[AC+R] News & Gameplay Discussion

[MasamuneXGP]

Statements like that are the truth. And I know truth is annoying and all, but Guilty Gear; ESPECIALLY Guilty Gear is not build for netplay. BlazBlue on the other hand is build for netplay.

Rollback does not solve everything, rollback still causes a frameskip in between the rollback events. It still makes 3 frame moves 1 frame even when the delay setting is set to 2. And with higher delay it just goes up. Now it doesn't mean that GG cannot be played online, but you can't play it the exact same way as you can offline.

I do agree that Guilty Gear isn't "built for" netplay, but the assertion the article was making was that it wouldn't work even with the best possible netcode. Which I very much disagree with. I live in central Florida. My family and friends are in New Jersey. Back when I was playing IaMP, we had 3 frames of latency, which were all covered by rollback, so 0 frames of input lag. Now, I do understand that rollbacks = skipped frames, but for a game like Guilty Gear, 3 frames of rollback is infinitely, immeasurably better than 3 frames of input lag. FRCs might look a little more clipped, but their timing wouldn't change, and that's all the matters.

All I really want is lag-free matches between my family and friends. The article implies that that's not even possible, which is what gets me angry, because I have *experienced it before*. I get that lag-free matches between US and Japan aren't going to happen, but even there, as long as the input delay is constant and known, it's a lot easier to play around than variable, unknown input delay, which is what a lot of netcodes do.

[reaVer]

Noone here said it CAN'T work, but the truth will always be that it cannot work as well as offline play. And while I'm all for good netcode and online play, you have to understand that there still are differences between online and offline, regardless of how good your lag compensation is. Now for BlazBlue on the other hand... totally different story, the fastest move comes out in 5 frames, characters don't run as fast and the overall speeds are slower and there the lag compensation proves a lot more useful.

[2Zak]

Nobody here said that, it was the author of this article linked before.

Online play? I don't know, here where I live playing a near-perfect online match is a dream. I always saw online as a means of playing casually, I'd never even dream of doing advanced shit over the internet. Also, no games had online for fucking decades and when I wanted to play versus I called friends to get their asses over my damn house, a not-perfect online mode is not that fucking much of a deal. The game would play exactly the same way, even if it had no online mode.

[Blade]

Here's my overall experience with Online Fighting games in general:

GGXX#R on XBox: Terrible, terrible buffers and aside from that still fun.

GGXXAC+ on PSP via Ad Hoc Party: WORSE THAN TERRIBLE, when character select lags, you know it's bad.

BlazBlue on PS3: Calamity Trigger is the first DECENT Online fighter I've EVER played to date, and even in situations where lag is bad, you still feel in control of your character, which is a good thing.

SSFIV on PS3: Controller lockup, full on disconnects, and just plain bad...not even worth the time.

Mortal Kombat 9 on PS3: Actually good when the connection is good, inputs don't mess up often, and it really works out...only downside being limitations to rooms and other minor lobby aspects, otherwise King of the Hill is fun! If only ragequitters didn't ruin the experience.

Mortal Kombat Arcade Kollection: If it weren't for the fact the Main Menu streaming of this game caused it to crash, Pausing issues, movelist issues, and a few other offline things, the online aspect of it wasn't bad.

Marvel VS Capcom 2: I saw next to no problems playing this with others.

UMvC3/MvC3: Good for the most part, though as of late I've had issues with Strider dropping combos unless I buffer, otherwise it's not a big deal with friends around me.

I have good hopes for GGXXAC+ on PSN though. I haven't heard anything bad regarding Arcana Heart 3 yet, so there you go.

[seyu]

Sounds reasonable to make a list to compare, but I find it really hard to believe that you had one of the worst experiences with SSF4.

I live in europe and I was able to play almost lagless matches with americans and even japanese people.

From my experience, even 2 Bars guarantee a decent match.

I bet there is lag, but I sure hardly notice it and in comparison it was far more apparent in MvC3 to me.

It would be good to know the circumstances you tested it under. Not to defend SSF4, but about the only thing I like about it is the netcode.

Also: I have AC+ on PSP and a ps3 for ad-Hoc party. So do you think there is a chance to get a decent match out of it, with like very close people?

