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[AC+R] News & Gameplay Discussion

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Is it even worth it trying to play online if I'm in Hawaii?

The randoms I had were atrocious. The one guy I play with irl who lives one mile away - it was at least playable but still only 3 bars and random slowdowns here and there.

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I got bored and made a tier list. I should preface it by saying that I don't think the gap between tiers is that significant in this game. The only character that really tips the scale is Zappa, but he's far from unbeatable.

 

The silence on this subject from Japanese and international players alike is a good sign that people are satisfied with how the game's turned out. I just felt like stirring the pot a little ;)

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I don't know about ABA being the absolute worst character, even after being pretty much better than AC ABA and I don't think buri got buffed that much :???:

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I completely disagree with a lot of things on that list like ABA isn't complete garbage shes ok and eddie shouldnt be at low tier and zappa should be at top tier and closer to the left because he has a lot of different playstyles for each stance he is in thats just some of the issues in that list

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I personally like Ruu's tier list for +R: 

Extremely strong: Zappa, Millia, Dizzy, Baiken, Faust, Chipp
Very strong: Axl, Jam, Testament
Strong: May, Anji, A.B.A, Potemkin, Johnny, Order-Sol, Slayer, Sol, Ky, Robo-Ky, Eddie, I-No, Kliff, Justice, Venom, Bridget

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I personally like Ruu's tier list for +R: 

Extremely strong: Zappa, Millia, Dizzy, Baiken, Faust, Chipp

Very strong: Axl, Jam, Testament

Strong: May, Anji, A.B.A, Potemkin, Johnny, Order-Sol, Slayer, Sol, Ky, Robo-Ky, Eddie, I-No, Kliff, Justice, Venom, Bridget

That list is pretty similar to what the JP wiki has. http://seesaawiki.jp/w/ggxx_matome/d/%ba%c7%b6%af%a4%ce%a5%ad%a5%e3%a5%e9%a4%cf%a4%c9%a4%ec%a4%c7%a4%b9%a4%ab%a1%a9#content_6

 

S Millia, Chipp, Faust, Baiken, Jam, Dizzy, Zappa

A Johnny, Axl, Anji, Testament, Slayer, I-no, ABA, Order Sol, Kliff

B Sol, Ky, May, Eddie, Potemkin, Venom, Bridget, Robo-Ky, Justice

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Making tier lists can be fun, though I don't put much stock in them. 

 

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/ggxx/index.html?tc=ya0-trdsg5daeb9ee6h5eai78jbkcdf5afbce7e28kbtg4kscb9ug39ncdd8cdc38kmpcdjhg6g88jj0ccf06lh2ccf4cdhmg4fng6f8ea-bkg-naSym

 

S  Zappa

S-   Jam, Faust, Dizzy, Chipp

A+  Millia

A   Baiken, Pot, Johnny, Bridget, Slayer, I-no, Testament, Anji

A-  Axl, May, Ky, HOS, Eddie

B+ Justice, Kliff, Sol, Aba, Roboky, Venom

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I completely disagree with a lot of things on that list like ABA isn't complete garbage shes ok and eddie shouldnt be at low tier and zappa should be at top tier and closer to the left because he has a lot of different playstyles for each stance he is in thats just some of the issues in that list

 

ABA isn't a bad character at all, it's just that she has to work much harder to create the kinds of opportunities that other characters get without much effort. That, and any momentum she gains can be just as easily taken away from her with one knockdown.

 

Eddie isn't low tier, and if you look at where I placed him relative to the rest of the cast he's roughly in the middle, where he belongs.

 

Zappa is well-rounded, so I put him towards the well-rounded side of the chart. I think you may have misread the chart.

 

Keep in mind that this is all relative: most of the weaker characters in +R probably would have been considered mid tier or higher in AC.

 

@Dai: Is it just me, or do our lists look... pretty similar? A few characters shifted a position or two but that's it.

 

It's pretty funny to see how most lists seem to place most of the characters in roughly the same spot, with the exception of a few outliers. Johnny and Justice in particular seem to generate polarizing opinions regarding their strength.

