[AC+R] News & Gameplay Discussion

[Gramas]

which are the unreactable overheads in the game?

I know just millia half moon move (16 frames)

[Horokei]

Baiken TK Youzansen

Wakamoto TK ENSEGA

I-no hoverdash mixups

All fuzzy-guard mixups

and probably a lot more

[Skeletal Minion]

Challenge accepted

Oh god, you're one of THOSE guys.

I did not respond to that. I was in USA to participate at FF4 and I'm telling you right here what I did there; and I'm telling you that you're essentially branding almost all of my opposition as newbies.

That's a pretty big leap of logic there. I'm saying a tactic you advocate is shitty, but you're saying that since it worked on your opponents at a tournament I didn't follow, didn't see any matches of, and certainly didn't know you entered, that I'm calling them "newbies?" If anything that makes you come off as an arrogant prick, condescendingly making it sound like your flimsy little resets dealt with your opposition so easily.

Right, because that 2K started combo HAS TO GO INTO KNOCKDOWN...

Um... Yes? If I land a 2K with ABA you can bet your ass I'm going to confirm it into something good. You're going to take a one way trip across most of the stage, and once cornered, you're going to eat an orb or butt loop, after which you'll be knocked down, possibly after refreshing my Moroha gauge, and then I'm going to fuck your face on your wakeup. But I'll let you explain why it doesn't "have to go into knockdown." Let's say you hit them with a 2K. What do you do that isn't going to result in the landed 2K being a wasted opportunity when they defeat it by blocking? Oh right, "MIXUPS". But since there's "no high/low on the ground," please say specifically, what are you going to do?

And there you have my point, they are attempting a read BECAUSE THEY CAN, WITH RESETS THEY CANNOT; sorry, let me correct that, THEY CANNOT IF YOU DON'T TELEGRAPH YOUR SHIT.

So resets are cool because they have to guess which one of their several different valid escape options will evade the lone two reset options you can do. Also, pattern recognition and recalling your opponent's previous actions ("Hey, last time he did this combo, he went for that air reset gimmick... I WONDER WHICH OF MY MANY ESCAPE OPTIONS I SHOULD USE TO DEAL WITH IT THIS TIME") doesn't make resets any less cool, since they don't come into play at all--I mean, your opponent has TOTALLY gotta make a throwing-darts-on-a-board guess, right? I'm aware making a read based on previous actions can happen during oki too, but guess what? For oki, it's the other way around! The attacker has MUCH better options than their opponent. They have MORE options than their opponent. They have MORE REWARDING/LESS RISKY options than their opponent. THESE THINGS ARE WHY KD/OKI IS BETTER. You're saying they don't have time to see the reset coming, so they can't react? Why wouldn't that be EXACTLY what they're thinking mid-combo, since teching/not teching are literally the only two options they have during that time aside from Burst? "Well, I'm eating this combo, guess I'll sit here with my brain turned off, not thinking about what my opponent is going to do next, and wait until it's ove--BWOAH GOD RESET, WHO'DA THUNKIT" it not how it typically works.

No, at that point I'm not forcing anything, they chose to do those options and I have no way of discerning which one they are chosing because their inputs are in no way revealed.

You're "not forcing anything" when you knock your opponent down? What in the actual fuck, do you just back off so they can stand up and get away? Regardless of which one they specifically pick, you are limiting their choices to those few defensive options and FORCING them to pick one of them period, not one in particular.

No they don't, their defensive mixup is stronger than you're giving them credit for. They can see what you're doing, which means you cannot using anything telegraphed and therefore cannot enter into 20 frame mixups, because if they see a 20 framer, they will launch a reversal.

Things I learned today from reaVer pt.1: all dusts or overheads with 20 frames or more of startup are unusable since my opponent will just see it and reversal me.

I don't know about you, but I think most experienced players already know what they are going for before the knockdown even happened. Millia indeed has the nice disc (that can give your opponent a free DAA), but Johnny's mist can only be used from a knockdown where Johnny is in ready state before the opponent lands rather than any knockdown.

You're missing the point. Trying doing an air reset into Bacchus Sigh or disc and let me know how it goes. Go on, I'll wait.

No, your option is going to be eat uppercut or block uppercut. That is the point here and only after your opponent has discarded the uppercut can you start thinking about mixing him up.

Things I learned today from reaVer pt.2: The downed opponent has the advantage instead of the aggressor since they can DP. By this logic, the best thing to do on their wakeup is to also DP, since all the cards are clearly in the person who can DP's hands. By performing DP oki, you're ensuring that all the cards are in both your hands instead of just his. You both have 100% of the total amount of cards.

