[CSE] Makoto Nanaya's General Gameplay Discussion Thread

[Dark Ranger88]

I call Tsubaki the Yolo Character.

Yolo Shield Charge = Yolo "DP" = Yolo Falcon Dives = Yolo Rushing Uppercut = Yolo Unblockables = Yolo "Damage"

I really regret ever trying Tsubaki though.

Hmm...I kinda liked Tsubaki back when I played her. That huge burst of speed at the beginning of her dash made it really easy to close distance on people (She's even faster than Makoto and Bang in that respect). I couldn't get used to the stagger/charge cancel pressure, it was too early in my FG career...And having to charge in neutral kinda sucked.

[swordsman09]

Tsubaki just wasn't for me. That's the gist of it. Maybe I'll try her again and see if my opinion changes. I doubt that's gonna happen though. Even the three friends:NO: person that I am is gonna force me to like Tsubaki.

[Errol]

Yolo Shield Charge = Yolo "DP" = Yolo Falcon Dives = Yolo Rushing Uppercut = Yolo Unblockables = Yolo "Damage"

Hmm...I kinda liked Tsubaki back when I played her. That huge burst of speed at the beginning of her dash made it really easy to close distance on people (She's even faster than Makoto and Bang in that respect). I couldn't get used to the stagger/charge cancel pressure, it was too early in my FG career...And having to charge in neutral kinda sucked.

she's slower than bang and makoto in that respect. she gets faster after a bit but her initial dash speed is worse.

[Dark Ranger88]

she's slower than bang and makoto in that respect. she gets faster after a bit but her initial dash speed is worse.

You're right hehe. Mak's initial speed is faster, does Tsubaki just have ridiculous acceleration or something? After playing Makoto for so long Tsubaki's first few steps seem so much faster whenever I'm practicing stuff against her in training mode.

[swordsman09]

I don't want to go back to the DARK SIDE and use Tsubaki again. At the same time, I don't want to scrub it out 24/7 with Noel either.

[Errol]

You're right hehe. Mak's initial speed is faster, does Tsubaki just have ridiculous acceleration or something? After playing Makoto for so long Tsubaki's first few steps seem so much faster whenever I'm practicing stuff against her in training mode.

In EX tsubaki has faster acceleration but in CP makoto has all around better stats.

[Wild Candy]

Yeah, Makoto's damage output mid screen is really good compared to a lot of the cast, and her mid screen combos still are great at corner carrying! Makoto's initial dash speed is slower, but her top dash speed is much faster, which I'm pretty sure ties her with Bang for the fastest characters in CP. Her 5D attacks also have more untechable time, so there's much more time to set up Comet Canon Oki in the corner, which is very good for resetting pressure. Finally, she has one of the best overdrives in the game, which pretty much increases the speed and damage of her drive attacks, and basically, her combos turn into. "How many drives can I fit in one Combo?" and "Say my name Bitch! SAY IT!"

All around, Makoto's improved a lot in Extend. And we get a small taste of CS2 Makoto in thanks to Overdrive, so all and all, I'm happy!

[Dark Ranger88]

I got a question here. How do you guys handle Mu's DP? Recently I've been using j.C on her wakeup to clash with it, but it's not a meaty so people can anti-air on their wakeup to beat it.

Geez a character with such good spacing and zoning (especially when compared to Makoto) shouldn't also have one of the best DP's in the game...

It's like I work really hard to get in only to get DP'd across the screen again.

[Wild Candy]

Yeah, the best thing I think of... Probably bait it, and try to predict when they'll use it. Mu's DP is really good, but it's range is short, and like all DP's, it's punishable on block of whiff.

[Bibiquadium]

Actually the DP has many flaws what you truly need to investigate on is how the opponent uses his DP to act accordingly. You can't go for obvious baits because not only she has good damage good carry good normals and a dp, she also has a good back dash because obviously they needed to give her all that.

[Ragnarok_F4]

Yeah, the best thing I think of... Probably bait it, and try to predict when they'll use it. Mu's DP is really good, but it's range is short, and like all DP's, it's punishable on block of whiff.

This. Mu's DP recovers so fast after a clash, and is pretty fast, I guess baiting it is the best option, that and reading you're opponent's moves.

Now that we are talking about matchups, in EX, playing against Tao is a huge pain in the ass. She doesn't stay still, her pokes are faster, her pressure is better and her mixups are insane. The only good thing against her is that here damage output is not that high.....unless you're playing in CP. God dammit I'm scared of Tao in CP .

[Dark Ranger88]

Now that we are talking about matchups, in EX, playing against Tao is a huge pain in the ass. She doesn't stay still, her pokes are faster, her pressure is better and her mixups are insane. The only good thing against her is that here damage output is not that high.....unless you're playing in CP. God dammit I'm scared of Tao in CP .