And lastly:

What would everyone think of adjustments to the game to fit it to online play? Like widening the window to dodge throws, performing FRCs or changing some hitboxes or move speeds to make some combos less tight?

It would probably alter the gameplay at least a little, but could make a difference to ease the frustration for some players.

[qwerty]

If people want to play a game that was made for netplay, they have plenty of other choices. Guilty Gear is an old game from old times, and changing that is going to end up alienating everyone.

I do think they should implement some sort of advance input to compensate for the inherent input lag of the PS3/360 (though they may have another, better solution to it we just don't know about yet), but past that there shouldn't be any changes to input windows or buffers. As it is, AC has the best (read: intelligent; forgiving when you need it to be, accurate when you need it to be) command interpreter of any GG, and arguably of any fighting game period.

I really hope this port is at the same speed as the arcade version, since that alone would make AC much more manageable, online and off.

Edited March 1, 2012 by qwerty

[Circuitous]

If

arcade version netplay

taught me anything, it's that AC online is possible, but all I can hope for out of the game is a good offline experience so that setups are easier to get.

[Hecatom]

Sounds reasonable to make a list to compare, but I find it really hard to believe that you had one of the worst experiences with SSF4.

I live in europe and I was able to play almost lagless matches with americans and even japanese people.

From my experience, even 2 Bars guarantee a decent match.

I bet there is lag, but I sure hardly notice it and in comparison it was far more apparent in MvC3 to me.

It would be good to know the circumstances you tested it under. Not to defend SSF4, but about the only thing I like about it is the netcode.

Also: I have AC+ on PSP and a ps3 for ad-Hoc party. So do you think there is a chance to get a decent match out of it, with like very close people?

And lastly:

What would everyone think of adjustments to the game to fit it to online play? Like widening the window to dodge throws, performing FRCs or changing some hitboxes or move speeds to make some combos less tight?

It would probably alter the gameplay at least a little, but could make a difference to ease the frustration for some players.

tbh the sf4 netcode (or any netcode in general) is a hit or miss, in my case its one of the worst netcode experience that i have the disgrace to play

on the other hand, many people feel that mk9 has a really terrible netcode, but i have a great experience with it so far

of course, considering that i have flawless netcode experience against people on other cities on umvc3 (a game with one of the worst netcodes so far, even worse than sf4) while playing with friends on the same city is just awful can tell you how this netcode thing is just a mess in the big scope :P

Edited March 1, 2012 by Hecatom

[Blade]

Regarding what qwerty said, just putting GGXXAC+ online is going to involve SOME changes, but as far as what alienates GG veterans from the game...I doubt there would be much there to notice, and even if there are noticeable changes, it's a situation where you "adapt or perish" or in this case, you just stick with the PS2 or PSP version. Like I said, I haven't heard anything bad about Arcana Heart 3's online gameplay yet, which is saying something about how ArcSys handles PS2 > PS3 ports and netcode with the ports.

As for PSP and Ad Hoc Party...that's somewhat dated and problematic. Like I said, when I played GGXXAC+ through Ad Hoc, the character select screen lagged, couldn't even start up a decent match. On a related note, I had a Wifi match with someone near me when playing Dissidia Duodecim a few weeks ago and there was plenty of stream lag on that for opening cutscenes (intros). So I think the PSP isn't the ideal platform for online play. As for the Vita...who knows?

My experience with SSFIV is sorted at best, since I hated the game and sold it (which is rare of me to do!), the most annoying aspect of it was when the controls, instead of allowing buffer during lag online, just completely locked up and wouldn't respond to my inputs, this never happened in BlazBlue or even games like TMNT Turtles in Time Re-shelled, Tetris online, or even Moon Diver...most online games I've played NEVER get so bad as to be unresponsive to my inputs, leaving the character to sit there while I get hit by my opponent as if the controller were unplugged.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

AH3 plays awesome online. Of course, with 1 bar game feels kinda funny, but +2 bars is enjoyable.

And now that you mentioned Vita, BBCS Extend plays wonderfully online, considering you're stuck with lol wireless.

[qwerty]

I don't see why it'd be necessary for them to change the game to make it playable online. Even in games like Blazblue, netplay isn't the same as offline play; but if you think that's what netplay needs to be then you're missing the point.

