[CSE] Rachel Alucard Frame Data

[KayEff]

have fun.

[gli]

Quick glance confirms known things such as:

- reduced damage overall

- lv3 j.2C breaks 1 primer, lv2 no longer primer breaks.

- removal of 6B jump-cancel

Also according to that 2A is listed as a low? Is that an error or is it actually a low in Extend (i.e can someone test this)?

EDIT: Nope, that's an error. Still hits mid (of course).

Also don't forget that 2A is limited in gatling use. Only 3 uses are allowed.

[shtkn]

extend frame data is on the wiki. please correct an typos i might have introduced

also, gatling table is still from cs2, can someone fix that? i don't know extend rachel's gatlings

[Kronikhall]

<3 ty

[Sakaku]

also, gatling table is still from cs2, can someone fix that? i don't know extend rachel's gatlings

The only thing I (we) can confirm that's changed is 4B only once per gatling and 6B not jc-able anymore.

Just zipped through the frame data, either I'm comparing two wrong tables or she got damage buffs on some normals. V:

Errors:

(?) One sylpheed stock apparently has 10000 units. That doesn't make sense if you compare it to wind regen.

- 2B does 480 damage

(?) Tempest Dalia should be Tempest Dahlia (it's also wrong in the CS2 frame data)

Quick overview of the changes, not everything double checked (without guard primer taking info).

[Normal:]

[Change]: [Value CSE] ([Value CS2])

5A:

+Damage: 300x2 (150x2)

+Heat gain: 124x2 (62)

2A:

+Damage: 300 (200)

+Heat gain: 124

6A:

Jason.D's post

2B:

+Damage: 480 (400)

+Heat gain: 198 (165)

6B:

-P1: 75 (85)

-Not jc-able anymore

5C:

+Damage: 750 (650)

+Heat gain: 310 (269)

5CC:

+Damage: 850 (750)

+Heat gain: 351 (310)

2C:

-P1: 50 (80)

-Guard point after frame 5 (3)

6C:

+Damage: 241 (234)

+Heat gain: 99 (96)

-P2: 60 once (70 once)

-Attribute: H (BH)

+attack power and gauge gain prorates by 93% per hit

(attack power and gauge gain prorates by 90% per hit)

Repeat proration removed (?) or info is missing.

3C:

+Damage: 300x3 (220x3)

+Heat gain: 124x3 (91x3)

3[C]:

+Damage: 300x7 (220x7)

+Heat gain: 124x7 (91x7)

j.B:

+Damage: 460 (360)

+Heat gain: 190 (149)

j.2C level 1/2/3:

new: air special cancelable on hit

Counter assault

-Frame adv.: -20 (-17)

Backthrow

-Recovery: 24 (18)

236A:

-P1: 70 (80)

j.214C:

+Frame adv. 25 (24)

Sooo, all these damage buffs are overshadowed by the character combo rate change? V:

[Chazmobile]

Quick question will the supposed recovery increase on back throw make some followups harder/impossible?

[Sakaku]

I haven't even noticed the recovery got higher lol. You can still do 7D dash 5B without any problems.

[Kuuhaku]

Sooo, all these damage buffs are overshadowed by the character combo rate change? V:

Pretty much combo rate change balances out the damage buffs. Which is I guess why Rachel's damage remains overall slightly lower. It's kind of surprising that they chose to go that route to balance her damage though.

I haven't even noticed the recovery got higher lol. You can still do 7D dash 5B without any problems.

If that's the case, then it might just be referring to on whiff.

2C P1 makes me laugh.

[Sakaku]

If that's the case, then it might just be referring to on whiff.

I think they use the same animation for both throws.

Either it's an error or they really increased the recovery. I'll compare CS2 and CSE backthrow once I'm at home.

edit: Seems like an error.

Both whiff and hit have the same recovery in CS2 and CSE.

[Jason D.]