Yes, it's a 50/50 mixup where throws can still outprioritize attacks, which means this mixup is in YOUR advantage. Depending on how good your reset is, all they can do is chose between tech and not tech and often that choice is made by force.

But what if they... Air DP after they tech? Wouldn't that reduce your options to "eat uppercut or block uppercut" and completely dismantle anything offensive you had in mind?

There is no high/low mixup on the ground either, unless you have a 20 frame low. For many characters, throw vs attack has been the standard for as far as mixups go, and they have been very successful with it too.

No, I'm forcing them to take a leap into the canyon, which is what I want. I don't want them reading me, I want them to lose.

Things I learned today from reaVer pt.3: Hell, I'll just directly quote this one - "There is no high/low mixup on the ground either, unless you have a 20 frame low." That is a Blade tier quote. I'm not even going to address it.

There's quite a few attacks that have this feature called blowback, it prevents forward teching, your opponent can only go neutral, back and far back, he cannot elude your immediate grasp.

So instead of having three teching options they now have... three teching options. Nice.

Yes, but he has time to do it! If he techs or whatever, he'd have to input the VV before teching, which is a LOT more difficult and a lot more prone to looking stupid.

I'm pretty sure it would look almost as stupid as getting hit by an aerial DP since buffering a DP motion isn't hard at all. Actually, it would look far less stupid than that since the only reason they had the opportunity to aerial DP in the first place is because their opponent handed it to them when they decided, "You know what? Fuck damage. Fuck oki. Fuck meter gain. Fuck positioning. I'd rather gamble on an insanely risky gimmick even though the reward would be far less than the sum of all those things I just said "Fuck" to, since knocking him down would "give him time to think" even though he just had almost an entire combo to do that and this way my options aren't "telegraphed" even though that's completely what they are because why else would I be hurtling through the air towards him like an Angry Bird.

If luck is his only carrying factor, I'm fine with that. The game goes on.

If you choose to allow luck to be a potentially positive factor for your opponent, I'm fine with that as well. I prefer to limit my opponent's options to his own choices by making luck as minimal of a factor as possible so I can win in a contest of skill, but I realize some people out there enjoy randomness too--if they want to play a competitive fighting game like Mario Party, who am I to judge?

But this is as far as I'm choosing to participate in this debate. This isn't 4chan and I'm not going to further engage in a pissing contest with you over something so idiotic. Besides, I'm a fucking A.B.A. player, why am I advocating knockdowns?

[Phrekwenci]

which are the unreactable overheads in the game?

I know just millia half moon move (16 frames)

Zappa's FB is also 16 frames.

[Dont_Explain]

So there's no possible resets where someone is forced to block? Not even in the corner? I'm just curious. I don't play GG (yet) and I know knockdown is strong and all, but I'm sure there is some character that has some sort of ability to reset and still force them to block/react quickly.

[Pichy]

We call those things "Eddie doing FB Drill while mini-Eddie spits goop at you".

[M.Song]

i would just like to mention that roboky's (and i think bridget's) delay wakeup can be done only if he isn't OTGed, which is also a nice thing to do to try and screw with people's wakeup options

[Phrekwenci]

So there's no possible resets where someone is forced to block? Not even in the corner? I'm just curious. I don't play GG (yet) and I know knockdown is strong and all, but I'm sure there is some character that has some sort of ability to reset and still force them to block/react quickly.

Zappa Dog bite + f5S combination maybe?

[mynus]

I-no is the sole exception as she's a strong aerial character with a weak ground game. The other characters you mentioned have good air throws, but that doesn't mean going for resets with them is worth giving up your oki. Take Anji for example: is a reset worth giving up butterfly oki or better yet, FB butterfly unblockable? That's not mentioning characters who get nothing off their air throw aside from a throw's worth of damage. If going for resets is only passable for one character, that doesn't make them a good general idea, but a character specific option which only looks good in contrast to the mediocrity of her other choices. If I-no's ground/oki game was better in AC, resetting would probably still be outweighed by going for the KD. Now that she is much improved in ACR, I'm willing to predict less I-nos are going to be resorting to air resets.

Some of your response is taken out of context, I-no/Anji/Dizzy are examples if characters with strong and well known setups for air grab resets. What I was doing by giving that example was explaining why players would opt not to air tech and take the knockdown instead, because attempting to consistently break the air grab attempt in GG is not in the defensive players favor; not in any relation to whether said characters should go for any reset or not.

