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Zappa is S, his sword is SS.

'Dat Baiken A tier above Jam - Damn! How much stupid shit does that mean *I'm* getting?!

Tatami property is the only thing, TBH...The new gatling is pretty honest - I forgot if J.H actually changed or not to let it do this stuff,

Edited by Star-Demon

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Awww. I remember something about Koichi thinking I-No would be high back when they were first interviewing people about it around when it launched. I see lots of I-No players, but I haven't seen him lately, and most of the I-No play I've seen recently has been uninspiring.

Then again, while the game has been out a year over there, it's still somewhat early. Stuff is still developing and being discovered. We don't even have the game yet (err, not the US SKU anyway). No need to really care about what the list says. This is GG.

Really cool to see Zappa near the top though. It's my favorite matchup, and I'll probably see more people willing to try him out since he's good.

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Not that it's worth putting a ton of stock into tier lists in a game that are only 1 year old, especially since a console version (where characters really flesh out in training mode even further), is barely a month old.

That being said if that list is remotely accurate, this is a great thing, because if Kliff is the 3rd WORST character in this game right now, the gap between top and bottom is insanely small. I haven't spent enough time to argue for or against that list as a whole, but I will say that if that's where the characters fall then there is no way that list should be ordered SS to D, because the tiers are not nearly that far apart.

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Yall should post your own tier lists, it will hold about the same amount of validity as those. Don't let your right to post personal tier lists on the Internet go to waste!

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Yall should post your own tier lists, it will hold about the same amount of validity as those. Don't let your right to post personal tier lists on the Internet go to waste!

SSS+: Slayer with gun

Shit tier: everyone else

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Zappa is S, his sword is SS.

I thought they nerfed the hell out of Zappa in the 1.1 patch. If he's still that good... Damn, how ridiculous was he in 1.0? I heard stories, but I never actually saw footage of him being as broken as folks said.

Faust being S tier I can totally buy. That dude is scary in +R. Kind of surprised the patch didn't hit him a bit harder than it did, honestly.

No idea why Kliff is so low... Last I heard, general consensus was that he was still pretty dangerous in the right hands. Like A/A- tier, maybe B at the worst.

I generally take tier lists with a grain of salt anyway, but some of those placements just seem kind of wacky given what players were saying about the game a month or two back. I have a hard time imagining the meta game could have evolved so much in a matter of weeks that characters are just jumping all over the place (wasn't Slayer C/D tier at one point?). Frankly, I think that list might be the result of people reacting to isolated instances of certain players having a really good/bad day at the arcade or landing some lucky hits in a tournament more so than a proper analysis of all the matchups.

SSS+: Slayer with gun

I think Dusk Thanatos just accidentally leaked the first paid DLC character for Xrd.

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"Nerfed the hell out of" is a bit of an overstatement.

Zappa is straight up fucking dumb now, lol. As if he wasn't already good enough in AC, they decide to give him full screen whiff cancels for the sword, as well as full screen combos (which, obviously, are burst safe, since how are you gonna land a burst when he's on the other side of the screen?).

It's not just the sword, either. The dog isn't quite as braindead as AC, but still very strong; he can still keep you blocking for as long as he wants you to, so I wouldn't say the dog got nerfed that badly. Ghosts are still the troll summon, and Raoh is still Raoh.

As for Kliff being that low, I'm a little confused by that, myself. I'll have to ask around at Mikado to see what the rationale for that is.

Jam at A tier sounds about right (I only see her getting higher), and Justice is probably gonna shoot up to B/B- one of these days.

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Hmm.. I honestly dont see how Kliff is even near bottom tier... like seriously.... Did the person who posted that say WHY?

Yes, Zappa is still that good even after the patch. Sword is just brain dead stupid easy and strong. Full screen extremely hard to see high-low mix ups, completely safe, extremely easy to run away, good lock down... just super abusable. Just go into training mode and mess with the sword for 5 minutes and see how brain dead it is!

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Full screen extremely hard to see high-low mix ups

Oh yes, how could I forget? I spent an entire match just trying to figure out when to block high, lol.

