[CSE] Relius Clover - General Discussion "American Frame Traps"

[VonFox]

From what I can remember off the top of my head , and type up before class:

We talked about neutral for a while. Controlling space with 5B/2B2C/situational 6C. How to get in with 214A close-ish range, or add a 6D if farther away, since 214A from even mid-ish range is unsafe. Why 214A is good at nullifying projectiles, and can be better than 214B for getting in on zoners.

Spent quite a while on oki. Stuff like 6D after j.214B enders to catch back rolls, risk of led led to bait DPs if they think of wakeup throw. Spent quite a while experimenting with Kaigu's 4D -> run under 214C in the corner, and found that everyone but Tager can just roll out of the corner. If they don't roll out though, its pretty solid mixup, lets you get them back in the corner with an ambiguous block on the 214C. Can led ley to pass through or just jump over. Jumping over might let you catch the forward roll with J.B or J.C, but I had to leave my computer for a bit here and missed this part.

And then it was combo time. BNBs like the midscreen airdash, and the el-cheapo TK corner combo. Kaigu posting swag/troll combos that I unfortunately didn't get a chance to write down. Then St1ck started talking about combo theory, although I dont think we got any farther than what you posted in the chat. THat's about when I had to leave, so that's all I saw.

That's probably very incomplete, but its what I can remember and type up before class starts lol. I'll add stuff later if I remember anything notable, and nobody else beats me to it.

[STenSatsu]

That was a good rundown Fox. We also saw crouching ch 214a links into 6d. Also how near the corner you could j.236c and link a 4d when you need There was a link to a ridiculous corner carry combo in stream chat that will probably come up when we do vids. J/K, thanks browser history! (and kaigu for doing the youtube legwork lol.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3pjoFH5-E&t=1h09m17s

[VonFox]

Oh yeah, that combo was pretty cool. I even favourited the video but forgot to post it lol.

[St1ckBuG]

Neutral

-Pokes/Specia used for approaching: 5B, 2B, 236A > 6D, 214A > 2D, 5B/2B > 6D

-Anti-Airs: 2C, 6B (situational), 4D (situational)

-Pokes/Specials used for zoning: 214A > 6D/j3D/j6D

Pressure/Mixup

It's very important to understand that with Relius (and fighting games in general), most of the time you will be taking risks to mix someone up during pressure. It is important to realize that there is usually and answer to get out of every situation. For Relius this is true for all of his mix-up. You will be leaving gaps in your pressure in order to do high/low and side-swap. The reason this needs to be understood is because there is no 1 mix-up with Relius that will be safe. There will be times when you take a risk and it doesn't work out in your favor. Get over it. Do not try and break down the game so much that you're theory fighting with yourself. Know what your options are, cycle through them in a way you feel comfortable with, and depending on who you're playing against choose your options that you feel suits the situation. It's important to test your options in pressure and know in advanced what beats them.

Things you should always test pressure/mixup against:

-Mashing

-IB Reversal/DP/Super

-Chicken Blocking (holding up back)

-Backdash

-Character specifics

Take this opportunity to make yourself a smarter and better player. Fighting games are full of double-blind situations, random guessing, and sometimes illogical decisions. Shit happens. Try not to dwell on negative outcomes too much. Understand that there are answers to your options. Plan ahead. If something happens for the first time during a match and you lose then remember what happened and try to find an answer to it later. This is what good players do and it's not difficult! This is why we have practice mode!

With that being said there are a lot of ways you can branch out Relius pressure and mix-up. Most of the time you will be starting your pressure with the neutral pokes used for approaching listed above. From there you will branch out into whatever option you feel like running at the moment. Before you make your decision you should be conscious of your opponents meter and burst. A general blockstring would be something like this:

5B > 6D > 5B > 3C > 2D > Jump > Low Airdash jB > jC or land 2B

This is very simple and straight forward high/low mixup that is tight for the most part. If the airdash jB > jC is done to late you will be open to get hit. If you do the land 2B then you will also be open to get hit. It's important to note here that if the opponent gets hit by 3C then the 2D will combo and you will be able to land after your jump and do 6B > air combo. This is what we call an auto-hitconfirm: it covers both pressure and is very easy to hitconfirm.

This is just an example of what you can do. It's up to you to come up with ideas and test them out yourself. Know what works and what doesn't. You want pressure and mix-up options that can beat options the list above. Run your option you feel will work and understand the risk that comes with it.

Okizeme

Relius has a lot of Oki options that, when combined, can cover almost all of your opponents options when getting up. Most of the time you want to end with j214B mid-screen and 3C in the corner.

