[CSE] Makoto Nanaya's General Gameplay Discussion Thread

[Errol]

Lambda's stuff is easy to block.

Lambda has a 17f overhead.

[Teutonicknight]

Either way, you have to play flawlessly if it is a good Lambda. It they know what they are doing on the defensive, it's a tough fight.

And no, her stuff is not all that easy to block, and on top of that, you can't be blocking for long anyways since she breaks primers pretty quickly.

[Moy_X7]

Lambda mix-up, huh?

Wheel oki = empty jump mix-up (land > low or AD > high) = people getting opened up

JC'able moves = TK Crescent feint mix-up = people getting opened up

Well spaced 4B... nuff said

She's no Valk but her mix-up isn't that godawful either.

[Dark Ranger88]

She has to be at a certain distance for it to be 17 frames (if they are too close you can react to the hitstop of the first hit and still block it), which usually telegraphs that they are going for the overhead. Also, it might just be me, but the crazy splits animation looks nothing like any of her other moves and makes it really easy to react to. It also looks much different from 3C, the other part of that high low mixup.

I'm not saying I never get hit by it, but it's probably the overhead I block the most consistently.

[Bibiquadium]

Nobody knows how to 4B's 2nd hit in America anyway.

[Teutonicknight]

She's no Valk but her mix-up isn't that godawful either.

That's exactly like I said. There's not a whole lot of variety in her mixups, but she has them where they really count.

Ranger has a point on her overhead though, Makoto is usually within that certain distance to block the second hit most of the time, and that second hit is really what does the damage.

[Errol]

Nobody knows how to 4B's 2nd hit in America anyway.

toan does. but if you don't play against good lambdas I can see how it would seem easy to block her stuff.

[Bibiquadium]

He never goes to majors so he's not on the map.

[HiagoX]

Lambda's stuff is easy to block though, so it's not as bad if you get caught a couple of times. Like Bibi said though once you get in she usually has to burst/CA to get out. (Is it just me or are Lambdas notoriously bad blockers?)

My approach to Lambda in neutral is luck based. From full screen I do one of these:

66 -> 214B -> j.C (Beats 5D) - This hits from full screen even if she's crouching.

214A -> 66 -> 5B (Beats 6D)

66 -> 2A+B (Lets me react to all of her slower options like Spike Chaser, Cavalier, jumping, or sword rain distortion).

She'll have to guess which clone you're hiding behind if she's zoning with 5D/6D. If she guesses wrong once you're in and have a good chance to take the rebel.

After you get in a couple of times using Asteroid Vision they start doing stuff like Cavalier in neutral to hit all of the clones. AKA stupid stuff that you can punish.

You really shouldn't be usiing AV like that just to avoid getting hit. lol

[Teutonicknight]

Yeah, clones are pretty gimmicky anyways. Makoto's hitbox is too big, and you will most likely just get beat up that way.

[Dark Ranger88]

I only use AV to beat 5D and 6D. Most Lambdas react to your approach with the D swords. If you jump they 6D, this stuffs your airdash approach. If you start running they put out a 5D in your way. Even if you airdash over a 5D you still won't be able to hit Lambda because your j.C/j.CC/5B will be out of range. If you hesitate/do nothing from full screen, she starts setting stuff up. Lambda is still in control during all of these scenarios.

Using AV makes it impossible for her to react to your approach. She loses the control over neutral she once had. She either has to guess which clone you'll be behind or use a move that hits all of the clones (her options for the latter are risky and leave her open). Or she can retreat which does nothing but back her up into a corner.

@Hiago: I don't use AV just to avoid getting hit. Doing what I listed gets you a guaranteed hit if she whiffs a sword.

Lambda controls way too much of the screen in this matchup. She basically has to make a mistake in order for you to get in. Good Lambdas (which I have never played apparently...) don't make these mistakes. You have to force these mistakes on her by making her guess.

I know using AV in neutral is risky, but the reward is huge in this matchup and greatly outweighs the risk.