The goal of any developer trying to implement online play should be to get it as close to offline play as possible; the goal of online players should be to utilize the opportunity to get matchup experience you don't normally get, while keeping in mind that you should test everything out once you're done playing online to make sure you aren't implementing sub-optimal tactics. For either party to think of it as a substitute for offline play is just foolish.

Anyways, I'm confident Arcsys won't fuck this port up, because they're Arcsys and they're like that. I have my hopes up.

[xAxLegitxLegend]

I honestly can't wait for this game. I'm hoping this is a good title similar to AH3, except better of course. It is what put them on the map. I don't believe they will mess it up, 3 stars at least (out of 5) quality! Hopes are up and high.

[Blade]

I don't see why it'd be necessary for them to change the game to make it playable online. Even in games like Blazblue, netplay isn't the same as offline play; but if you think that's what netplay needs to be then you're missing the point.

The goal of any developer trying to implement online play should be to get it as close to offline play as possible; the goal of online players should be to utilize the opportunity to get matchup experience you don't normally get, while keeping in mind that you should test everything out once you're done playing online to make sure you aren't implementing sub-optimal tactics. For either party to think of it as a substitute for offline play is just foolish.

Anyways, I'm confident Arcsys won't fuck this port up, because they're Arcsys and they're like that. I have my hopes up.

It may be the goal, but you're being unrealistic if you put that expectation on ArcSys. Not everything streams properly or works properly. Even BlazBlue had menu glitch problems in the past, so nothing is ever "arcade perfect" like all the hardcores want it to be. It's best to just assume they will do their best regardless and enjoy the result.

Also consider that most gamers haven't played the arcade version to make a reasonable comparison. That's just a hardcore player's dream at best.

[seyu]

I would be fine with it workung as good as BB. Games werent always without lag, but at least the primers were almost always accurate.

...

Sometimes i wish i was still interested in BB to bridge the time till GG comes out.

[MacArthur Blunts]

This is nice.

People, get ready to play the flashiest Slayer you will ever play in your life.

But wait.. I haven't played this game since seasons beatings... But wait there's more! I have the combos ingrained into my fingers.

[Amadeous]

It's true, he is the flashiest Slayer.

He ends his DoT motions with a flourish. Shit is amazing.

[Hellmonkey]

My online Potemkin is going to be a monster.

[Star-Demon]

Can you guys do frame #4 FRCS online?

[ConHuevosGuey]

I FRC fine on #reload online and that netcode is ass.

[Circuitous]

Can you guys do frame #4 FRCS online?

If it's a muscle memory FRC it doesn't matter. I know Luis/DI0793 can do TK Bandit Revolver FRCs no problem. I was able to land Potemkin Buster FRCs fairly reliably online. If the delay's consistent it's easy enough to adapt to. That said, if you have an FRC that changes based on hit/miss that you have to react to, obviously it's much harder, but I know it's possible because I've seen it done with Slayer and Millia.

The problem with console netplay is that it's unlikely for the delay to be consistent. Unless they increase the FRC window for netplay it'll definitely be harder.

[Yggjrasil]

It's true, he is the flashiest Slayer.

He ends his DoT motions with a flourish. Shit is amazing.

Yo, that's whats up, along with that Dandy Step Swag.

[W4RP1G]

I'm pretty excited for this. BlazBlue CS EX doesn't exactly have a ton of players online, probably because Aksys keeps releasing new games instead of DLC and splitting up the community. A single Guilty Gear on XBLA, especially only costing $15, will have enough people online to keep me happy for a while(assuming the netplay doesn't blow).

[Hecatom]

ARCSYS

and more games its always better and welcomed imo

[W4RP1G]

ARCSYS

and more games its always better and welcomed imo

What kind of logic is that? The community get's split up every time a few new characters, character tweaks, and game modes are added. Why on earth would anyone encourage new titles over DLC and patches for such miniscule things?

[Circuitous]

What kind of logic is that? The community get's split up every time a few new characters, character tweaks, and game modes are added. Why on earth would anyone encourage new titles over DLC and patches for such miniscule things?

'Cuz we've been doing it that way for over twenty years.