The biggest change I noticed was that 6A was apparently changed from "full guard point against anything that touches her upper body" to "guard point against head attribute throughout her entire body." I tested this out briefly on Friday, and CSEX Rachel can indeed guard point a very low Ragna j.C and a Hakumen j.2C (which was previously impossible). So if this is correct, then this is very much a good thing, as she can now anti-air anything without having to worry about the opponent's height. And moves like Valkenhayn's j.C are no longer unstoppable.

Though on the other side, this may mean that her 6A can no longer beat non-air things that it used to. If I'm not mistaken, a move having HBF attribute would still hit the guard point, as long as it has an H in there somewhere. (If not, that would really suck.) But the greatly less-common BF property moves probably can't be stopped at all.

I'm also not sure how this would affect projectiles. There's a fair chance this means that she can't block a projectile with 6A anymore (aside from literally killing some projectiles with the punch itself.) If anyone out there with Extend wants to test these things for sure, you probably should!

[Sakaku]

You are unfortunately correct. 6A doesn't eat projectiles anymore (tested with Lobelias, Ice Swords and Ada projectile). As soon as Nago touches the projectile, she gets CH'd. It isn't much of a drawback if you ask me, except maybe for the Jin MU. We still have 5B, even though it's harder to space.

As for guard pointing BF attribute moves, she also gets CH'd.

The sad thing is, that's also the case for HB/F attribute moves.. It won't guard point against Ragnas 5B(HB) or Valks 5C(HB), no matter how often I try. Things like Noel's 2D(HP) will still be guard pointed though.

Thankfully your AA assumption is correct too. I guard pointed j.C (Ragna), j.2C (Haku), j.C (Valk) and j.2C (Mu) without having to care where I hit them.

[gli]

Nice find guys. How useful is that guardpoint against Haku j.2C? Is it still worth trying to AA Haku out of IAD j.2C or is that still highly unfavorable for Rachel?

[Jason D.]

Hmm. Interesting. Well huge thanks for testing this out, Sakaku. You've definitely been a big help, for this and especially elsewhere.

So to sum this up for everyone, her 6A can now stop any aerial move if you time it correctly, which means that people like Hakumen can no longer jump in all day long using the power of j.2C. (And yes, it's totally worth it to anti-air him now, assuming you don't mess up your guard point window.) This adds pretty strongly to her anti-air game, and I've actually wanted this change for a long time now.

And on the negative side, now the guard point only works against moves that ONLY have the H property. It will not auto-guard an HB, HBF, or HF, because it has a B or F in there also. Apparently it does work on HP moves, so being a projectile doesn't matter to the 6A, but most projectiles are HBP, so they'll break through the guard point because of the B anyway.

So for a general rule on when NOT to use 6A in CSEX: Do not use it to beat projectiles, and do not use it when your opponent is doing a ground attack. (Well, it should beat standing overheads, but if you do that you're just trollin'...)

[kotokot]

FUCK YEAH I CAN ANTIAIR THIS FUCKING DOG!

[Fluck]

Actually, I think you'll find most overheads have HB property, so 6A will not work.

[kotokot]

Actually, I think you'll find most overheads have HB property, so 6A will not work.

eh? Are you sure?

6C H (but 6A is pretty bad in this case, 5A/5B it)

j.C H (NO SAFEJUMPS BITCH LIKE ON OTHER AA, HITSTOP+HUGE HITBOX WILL CRUSH VALK)

[w]j.A H (can sometimes work, but 2A/5B/236A are better in most cases)

[w]j.B H (who does use it?)

[Sakaku]

Valkenhayn's 6C actually has HB attribute. Every grounded overhead has at least a B or a F attribute I believe, so Fluck should be right.

[KayEff]

updated link to correct typos

[Deikan]

Sorry to sound noobish but what does HB mean?

[kirbster]

Head and body attribute. F is for foot. It's explained here : http://www.dustloop.com/guides/bbcs2/systemGuide/systemGuide.html#attackAttribute

[shtkn]

the guide has also been ported to the wiki so you could try clicking around there as well. also the headers in the frame data tables have links straight to the applicable areas in the system guide