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DaiAndOh

[CSE] Bang vs. Tager

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5B is your best friend here, poke the fuck out of him, there's not much he can so anyways, his normals are short and slow, and you're too far to get grabbed, don't do this if your magnetized though, because then he can pull you into him, if he jumps and is above you, just run right under him and away, frkz is really good here, just watch out for atomic collider, and 2C, if you're magnetized and he's pressuring and raping you, just try to run away, then once you're demagnitized poke him again.

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This match has really awkward footsies sometimes and I pretty much always find myself crutching on 5B. It's really strong here since it's faster than pretty much all of his best pokes.

You need to be liberal in it's usage. But just don't get too predictable. Play it safe and whiff punish any dumb move he uses.

Respect the range of some of his moves (5D + 5C!) Because you (Well...I..) get counterhit by these moves a lot and it leads to really solid damage, especially if you get out-footsied by 5D.

Now.

Tager suffers from shit mobility. And no damage buff will ever change the fact he moves like shit. Bang on the other hand, moves like a London Commuter. So I reckon typical air shenanigans like j.4B and bumper setups should be used. (For real though. I condone bumper usage here.)

Biggest advice would be to just play the matchup like you did in CS2, except you just need to respect his options a bit (Or a lot) more now. You need to play with a lot of variety, all whilst keeping an ace up your sleeve (FRKZ...) For when you literally need that "HnK" comeback moment. But obviously, you know the risks.

You can airgrab stupid j.2C's, yet to my knowledge it beats 2D. Either block (IB!) or grab him if you feel the need.

Respect mashed MTW's because my swedish friend literally makes it look like a full on DP. And since he can get solid damage from a followup into GF. I'd recommend looking at his heat bar a lot more than your own.

Go to the Tager boards and download that Reset / Tech trap guide. Tager has a lot of new and confusing ways to take more of your health bar. I'd recommend delay-teching if you feel like some funky shit is going down because a lot of his setups such as (5A > 5B > 3C > AC Whiff > j.2C > 5B > 5C > 6A > 2C > AC Whiff > 720) Completely destroy neutral techs. But whatever, read up on it.

Last but not least. 3C Punish dumb Voltic Charges. Be a man and 6D obvious Spark bolts. show him a little more respect. And abuse your mobility to the absolute maximum.

DISCLAIMER:

These are just musings. Some stuff might be wrong. But whatever, hoped it helped at least someone.

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You can also 2c/3c clumsy charged 6As by Tager for good damage+corner carry.

Also, get FRKZ, win round.

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I think Bumpers shouldn't be used much in this matchup, tagers 2C is a really good anti air, and can hit you even if you're behind him, even if you trade with his 2C you'll still get fatal CH'd and he'll have time to recover from your hit, then combo you, if you do use it on the other hand, don't do it too much, and be prepared to eat a fatal if you do.

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I think Bumpers shouldn't be used much in this matchup, tagers 2C is a really good anti air, and can hit you even if you're behind him, even if you trade with his 2C you'll still get fatal CH'd and he'll have time to recover from your hit, then combo you, if you do use it on the other hand, don't do it too much, and be prepared to eat a fatal if you do.

I half agree and half disagree.

What you said is true that's for sure and Tagers do tend to use 2C a lot, but I do think there are situations when bumpers can be effective or I should say a situation different than others.

Instead of going for a bumper mix-up on oki or during blockstrings (places where a Tager player may be throwing out 2C), use bumpers during neutral instead to get in almost instantly. This would be most effective through an actual bumper pattern or at least "C bumper".

Reason being, a single bumper placed between yourself and Tager means you have to get close which leads to you possibly getting hit by a poke or him being able to anticipate the bumper mix-up anyway. This gets rid of A and B bumper individually if we assume you're throwing it out in that instance or let's just say you're in those "positions". D bumper would be behind Bang so that's not really effective in that scenario BUT you can use it to sucker him into getting close while YOU are in the corner/near the corner and then using the bumper to effectively put him in the corner but that's something else entirely. C bumper in this scenario is good because it is right above Bang, which means you can avoid Tager by going backwards or get in closer going forwards to potentially land the mix-up.