Don't forget that her drive stuffs all of your aerial options too and takes you to the corner on counter hit.

[Wild Candy]

Yep... And some how Makoto was the one who got nerfed in Extend... Way to go ArcSys...

Mu pretty much plays like Dizzy on Steroids! At least give her a slightly weaker defense game!

Anyway, Makoto can be a bit of nuisance for Mu in some ways, if they get a little careless, you can rush in and punish her before she recovers from summoning Steins. Barrier Dash Canceling is also helpful, for her Arrows Of Heaven Special, Steins, etc. Be very wary of being trapped in the corner though, like Makoto, this is where Mu really shines! Her Oki becomes freaking scary, and her pokes are near inescapable.

I guess, the best thing I can say is, wait for a gap, and then punish accordingly.

EDIT: Tao is just freaking messed up, it's impossible to step toe to toe with her in the air, and don't forget about her random bowling balls and baseballs stuffing your rush ins. The reach of some of her normals can really annoying to. Tao is just my worst nightmare, no matter what character I'm using!

[swordsman09]

You can't just mash A against Tao because she has the frame advantage to get the first hit regardless. At least in my experiences.

[Bibiquadium]

Maybe online but offline its gapless until she resets pressure then from there you have react accordingly as she has multiple approaches.

[Teutonicknight]

EDIT: Tao is just freaking messed up, it's impossible to step toe to toe with her in the air, and don't forget about her random bowling balls and baseballs stuffing your rush ins. The reach of some of her normals can really annoying to. Tao is just my worst nightmare, no matter what character I'm using!

Tao's pretty much the most luck-dependant character ever next to Arakune and Noel. Yeah, she has a lot of variables that can save her more often than not. Not to mention pretty much every one of her hits goes into a hellishly long combo that does just as much damage as some of Makoto's stuff at half the speed.

[Dark Ranger88]

Since we're discussing our matchups / venting...

What in the world are you supposed to do against Bangs that use the D nails to approach? They stuff my ground approach, come out too quickly to chase after he IADs backwards, and if you jump you still get put into blockstun and have to block mixup/lose.

Parrying the nails works if he dashes in behind them, but that's hella hard to do consistently.

Then once you start expecting the nails and hesitating, he approaches with dash 5B or IAD j.B. Then you're still blocking mixup/losing.

[Bibiquadium]

IB 5A D Nails.

[Teutonicknight]

Works every time.

[Dark Ranger88]

Thanks guys! I'll try it.

[Wild Candy]

The Nail's aren't as bad jump spam though...

I feel like the only match up for Makoto that's absolute balls though is going up against Lambda... Bitch was made to counter Makoto, Tager, and most likely Azreal. (She really doesn't like Sector Seven...)

With the other zoner's its fairly easy to punish them for a mistake in their zoning.

I.E

Punish Rachel while Summoning

Punish Hazama when ever a chain whiffs

Punish Mu when ever she gets Stein Happy or whiffs a bad normal

But Lamda is the only one who's zoning game just outright shuts down Makoto, it kinda pisses me off. The only person I know of who doesn't struggle using Makoto against her is Goro!

[Teutonicknight]

The key to succeeding with Makoto in Extend is punishing rather than blindly rushing.

Makoto feels more like a punisher rather than a true rushdown fighter in Ex.

[Bibiquadium]

That's only until you get in. Then tables are turning until you don't get a propper oki or get bursted away.

[Teutonicknight]

That's with every other character though, and they got better everything, and most generally keep pressure better. She relies on punishing a lot more than everybody else.

I agree with Candy on the Lambda matchup though. It's not hopeless, but f**k, getting in on her with Makoto is easier said than done. And to make things worse, she can always just burst you away, making you go through hell all over again. And if you burst her to get out of her pressure, you just helped her by creating space.

[Dark Ranger88]

Lambda's stuff is easy to block though, so it's not as bad if you get caught a couple of times. Like Bibi said though once you get in she usually has to burst/CA to get out. (Is it just me or are Lambdas notoriously bad blockers?)

My approach to Lambda in neutral is luck based. From full screen I do one of these:

66 -> 214B -> j.C (Beats 5D) - This hits from full screen even if she's crouching.

214A -> 66 -> 5B (Beats 6D)

66 -> 2A+B (Lets me react to all of her slower options like Spike Chaser, Cavalier, jumping, or sword rain distortion).

She'll have to guess which clone you're hiding behind if she's zoning with 5D/6D. If she guesses wrong once you're in and have a good chance to take the rebel.

After you get in a couple of times using Asteroid Vision they start doing stuff like Cavalier in neutral to hit all of the clones. AKA stupid stuff that you can punish.

Now it's just a full screen game of rock paper scissors.