Mid-screen after j236C > j214B

-dash 5B (beats tech roll forward)

-doll 6D (beats tech roll back but will not meaty)

-doll 2D (keeps them in place after neutral tech and beats mashing)

-Flying jA or 4D can keep them in place after jumping, but nothing will 100% beat jump

Corner after 4D

-Walk back 3C > Neutral Jump Un-summon > falling jC (Beats forward roll out of the corner and at the right distances will safe-jump reversals. With forward jump you can meaty jC but it will lose to reversals.)

-Walk forward into the corner 3C > 214C (Beats back roll out of the corner but late neutral tech will dodge 214C.)

-Walk forward into the corner 214C > dash 236A or jump over (Really good ambiguous cross-up, destroys inputs and Relius cannot be thrown, loses to late neutral tech and roll out of the corner.)

-3C > 236C > 214C (Pushes you away from the corner at a distance that makes you safe against reversals and beats forward tech out of the corner. Good for baiting counter-assaults and bursts as well. Against Ragna/Tager/Hakumen you can hit them with a rising jC and the 214C will combo.)

These are just a few of the options you have for Oki. Know you options and what beats them. I'm sure some of the information I have listed doesn't cover absolutely everything. It's up to you to come up with different setups and test what wins and loses!!!

*****************************************************************

We didn't get very far on combos and we ended up not doing any videos. I think in 2 weeks I'll have another Symposium but we'll start with trying to figure out optimal combos and then get into match-up specific stuff. Everyone should be bookmarking good matches and you should write down the combos that you do so we can compare and share. See you all in 2 weeks!

[VonFox]

Wow, I must've left just before you guys finished up :D

Thanks again for doing all this st1ck, looking forward to the next one.

[U-Volt]

Thanks for the stream, St1ckbug! I learned a lot, and even took notes lol. I shall be in the lab for a lonnnngggg time tonight.

[Dusk Thanatos]

godlike post

Thanks a ton for that. I appreciate it so much.

Also, can someone test oki setups against Rachel wind teching? I remember seeing a Relius do 3C 236C 214C (which we think of as pretty safe) in a matchvid and the setup got raped by wind tech, so I feel wind tech is a serious concern in that matchup

[VonFox]

So I was playing around with Kaigu's 4D->run under -> 214C setup. I haven't had time to completely verify this, as I've just been kicked off my PS3, but after the Val Tus, you can definitely 2B to catch roll outs, and the doll will pull them back towards you with the rest of 214C. I'm not sure if you can get them back into the corner after this point, but you can still get a pretty beefy combo just because of the 214C starter.

But, to keep the mixup if they neutral tech, you need to dash 2B to get momentum, and then cancel with 236A to get the pass-through for the left/right mixup.

Oh, and I only got to try this on Carl before being kicked off, so char specifics might ruin it a bit. I'll play around with this again when I get time, but if someone else could check in the meantime that'd be cool.

Double Edit for clarity and new info.

[STenSatsu]

Hmm, think I'm gonna have to try dash into corner>meaty 2d and see if that works. If you can get it sandwich style the result might be interesting.

[VonFox]

I played around with that a bit too. 2D is much faster than 214C, so trying to hit at the same timing means you input the command much later, which means ignis has had time to start moving towards you. She seems to end up either in the corner with you, or right inside the opponent where the move completely wiffs, depending on how early/late you do 4D which controls how much time she has to move forwards. So I don't think you can get that sandwich you were looking for.

On the other hand, a sandwich with 2D would pull them away from you in the corner anyway, and I feel like 2D with her facing out catches roll outs better anyway.

Problem is, it feels harder to get a meaty timing with 2D. 214C's slow-ness kinda makes it do it for you. The other problem is that 2D is a much lower level attack, which combined with it having only 2 hits instead of 3, gives you less time to work with, and makes it harder to combo off of.

Still worth looking into though, I didn't spend much time on it lol.

EDIT: More experiments with run under 214C. If you use 5B instead of 2B it works much better. Not sure why I didn't try 5B before lol. If you catch the roll right away, all 3 doll hits connect, and you can just run under them (char specific? was testing on carl, maybe other ones are too fat, but he was fairly high off the ground, yet still 5C or 6B-able) and re-corner combo them. If you catch them late and only 1/2 doll hits connect, I feel like you can set up the side switch combo, but I still can't do that combo so I haven't tested it yet.