Now with all that said, I think an actual pattern works best against Tager so all that is kind of a moot point. If you have a pattern setup and are in neutral it means you can effectively get in on him immediately. So if he's hesitating full-screen or 3/4 screen away, maybe just throwing out stuff, you can try and react quickly to go for the bumper mix-up. In this situation I don't think Tagers would be throwing out 2C in that kind of neutral. He would be throwing out other pokes or jumping around or doing whatever, but that's why you try and just look for a good time to do it.

My point is, as always bumpers are situational, but I don't think they should be ignored in this match-up because they can be effective if used properly considering Tager's lack of mobility.

(Although they will fuck up your combos at some point I'm sure or make you go for a much weaker one from having to adjust it.)

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And let's not ignore the fact that ignoring the bumper entirely is a mixup in itself.

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6B puts you in the air. Using it on Tagers wake up for Oki can be very effective, especially if you have 50 heat to go into some godlike mix up. Tager does wake up 360 A/B/720, he's going to get CH. 2D does indeed beat out Tager j.2D, but it needs to be timed differently compared to other AA attempts since the move alters his momentum so much.

General advice in this match up, I'd say stay in the air a lot. On wake up, neutral tech is a good option if you're expecting a tech trap since you can just jump and get out for free. Also, surprisingly enough, quick get up > jump works against traps too. Of course you run the risk of a meaty poke catching you on jump start up, but that's the game isn't it.

Something I like to do a lot (as well as a lot of other Bang mains) is CMD grab after every air combo. Consider this, Tager's wake up is strong IF he's on the ground. If you grab instead of j.C to end a BnB, he has 2 options; Tech the throw (most likely choice) or eat 2.4k and still end up airborne for missing it. Either way Tager is in the air without a decent option while we have a few. Poison nail is always a solid choice. A bit riskier, throw break > air dash > A nail (minimal hit stun on block but interrupts rhythm enough to make them miss an input) to CMD grab.

For lulz and a good kill combo that's flashy, that air Otoshi > RC last hit > Steel Rain.

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6B puts you in the air. Using it on Tagers wake up for Oki can be very effective, especially if you have 50 heat to go into some godlike mix up. Tager does wake up 360 A/B/720, he's going to get CH. 2D does indeed beat out Tager j.2D, but it needs to be timed differently compared to other AA attempts since the move alters his momentum so much.

General advice in this match up, I'd say stay in the air a lot. On wake up, neutral tech is a good option if you're expecting a tech trap since you can just jump and get out for free. Also, surprisingly enough, quick get up > jump works against traps too. Of course you run the risk of a meaty poke catching you on jump start up, but that's the game isn't it.

Something I like to do a lot (as well as a lot of other Bang mains) is CMD grab after every air combo. Consider this, Tager's wake up is strong IF he's on the ground. If you grab instead of j.C to end a BnB, he has 2 options; Tech the throw (most likely choice) or eat 2.4k and still end up airborne for missing it. Either way Tager is in the air without a decent option while we have a few. Poison nail is always a solid choice. A bit riskier, throw break > air dash > A nail (minimal hit stun on block but interrupts rhythm enough to make them miss an input) to CMD grab.

For lulz and a good kill combo that's flashy, that air Otoshi > RC last hit > Steel Rain.

I really like that 6B idea, though, I don't think you should be in the air much, there are things tager can do about that, Atomic Collider, and 2C, I suggest footsies and lots of 5B's because there really nothing he can do about it he can dash or anything so there's really not much of a chance of him catching you with any of his normals, you just want to stay out of his range so he cant grab, or get you into a blockstring, because that's when he gets scary.

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6B puts you in the air. Using it on Tagers wake up for Oki can be very effective
Wouldn't 360A beat it?

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I don't think 360A beats it, no. It might, lemme go test it. When I find out, I'll post a Bang tutorial I think I got the idea from.

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It looks like it all timing dependent. But from my tests, it beats GETB, both A and B busters, and it's fast enough that you can jump out after his back dash before you're punished. There IS a note after this section of the video that mentions 2C, A buster, and GETB. From Japans results, I think it's saying that it's unsafe to use this technique on those wake up options. If someone can translate this vid and others related, that'd be just too cool.

Side note, the video also shows Bang reading a tic throw and countering with 6C. This is high risk high reward stuff. Got me thinking though, you can TK Double Palm his shit on wake up too and that's only -4 for god sake. If we hit him, we can build sick meter and huge damage with fatal combos. What do you folks think? Practical?

