe overhead

I do not believe that her overhead is relatively safe because it is -9 which makes it punishable if it is not followed up. It also has a very slow startup which is very easy to react to, and it can be outpoked of. She can even be thrown out of it. I feel that the real benefit of 6A is that it looks similar to the animation of her 6B, and is thus why many players get hit by 6B. 6A can't even be used as a FC because 3C, 5C, and 6C are much more superior options. I believe her offensive viability has it's limits.

Defensive Viability: With install meter, Tsubaki gains a real DP and access to follow ups that can potentially make the DP safe. Even though it is not always available, the existence of a potential D dp makes the A dp passively more useful, giving Tsubaki potential options on defense.

I disagree that with stock Tsubaki gains a real DP and access to follow ups that can potentially make the DP safe. It still possesses the same flaws as 623A, even with the extra 1 invincibility frame. Though not a projectile, players can still jump over the DP and throw her out of out, thus rendering it's use in such situations. In addition, jumping attacks can still beat it, and certain attacks such as Ragna's GH beat it clean. Furthermore, both followup options are very unsafe for Tsubaki. Following up with j.214D is punishable on block, using j.236D alone leaves Tsubaki vulnerable until she touches the ground, which again leaves her open. Using j.236D - j.214D can be AA'd before she hits. The only advantage it may have is that it can disrupt a way in which an opponent can retaliate, and even then it is not effective.

Edited by Kiba

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Attempted Answer: @Kiba: She does acquire a "real" DP from a reversal standpoint, in that she no longer has to worry about the DP trading, assuming it hits on the first active frame. While that is something of a large assumption, it does produce a marked improvement over the A DP. That said, it is still the weakest move of its type in the game, since even the Corona Upper (Makoto) has -two- invulnerable active frames.

I am also very curious about the neutral use of j.236D.

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Answer: @Kiba/Airk A medium height j236D from a single jump at mid range is largely safe against a good number of the cast, as not every character has a form of mobility that can easily circumvent its trajectory, especially if they were not specifically looking for it. The only clean way to beat out this move is to use an air-to-air as the attack is coming out, as the orb will protect Tsubaki from most characters. Because this maneuver can prevent said characters from moving as they wish, it can help Tsubaki dictate the initial pace of the spacing battle that is to come.

Regarding Tsubaki's 6A, safeness is definitely a relative term, but as an overhead it is on par with most moves that I would consider safe. Given that it cancels into 5C gaplessly and 5C can be either charge canceled or canceled further into other normals, I would consider it to be relatively safe, especially compared to moves that are either known to be unsafe (Ragna's Gauntlet Hades) or automatically cause momentum loss (Lambda's Crescent Saber). The startup is slightly slower than most, but it can commonly be canceled into from level 3 moves, which actually makes it safer than most characters who gatling a 24 frame overhead from a close range level 2 move (Ragna's 2b -> 6b for example), so again, I would say that it is relatively safe there as well. Of course, if you consider moves like Ragna's 6b or Rachel's 4b to be unsafe, I don't really have any argument there.

Regarding Tsubaki's choice of DP attacks, I believe that 623D is indeed a real dp, given it cannot trade as a reversal unless it does not hit on the first active frame. The attack literally cannot lose if it makes contact so long as it is timed correctly or the opponent is otherwise invulnerable. Furthermore, while there are methods of canceling and specific ways to bait out her DP (such as running iading or jump airthrow for okizeme), most of them are direct call-outs, versus something that can be done at the same time as pressuring or doing okizeme. Most reversal attacks have a specific kind of weakness in terms of hitbox or countermeasures, so it is not really a specific weakness of the move itself, but of DPs of in general.

Regarding Tsubaki's DP follow up attacks, while it is true that they are not safe in many situations, there are many situations where they can make a DP safe where they would otherwise not be at all. Consider when an opponent jump cancels away to bait a dp and ends up air barrier blocking 623D, if j214D->236D is able to come out, the additional blockstun incurred from an air barrier can make it challenging (and risky) to try and anti-air the attack. For most other characters, the only option would be a Rapid Cancel, but by simply having the option, it can make it more difficult for opponents to properly punish in every given situation and can cause opponents to heistate.

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I contest your notion that a slower move gatlinged from a level 3 attack is as safe as a faster move gatlinged from a level 2 attack. This might be true if Tsubaki's overhead had more range and therefore required something slower than a 2A to counter, but as it is, the size of the gap between the "lead in" attack and the overhead is the same, but the opponent has two more frames of time in which to start mashing 2A, or simply to shift their guard to high - the fact that they are in guardstun for these two frames is largely irrelevant, because they don't need to start their action in them, they just need to be ready to start their action at that point.

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I recontest that notion, as the time differential between the lead in attack and overhead is actually not the same between a level 2 and a level 3 attack. The blockstun of a level 3 is attack is actually 3f greater than that of a level 2 move, giving the opponent 1f less time to abare correctly in the Ragna vs Tsubaki example. Strictly speaking, I feel this makes the move safer, but if you feel that 2f more to react vs 1f less gap to input makes a move less safe, that's a perfectly valid argument. Making a further empirical argument for or against is difficult here, as it starts to become a subtle vs speed debate, which players will tend to have different experiences with. For example, Zantetsu is one of the fastest ground overheads, but is largely considered by many to be one of the easier ones to block, compared to a dash Tsubaki (the move), which is 2~3f slower on average but much more difficult to block.

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I concede the point, as I was forgetting that the difference between Level 2 and Level 3 is different than the difference between level 3 and level 4.