That being said, I-no's main meta game has not changed in AC+R. She is still a character with one of the best oki options/setups in the game as well as a strong rush down pixie-type char. There is nothing new in AC+R that would change that to the point that you would not go for resets with her when in a position where it would benefit your damage output/dizzy/corner-carry. Of course from the I-no JP matches currently and from when I played her at the loketests, this was already evident, even though her combo potential did go up.

[Chojin]

I-no frequently goes for midscreen resets for better corner positioning/combo opportunity as well as corner resets by hitting a downed opponent by OTG before note oki which is a reset setup which still nets oki and puts the opponent into a blocking situation in the air, which forces them to burn tension.

I think we might be arguing semantics here. Your definition of a reset apparently includes full combos into knockdown, followed by OTG and mixup. In my mind, that's just straight-up okizime, whereas a reset is ending a combo early (giving up guaranteed damage) to set up a mixup that hopefully results in big damage.

[burningvigor]

I only opt for resets instead of KD is when I'm in a position where KD isn't plausible in said combo, and the damage from the combo wouldn't do much. That, or when I feel I can get away with some gimmicks on the opponent.

That's the beauty of GG, everyone has their own style of play.

[Chojin]

So there's no possible resets where someone is forced to block? Not even in the corner? I'm just curious. I don't play GG (yet) and I know knockdown is strong and all, but I'm sure there is some character that has some sort of ability to reset and still force them to block/react quickly.

I think you're talking about Marvel or Street Fighter style resets, which exist because you can not control when you recover in the air and you have limited options while falling. In those games, it's common to see someone end a combo early and go for an ambiguous crossup, overhead, or throw setup. But in GG, you have more options in the air, e.g. delayed tech, forwards/backwards/neutral tech, or even not teching at all. Because you're nowhere near as helpless (and because characters generally don't have triangle dashes or easy cross-ups), those kind of resets just aren't as powerful.

[Senkei]

GG is still a 2d fighter. Resets work and can be applied it just depends on what character it is and the situation. Saying they are useless and have no relevance is quite ignorant. Depending on items and placement Faust has great resets when finishing up combos and opting for a reset instead of a knockdown. The free-style method of this game allows for that. No need to constrict creativity when people are trying to learn this game.

[M.Song]

Some of your response is taken out of context, I-no/Anji/Dizzy are examples if characters with strong and well known setups for air grab resets. What I was doing by giving that example was explaining why players would opt not to air tech and take the knockdown instead, because attempting to consistently break the air grab attempt in GG is not in the defensive players favor; not in any relation to whether said characters should go for any reset or not.

That being said, I-no's main meta game has not changed in AC+R. She is still a character with one of the best oki options/setups in the game as well as a strong rush down pixie-type char. There is nothing new in AC+R that would change that to the point that you would not go for resets with her when in a position where it would benefit your damage output/dizzy/corner-carry. Of course from the I-no JP matches currently and from when I played her at the loketests, this was already evident, even though her combo potential did go up.

i've fought against dizzy a lot

i agree with you when you say she is one of the chars with strong air grab resets to combos... but for the sake of this argument, i honestly can't say that her best options are from air throw resets as opposed to knockdowns (although it doesn't even seem that you are implying it at all).

to me this whole argument sounded like it started from the idea that resets in GG = i oops i dropped my combo so i'll keep pressing buttons and hope people get hit from teching poorly and the assumption that every char has awesome combos that have big damage and lead to knockdown, but i don't want to do it

also senkei is anyone gonna host in orlando this week... i wanna play gg :<

[reaVer]

But this is as far as I'm choosing to participate in this debate. This isn't 4chan and I'm not going to further engage in a pissing contest with you over something so idiotic. Besides, I'm a fucking A.B.A. player, why am I advocating knockdowns?

Ok, to start off, review your own posts and again explain to me the train of thoughts that causes you to think that I think "It worked on them so they are bads". Because what I've been trying to point out to you is that you essentially called all the GG players on this planet a bunch of noobs; and you can go for that if you want, but from there on out I kinda have to take your credibility into question, which I have up to this point.

As for your 2K comment... Maybe to get a positional advantage, sure. But what are you willing to waste to get there when you started with a move that prorates and crushes your opponents guard bar? I wouldn't expect to get higher than 100 damage and that is way after hitting the diminishing return. So yeah it can go into knockdown, but you can also stop and just 5D him, or throw him, or do a heavier low. Essentially you're attempting to trade combos in such a case which can work or can cause you to get potbustered (as do okis).

Your next piece of text seems to indicate that you're unfamiliar with the concept of MIXUPS, if you expect him to tech, you throw his shiny ass, if he doesn't you're free to continue with a black combo. Again, it is a mixup and it will remain that every step of the game. What he'll simply will not have is time.