[STenSatsu]

So after some corner combo playing around I've got a better optimized combo than my previous damage combo. Not only does it do about 100 more damage but uses 1k less ignis lol.

starter>236c>214a>dash 2c>6c>4d>5c(2)>6b>sj or j.b>dj.bc>j.236c>j.214b>land 3c with optional 236c.

Tested it on almost everyone so far and it works on all except Makoto. Arakune is also absolute hell to time the 3c on so far though, bang is a tad tricky but much more doable than ara. Does like 3800 off throw for 3k ignis meter and gains 45+ heat. You can't safejump with the j.5d>fall j.c as well though and you don't get the 4d ender oki options. The only time this won't do more damage than the j.c>j.8d>dj.c variation is if it starts with a 6c or 4d. You can go for the 4d reset by doing 5c instead of 3c and then waiting a sec, should work on anything except neutral air tech. The timing is pretty weird at first and I can't really explain it. You want to use j.b if you catch them lower with 5c(2) and sj.b if you catch them higher. Then just do the dj.bc>j.236c>j.214b portion asap and you may need to wait a tad when you hit the ground for the 3c.

[Dusk Thanatos]

Wait, what?

j.214B>3C works?

What is this wizardry?

EDIT: With that link, I can get 3874 on Jin for 2k Ignis. 5b>5c(2)>236C>214a>6b>5C(2)>j.b>dj.bc>j.236c>j.214b>land 3c.

[TD]

its not wizardry lol, in fact it makes perfect sense. 5c works from j.214b (l forgot the frame data for 5c, its like 12 frames startup or something, idk. regardless, its more startup than 3c which is 9 frames.)

actually 3c being 9 frames is great since its his only grounded jcable move besides 5a. i've seen TORI do 5b 6d dash 3c jump 6d so that he can go right into the high/low mixup countless times.

[STenSatsu]

Wait, what?

j.214B>3C works?

What is this wizardry?

EDIT: With that link, I can get 3874 on Jin for 2k Ignis. 5b>5c(2)>236C>214a>6b>5C(2)>j.b>dj.bc>j.236c>j.214b>land 3c.

Ya, I had tried the link before but had a massive problem getting it to work. Then I went back and tried some variations and got this down. I like your variation, though to be honest I think I'd take the 100 less damage for the TK corner combo since I consider it more consistent and I like the 4d>3c ender the best so far. Going to try to find something that ends in 4d>3c for the same ignis that does close to my variation next I think. It's always nice to have that max damage combo in your back pocket though for different ignis meters. You can add the 236c after the 3c and it works fine as well. Actually, does 6b>5c>6b work? I don't have access to the game atm but now I'm thinking again lol.

[VonFox]

Yes, you can 6B 5C 6B.

[Kurushii]

On CH you can do 6B > 6B lol :P

[Toasty]

Does anyone know if 236D after a 3C ender will catch delay techs in particular? I only need to know if it will catch delay tech right now (the other techs don't really matter for this move right now), since I remember from around release I found that unblockable setup with 214D that beat everything EXCEPT delay tech and reversals. If 236D can be made to beat delay tech (or even reversals in some cases if Relius blocks), then it should allow for some type of unblockable mixup.

I'll test it later in the week along with a bunch of other stuff to make sure.

[VonFox]

You mean if they delay their tech to try to tech "through" 236D? Since all the would-be hits whiff, I guess all 32 active frames would stay out, at least until they block one, or get hit. Neutral tech has 32 invuln frames, so unless they're godlike it should catch it and make them block.

Or I messed up reading the frame data lol, but that's what I see when I look at it.

Can't test it right now so its all I can go off atm.

[FR05tB1t3 BOB]

Hey guys im actually gonna be playing in ShinSyn's tournament if anyone wants watch that and see how my Relius does :D

[Toasty]

Hey guys im actually gonna be playing in ShinSyn's tournament if anyone wants watch that and see how my Relius does :D

Good luck bro. Knowing Shin, he'll be recording it, but is someone streaming it too?

[FR05tB1t3 BOB]

im not sure but i know they were talking about it in that thread that Shin made for the tournament so whoevers streaming it would probably have said something in there, i won against LordPwnage and IIII Jin IIII so far so im doing pretty good

[Chazmobile]

Keep on rocking that Relius!

[FR05tB1t3 BOB]

Well i got bodied, but im glad i got as far as i did

[YukiBlue]

[Toasty]

I made some changes to the combo thread to show the reduced cost in Ignis gauge in some combos when Ignis is active as opposed to inactive. I also changed the font color for confirms/starters that can vary to red, and then added an explanation about it in the front post of that thread in case anyone misses this one.

I hope this makes things at least a little bit easier!