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@Xie: Let me start off by saying that this is a very excellent thread and thanks for all the hard work. That being said, I have a question for you: Which do you think is a more accurate way of creating a tier list: character analysis or by a matchup chart?

From my understanding, tier lists are generated in one of two ways: 1) character potential and analysis or 2) matchup chart. For the most part, creating a tier list for a game using one method will result in a similar tier list created using the other method; however, it is highly likely that there will be some differences somewhere in the tier list.

Both methods have potential flaws. By analyzing character potential, it requires people's opinions to be put together to attempt to form a consensus. It is not only difficult to do so, but it also isn't easy to compare multiple characters when each character of the cast has a unique style of gameplay (strictly BB speaking). When using a matchup chart, certain characters results can be skewed in the case of a really bad/good matchup. BB has a relatively small cast of characters, so these skewed results can affect a character's position in the tier list more.

Personally speaking, I've always been a fan of matchup chart based tier lists. While they may lack information, well made tier lists generated this way critically evaluate every matchup. What I especially like is the fact that I can put a number on things and see key differences more easily.

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Answer: @MysticD Hard to say, but I feel that it depends largely on what you are trying to illustrate by creating a list. For a character rank list, you can illustrate things like options, abilities, risk/reward power and put characters in order as such. For matchup charts, you can illustrate things like how easy some matchups are or how limited characters are against each other in terms of options.

In a game like BlazBlue, where you have a numerous options and committing is more of an issue of safety rather than strength, it is difficult to properly assess how good or bad a matchup is. Contrast this to a game like Super Turbo, where options are extremely limited, beat each other out very cleanly, and contains far more frame-tight guessing, it is far easier to analyze risk/reward and how it pertains to the matchup.

That said, it is my opinion that a look at overall character strength is probably the most accurate way to represent division between character strength in BlazBlue. Matchup diagrams can certainly be insightful, however.

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I disagree with the current assessment below and I disagree with Tager's complexity being graded at the letter C.

Current Assessment: A Rank - Tager has lots of trouble getting in, but once in, he can win by forcing an opponent to make only a few mistakes.

My reason for disagreeing: I believe that the new Tager, this time around, is about much more than sitting back and forcing you to make a few mistakes just by getting in. He is now much more of a threat now because he can do damage and with his current heat gain he can now rc mid combo and make it viable for traps and such. You see the complexity of a Tager this time around is definitely centered around whom you are facing. Though he is a grappler he isn't as simple anymore and with the new technology that is being found out about EX Tager he is now much more complex. I think he should be rated a B+ or B-. If you disagree with this tell me your reasons please.

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Litchi

Reward Assessment: B+ Rank - Litchi's damage and heat gain are fairly unstable, as the majority of her good damage and corner carry coming from situational hits. However, her ability to do a corner combo from further distances is above average. Her corner damage is slightly below average without specific starters, but the okizeme that results from it can deal big damage. Her ability increase her damage output with heat is somewhat limited.

Neutral Viability: A- Rank - Litchi has an extremely wide variety of spacing and projectile tools, but they each have unique weaknesses that allow certain opponents to take advantage of them. The overall effectiveness of a her tools is extremely variable due to their nature, but overall, in neutral situations she is very strong against characters who rely on close to mid range combat, somewhat limited against fast projectile characters, weak against characters with strong defensive spacing tools, very strong against setup or limited mobility characters, and approximately even with movement based characters.

Offensive Viability: A- Rank - Litchi's blockstrings and mixups are fairly varied, but rely largely on the player to mix up staff setting and releasing in a way to obscure redashes and mixup attempts. When cornering her opponent, her okizeme options are among the best in the entire game with numerous viable choices, but largely lacks the same ability when midscreen. Still, the overwhelming power of her corner mixup with meter can easily cause a huge momentum shift and allow her to make big comebacks.

Defensive Viability: B- Rank - Litchi's backstep is special in that it can be done twice, giving it additional invincibility at a point where most backsteps would be still in their vulnerable state, making it a fairly useful defensive tool. Tsubame Gaeshi is one of the best DP type moves in the game in terms of size and speed, but cannot be Rapid Canceled, is not always available, and cannot be done twice in a row.

Versatility: S Rank

Complexity: B Rank

Current Assessment: B Rank - Litchi is a character huge of unique spacing number tools with and without her staff.

I believe that Litchi's Reward and/or Offensive ranks should be higher based on the following reasoning. Although her damage may be average at around 2-3k midscreen at most, the okizeme she gets from it is very strong. She most definitely does not need situational hits in order to do at least a good corner carry into okizeme where she is strongest and almost always is able to build heat for a distortion for okizeme. The fact that her 13 Orphans and Daisharin both cover her sprite and are uninterruptable also help with her mixups as you physically can't see what the character is doing half the time and it's suicide to try any type of DP move even if you manage to touch her.

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Is Lambda really listed as S tier in that latest tier list, or is that a mistake or something? It's just out of left field.

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Answer @MacChaos: According to Satoshi, yes. I'll ask for clarification at some point, but it almost makes sense at face value to me, given that she is actually even or better against the other characters he classifies as S tier, save for Taokaka.

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Question: What provides any credibility for the tier lists posted at the beginning of JBBS rank threads? I think it's just some random dude, but he happens to be Japanese.

see JBBS 4/6/2012 List.

S Hakumen Ragna Valkenhyne Taokaka

A Carl Hazama Platinum Litchi Mu Noel Bang Arakune Relius

B All others (Makoto Tager Lambda Jin Rachel Tsubaki)

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