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I might as well make my own list, so here it is.

 

I aimed to use categories that would give a larger spread on the list and... didn't really succeed.  I definitely feel it's worth noting that even the characters who look like decidedly bad still hit like a truck or have some sort of grime. Just grime with a higher resource cost.

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Well, why not? Here.

 

If this was AC or Slash I'll probably put Bridget in top B at the very least, but since the only remarkable improvement with him in +R was Starship in the air... Yeah, that's about it.

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Alright I need to ask - 

 

I've been playing Baiken forever, and while I think she's a solid character (especially in this version) I don't see any broken things about her that allow her to be anywhere near Zappa tier or S tier on your guys' tier lists. Could some of tell me why you rate her so highly?

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She's about the same as what she was in AC only does more damage now is the reason I got when I asked Ruu the same question.

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I

 

ABA isn't a bad character at all, it's just that she has to work much harder to create the kinds of opportunities that other characters get without much effort. That, and any momentum she gains can be just as easily taken away from her with one knockdown.

 

Eddie isn't low tier, and if you look at where I placed him relative to the rest of the cast he's roughly in the middle, where he belongs.

 

Zappa is well-rounded, so I put him towards the well-rounded side of the chart. I think you may have misread the chart.

 

Keep in mind that this is all relative: most of the weaker characters in +R probably would have been considered mid tier or higher in AC.

 

@Dai: Is it just me, or do our lists look... pretty similar? A few characters shifted a position or two but that's it.

 

It's pretty funny to see how most lists seem to place most of the characters in roughly the same spot, with the exception of a few outliers. Johnny and Justice in particular seem to generate polarizing opinions regarding their strength.

 

 

I-No, May, and Anji are the main issues I have.

I swear Anji is A. But I always feel Anji in AC and +R is one tier better than commonly shown....

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Baiken's Sakura counter is the one thing I'd say is close to being "broken" in this game, though it's probably not going to be a big deal unless someone really works for it, which no one seems to be doing.  I don't think it applies to anyone's perception of her standing relative to other characters, but I'd like to bring it up again.

 

Baiken can use her counters during hit/block-pause.  There's an 11-15 frame window when an attack hits or is blocked where neither character can act (based on attack level, it's 11 frames for lvl 1, and +1 as the levels go up).  Even if you RC/FRC, this pause occurs.  So, Baiken can not only use these moves during block strings, but she can start them during this window when the other player cannot move.  In +R, Sakura is frame 10.

 

So, Baiken can actually counter hit a character during the block pause of a lvl 1 move that's active for 1 frame, if her timing is perfect.  You can buffer the input ahead of time, and then negative edge S so that you wont poke out if they intentionally leave a gap assuming you'll **** up the timing.  However, while it's crazy that she can do this to pretty much any move in the game, lvl 1 moves tend to be fast, and the window to do this without fear of being punished is the smallest, so it doesn't apply as much here.  When you're dealing with level 3-5 moves it's a lot scarier.  Lvl 4-5 moves tend to be slow, which means it's possible to see them start up, and because the block-pause window is much larger, you can get a guaranteed CH punish on reaction if you're looking for them.  This also really hurts anyone's ability to oki her since they can't simply put her in block pressure and then RC or jump > FD to bait her counter.  Sakura's range is enough to punish max range Ky pokes, so even if he does 3H at max range, which is normally great oki because it's +15 or whatever, she can guarantee a punish since it's slow to start and easy to react to.

 

Baiken's chain move used to be a guard reversal, and it used to be frame 13 (I think?), meaning you could do this to level 3-5 attacks.  However, the hitbox is aimed upward so you can't really use it against people that are using decently ranged grounded pokes, and the window for success is smaller.  She also has the FB counter which I think is frame 6, but that costs meter so it's fine.