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elvenshadow: how do you think of the faust-kliff matchup

i played it a few days ago myself (i was using kliff... very poorly), but it just feels like faust just has an advantage just because it feels like a lot of faust's normals have attack boxes that extend pretty far beyond vulnerable hitboxes, and it doesn't seem to be so much the case on stuff like j.s for kliff (which i assume is his primary aerial poke)

also items are dumb

i would just like to get some feedback from someone more experienced in that matchup and see if i can gets some insight from your thoughts

edit: i would just like to add that i am asking just about the neutral game, since i am fully aware of the fact that if kliff knows what he's doing, his opponent is pretty much screwed once he does land that first good hit

Edited by M.Song

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I dunno man. On the ground, tons of stuff just whiffs right over kliff's head. Kliff's drill move beats like everything and is safe on block. His pole vault has super ambiguous cross ups based on distance and is safe on block at a lot of distances. I honestly don't think Faust is really at an advantage with the neutural game. It's not horrible for him though. As you said though, Kliff gets way more advantage off one knockdown than Faust.

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And yes that's in order

Is that "order" reading right to left? Cause Japan and all.

Also regarding Kliff being really low: maybe it's a matchup thing? Does Kliff have many very bad or uphill matchups?

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I've yet to see a Kliff player struggle in any matchup, quite honestly. I can't even begin to fathom why Kliff is that low.

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I dunno man. On the ground, tons of stuff just whiffs right over kliff's head. Kliff's drill move beats like everything and is safe on block. His pole vault has super ambiguous cross ups based on distance and is safe on block at a lot of distances. I honestly don't think Faust is really at an advantage with the neutural game. It's not horrible for him though. As you said though, Kliff gets way more advantage off one knockdown than Faust.

alright i am very bad an inexperienced with kliff, its just very likely that i was just making things a lot harder for myself than i should be

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I dunno man. On the ground, tons of stuff just whiffs right over kliff's head. Kliff's drill move beats like everything and is safe on block. His pole vault has super ambiguous cross ups based on distance and is safe on block at a lot of distances. I honestly don't think Faust is really at an advantage with the neutural game. It's not horrible for him though. As you said though, Kliff gets way more advantage off one knockdown than Faust.

The drill isn't actually safe on block. Though it is difficult to punish, it's not impossible. If he does it close to you, it shouldn't be too hard to get a jab (or something else fast). Pot can 5K, but it's tight. Also instant blocking helps, as always.

I've heard that there's some kind of flag on drill that sets the hitstop to be different from normal (less than usual), which could contribute to it seeming difficult to punish, but I can't confirm that.

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I've yet to see a Kliff player struggle in any matchup, quite honestly. I can't even begin to fathom why Kliff is that low.

Agreed, even in the Zappa matchup that pole vault gets him to the other side of the screen so quickly Zappa has trouble keeping a summon on. And hell, his weapon is bigger than his body.

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The matchup chart from some time ago summarized:

S ZA

A+ CH FA MI KL VE DI AX JA OR

A- JO

B+ BA RO SL ED IN AN BR TE KY PO SO MA AB

B- JU

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IMO tiers should always be aggregated by doing a matchup chart, then plotting the totals as a normally distributed variable, and starting at B as the mean. Each standard-deviation-sized step would be a letter, and maybe we could have +/- for half-SD-sized steps if it seems appropriate. So E.G. S-Tier and D-tier characters would both be a 2-event (An instance of something 2 standard deviations from the mean, pretty unusual in a normal distribution) and it would thus be pretty significant for any character to be there.

Most tier lists seem to be pretty arbitrarily divided into tiers, even if the order is derived from something concrete like a matchup chart.

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The matchup chart from some time ago summarized:

S ZA

A+ CH FA MI KL VE DI AX JA OR

A- JO

B+ BA RO SL ED IN AN BR TE KY PO SO MA AB

B- JU

wasn't that old matchup chart pre-patch tho?

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Yes that matchup chart was from Nov 2012, GGXXAC+R 1.0, before the Kliff supernerfs.

Hmm.. I honestly dont see how Kliff is even near bottom tier... like seriously.... Did the person who posted that say WHY?

Oh it's not from one person, the list is just my approximation based on ~1000 posts on the livedoor BBS in the last few weeks. There's a general consensus I noticed that the top 5 are Zappa, Faust, Millia, Chipp and Dizzy, and the bottom 3 are Kliff, Bridget, Venom. There were some people questioning Kliff's placements but more people seemed to agree. The middle tier rankings are mostly based off discussions in July, since there didn't seem to be much talk on the placement of those characters recently so I left them mostly as is from the older lists.

On a general note, people don't really have to put too much stock into the list since it's just a based off of a (large) group of people posting, but I haven't found any other people discussing the tiers on a large scale like this so you take what you can get.

Or we could help out Watches and make our own! :eng101:

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