Jesus how do you people play against Hakumen? Do you just never do any attacks because there is a risk that you might get countered???

Have any of you even tried to do this against a Lambda yet? You know...test this out before you tell me it's stupid.

[Bibiquadium]

Cut the chase with AV, I don't get how people think its legit just because they don't get punished for it. Lambda will often throw swords at you to stay away but she has to take chances as she can't always throw the right one, as soon as a sword whiffs then you dash in, this is your safest bet.

[Teutonicknight]

What Bibi said, AV is not really all that practical for approaching at all. You can't block if they try attacking, and there's roughly a 90% chance you're going to get hit.

It's a little too predictable.

edit: also, as for Hakumen, you have to play freakishly smart if he is good. Makoto can actually hold up decently against him if you know what you are doing.

But overall, he's an ass to everyone, and not just Makoto.

[Kenrou.Horo]

man 5-26 doesn't feel good LOL.

I think I've gotten better at vsing Hakumen and Plat, but I'm still terrible against Ragna and Jin. I reckon I'm way too jumpy and air dash in too often, and need to learn some blockstrings lel.

[Dark Ranger88]

Don't know if you guys do this or not, but if Hazama is using flash kick to anti air your airdash approaches you can IAD j.2C to bait it by doing the move when you're in front of Haz.

You can do the j.2C almost right in front of him and he'll still whiff. You recover way before he does and if he tries to press anything he gets counterhit.

[Bibiquadium]

That doesn't seem like a legitimate thing to do. You seem very fond on High Risk / Small Reward things.

[Kenrou.Horo]

Man I wish they increased the hitbbox/reduced the hurtbox of lightning arrow

[Teutonicknight]

Lightning Arrow is pretty much a useless move now. It's one of the few specials in the game that can't combo without CH, does not hit overhead, slow, and risky as hell since it is easy to react to. It has uses, but I only use it sparingly.

[Kenrou.Horo]

It makes me sad that such a high risk move loses to a move like Ragna's hell's fang dash. It also makes me sad that Ragna can combo off his amazing DP, whereas we can't with our already flawed DP :/

Also should I get out of the habit of defaulting to 5CC>214A~CCCCC for midscreen combos and instead opt for 5C>6C>214AC>etc? Cuz especially online all it is is a free RC from me due to how tight it is TT^TT

[Teutonicknight]

Yeah, timing on that move is pretty tricky when you first play, I honestly thought the combo didn't work for a second, lol...

I just wish Makoto had some real advantages in Ex, because I can't really point out anything that makes up for her glaring weaknesses that someone in the cast can't do better.

[Kenrou.Horo]

I can land it -most of the time- offline, but online is a different story lol. It's so rewarding everytime I land it, since by the time I do, I usually already have enough meter for RC into 2D xD

Yeah all my envy goes towards Ragna, but I absolutely refuse to use him. He just seems so... boring lol.

Really keen for CP just for Cosmic Ray alone. I love using 5D at neutral despite the risks xD

[Teutonicknight]

Ragna's overpowered in Ex. I'm putting that bluntly. And I was using Ragna for a good amount of time during CT and the beginning of CS. I wouldn't be playing BB right now if it wasn't for Makoto, she is just that much more fun to use over him to me.

But yeah, the Makoto vs Ragna matchup is like trying to fight Twisted Metal 2 Minion with Warthog. You both play similar, except he beats you in every other way. Idk why they gave all that power to someone who actually has range and normals with a freakishly good DP. Try figuring that out...

[Bibiquadium]

I just don't like how he can get out of anything for free except for a whiffed DP.

[Teutonicknight]

I just don't like how he can get out of anything for free except for a whiffed DP.

You forgot to mention that he doesn't even need to use meter to do serious damage in the 4-5k range. Now when he actually decides to use meter, he can easily get 6.5-7.5k without even doing anything optimal. All it is is timing from there on, and it's not even all that strict either...

[Kenrou.Horo]

And how it seems like he can combo off of any random hit easily, given how huge his hitboxes are :/

#ragnahatethread