 

So yeah, a meterless guaranteed punish if you have SB timing, which SB doesn't even give you (it just reduces block stun to 2-4 frames).  If someone really REALLY practiced and got seriously good on defense, it would allow a Baiken player to shut down a lot of offensive options in a way that no other tool can.  Yeah, you could get around the hitbox by using the right air to ground pokes from far enough away, but then you're not actually trying to hit Baiken.  The point is that while it's a bad idea to just turtle up, Baiken always has the potential to turn any situation where she doesn't have initiative into a situation where she hits you and gains initiative.

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Baiken's chain move used be 12 frames, so it could still get counter hits on lvl 1 moves (since the moves still have some recovery). A perfect buffered counter used to counter hit Sol's 2P iirc, but it was a pain in the ass to do consistently.

 

Also, keep in mind that you can low profile Sakura's hit-box (unless that's changed too, but I don't think it has). So, moves like Sol's 2D will still go under it. And Sakura's not invulnerable anymore, so Sakura FRC can be a bit harder to utilize in making the move safe. And you can still throw Sakura attempts.

 

It's generally unsafe to abuse Sakura, and no matter how good your timing is, you will not land perfect buffered counters every time. Even if you could, your opponent won't time things the way you think all the time. People mess up oki timings, and the flow of match makes perfectly timed buffered counters impossible to do all the time, or even most of the time.

 

People can also delay their attacks slightly (like a just slightly delayed oki) and get a counter hit against Baiken's 2S (Sol, for example, can do this with with a delayed 6P on wakeup, and that leads to lots of damage). Then again, I think Baiken should be able to option select that with FD (since the first two frames of 2S can be cancelled to FD), but she can still be thrown. Of course, she can also add in a jump there, but then she gets vulnerable to lows. Baiken's got ways to abuse Sakura but there are answers to it, which Baiken has answers to, which have their own answers from Baiken's opponent, and blah blah theory fighter. The point is, the move isn't full-proof, and the application of how to beat the move is anything but impractical -- in fact, the answers to Sakura tend to be easier to execute consistently than Sakura itself.

 

Overall, I don't think Sakura is broken, or even close to it. It's strong, but there are ways to deal with it.

 

 

And my own simplified tier-list opinion:

 

A bit better than everyone else: Zappa, Faust, Dizzy, Millia

Everyone else: Everyone else

A bit worse than everyone else: Robo-Ky, Bridget, Venom

Edited by Orrax

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I used to think Sakura was pretty great too, but like Orrax I've found it's easily adaptable and you need precious meter to do anything with it. But if everyone's reason for thinking Baiken is top tier are the counters I'll take that as an answer.

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Baiken's counters have improved considerably in +R (P counter is better, Sakura is better, K is about the same, H is worse), but I think it's the combined total of all of her changes that really made a difference. She lost easy knockdowns, and as a result got compensated in a bunch of ways: better and faster normals, more damage output, more combo routes. As a result, her neutral game better, her confirms into damage multiplied and improved, and the changes to her counters made her strong defensive game a little stronger. Each of these things alone are not that significant, but together they make her good.

 

So, the sum total of Baiken's improvements are what makes her good in +R, not any one thing alone. Honestly, I think the biggest trouble most Baiken players have is that there is now a LOT of stuff to know about and remember on the fly in a match, much of which has a significant execution requirement, so she has a steep learning curve.

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I'll agree that P counter is better for anti-air, but in AC it was so much better for getting people off of you. It was basically a free dead angle.

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I think Sakura has replaced that use now, and it's even faster than P counter in AC. So, when I say that P counter is better, I'm thinking as an anti-air, because Sakura has effectively replaced its use on the ground.

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I dont see just a video thread period and I dont think I ever posted this here but...

Couple of other videos I made more recently just shows off some dust canceling etc.. And I guess because someone forgot you can make dusts and other attacks as well throw invincable I posted about it even as far back as reload days so ill add t hat too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeng7wdriw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii_qrP2ZC7c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic8YQXQpTnk

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How does making attacks throw invulnerable work, exactly? I vaguely recall hearing about this years ago but never heard how or why it works.

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IIRC, It involves doing a TK motion. On the ground you cancel prejump frames so they can't throw you, and in the air it should work similarly? I don't know specifically, just that it seems to work when I do it like that.

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