Bang vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb9tqjCh9zM

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Bang's 6B is active for 3 frames. Tager's 360A is invulnerable for 9 frames and 720 is invulnerable for 6. So Tager can buster Bang out of it, just as long as it is timed correctly.

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Yeah I was positive 360A > 6B. I've been grabbed from it countless times. When I attempt a 6B RC in a blockstring, Mashed 360A eats it.

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Meaty 6B vs Tager is really strong because....

It beats all buster attempts. (including 720)

It beats backdash because you will recover first, so doing 5A after 6B would be meaty (he could 720 you here I guess?)

MagnaTechWheel will hit you....

Also... 2D(if they block it standing)/5C into jA is a fuzzy guard vs Tager.

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Meaty 6B vs Tager is really strong because....

It beats all buster attempts. (including 720)

It beats backdash because you will recover first, so doing 5A after 6B would be meaty (he could 720 you here I guess?)

MagnaTechWheel will hit you....

Also... 2D(if they block it standing)/5C into jA is a fuzzy guard vs Tager.

Do those work if you actually "hit confirm" them first or do they only work in a "just do it" scenario? 5C>j.A isn't something you would normally be doing since it would either be 5C>2C, 5C>5D, 5C>6A or 5C>6B, so that's why I'm asking. 5C>2C, 5C>6A, and 5C>5D combo so just doing them makes sense since you can hit confirm into a combo or recognize he's blocking. 5C>6B is of course a double overhead and you're basically looking for a CH or at least 6B is only -1 if they happen to block it as well. But 5C>j.A just seems like you would need to just throw it out there because if they DON'T block 5C (now in crouching state) I can't imagine j.A actually connecting and being able to go into anything. I guess what I'm asking is, is it worth it to even go into that considering all the other options available?

2D>j.A is a little more understandable because 2D>j.A combos at least, although you wouldn't be hit confirming whether that 2D was a CH or not since you are just defaulting to the non-CH combo anyway. So even if they do block 2D, going into j.A seems plausible. But even considering that, 2D is one of the few moves you actually have all the time in the world to hit confirm the difference between non-CH or CH (or block), so going into j.A immediately seems to forgo that and you're sacrificing stuff again.

I am however getting ahead of myself because I haven't tried it out personally but those were my thoughts when I was thinking about it. I guess if I spend a little time on it I can see for myself how it works by comparison.

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5C jA jC RC jC is for midscreen and 5C jC RC jC is for the corner.

5C jC RC jC is a universal fuzzy in the corner (thanks tokyo bang).

Its just a just do it kind of thing... except 5C jC is pretty decent...

it just nice to have some form of mixup they can't react to.

Its only worth it if you have a hard time opening up your opponent with standard mixup...

Do those work if you actually "hit confirm" them first or do they only work in a "just do it" scenario? 5C>j.A isn't something you would normally be doing since it would either be 5C>2C, 5C>5D, 5C>6A or 5C>6B, so that's why I'm asking. 5C>2C, 5C>6A, and 5C>5D combo so just doing them makes sense since you can hit confirm into a combo or recognize he's blocking. 5C>6B is of course a double overhead and you're basically looking for a CH or at least 6B is only -1 if they happen to block it as well. But 5C>j.A just seems like you would need to just throw it out there because if they DON'T block 5C (now in crouching state) I can't imagine j.A actually connecting and being able to go into anything. I guess what I'm asking is, is it worth it to even go into that considering all the other options available?

2D>j.A is a little more understandable because 2D>j.A combos at least, although you wouldn't be hit confirming whether that 2D was a CH or not since you are just defaulting to the non-CH combo anyway. So even if they do block 2D, going into j.A seems plausible. But even considering that, 2D is one of the few moves you actually have all the time in the world to hit confirm the difference between non-CH or CH (or block), so going into j.A immediately seems to forgo that and you're sacrificing stuff again.

I am however getting ahead of myself because I haven't tried it out personally but those were my thoughts when I was thinking about it. I guess if I spend a little time on it I can see for myself how it works by comparison.

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5C jA jC RC jC is for midscreen and 5C jC RC jC is for the corner.

5C jC RC jC is a universal fuzzy in the corner (thanks tokyo bang).

Its just a just do it kind of thing... except 5C jC is pretty decent...

it just nice to have some form of mixup they can't react to.

Its only worth it if you have a hard time opening up your opponent with standard mixup...

Ahhh I see. Thanks.

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