Ah and your next piece of text shows you have no concept of defensive MIXUPS. Let me point this out:

1. They are not forced to guard

2. They are not forced to throw

3. They are not forced to reversal

4. They are not forced to burst

5. They are not forced to backdash

Now, they can CHOOSE any of the above options, but you're not forcing this on them; mind you this isn't theory but practice: noone is going to play by your shiny rules if it will put them in a bad spot.

And if you learned that lesson, great! Maybe now you'll cloak your 20 framers in some nice setups!

And no, you cannot do an air reset in mist or disc, the whole point in an air reset is that you don't NEED to; asides that airthrows have 60 recovery frames and thus knockdown guaranteed allowing you to use mist and disc...

Good that you learned that too! I'd love to see how you run up and uppercut everyone. But for those that wish to remain in the real world, just don't bother with any heavy mixups as a meaty, use that meaty to set something real up instead because again, they are much more vulnerable while in pressure/combo than they are in knockdown.

Air dp after they tech? You're doing it wrong, you should've mentioned Slayer coming out with j.214214S which then can get the second hit in; and yes, that has happened. You know how I deal with that? I Gunblaze and he flies into it like a dumbass. Air dps are no different from this and they aren't difficult to deal with either and the punishment on those are soooo hard.

You might not address the issue of that 20 framer vs 20 framer, but I will tell you that any experienced player here knows how to fuzzy guard(not fuzzy mixup, the REAL fuzzy guard) and that means that if you don't have a 20 framer, he has a guarding pattern that will stop whatever you're throwing at him.

Yes, 3 teching options: into the corner, into the corner and into the corner, I think we should vote on which one they will chose!

And again, if they do a VV or any other dragonpunch and you weren't in the vicinity, they will just whiff and you can use almost any move to punish them for it. Add to that, they don't require faultless guard to block and if you delay your throw till 3 or 4 frames till after they tech, they will be hitting your guard rather than your throw.

Ah, nice attempt there. What I said is if luck is their only carrying factor then I'm happy. To clarify: I denied them thinking, I denied them response, I denied them their display of skill and I denied them mixups, quite frankly, I am in the process of denying them their entire gameplan and you are concerned if they get lucky once and get out of my clutches? Do you even play this game?

I think we might be arguing semantics here. Your definition of a reset apparently includes full combos into knockdown, followed by OTG and mixup. In my mind, that's just straight-up okizime, whereas a reset is ending a combo early (giving up guaranteed damage) to set up a mixup that hopefully results in big damage.

In some cases, the reset combos do more damage than their knockdown counterparts. Order Sol for example can knockdown from throws at level 1 (as demonstrated by several combo movies) using a well timed jH-D, djD. There were also other combos like that from different starters, Sanma using l1BHB FRC to get the l2BRP; the l1BHB however takes away damage from the combo. I know that for other characters the game is designed to make knockdown combos do less damage than their techable counterparts and that is also why you see Sols get in that extra SW followed by jPPPPPPPPPP and why you see Johnnies use the 2nd hit of Ensegna.

[mynus]

I think we might be arguing semantics here. Your definition of a reset apparently includes full combos into knockdown, followed by OTG and mixup. In my mind, that's just straight-up okizime, whereas a reset is ending a combo early (giving up guaranteed damage) to set up a mixup that hopefully results in big damage.

That was only 1 of multiple examples I gave which in no way is a definition of a "reset". This is I-no specific, and not at all applicable to the general cast as a whole, nor an attempt to define what a reset situation in GG is. The game is just too dynamic and characters are diverse enough that you cannot just generalize everything. KD forced tech setups, and air-grab setups are not the only types of resets for the cast nor more importantly I-no. It is meant to be an EXAMPLE. Nor am I saying reset setups are stronger than guaranteed oki in this game. I mean c'mon, this is GUILTY GEAR people. You get raped by half the cast and vortexed to death if your knocked down ONCE. Oki and vortex mixups are king in this game. Don't read too much into resets and try to make generalizations in this game when everything is so character specific.

[Chojin]

That was only 1 of multiple examples I gave which in no way is a definition of a "reset". This is I-no specific, and not at all applicable to the general cast as a whole, nor an attempt to define what a reset situation in GG is. The game is just too dynamic and characters are diverse enough that you cannot just generalize everything. KD forced tech setups, and air-grab setups are not the only types of resets for the cast nor more importantly I-no. It is meant to be an EXAMPLE. Nor am I saying reset setups are stronger than guaranteed oki in this game. I mean c'mon, this is GUILTY GEAR people. You get raped by half the cast and vortexed to death if your knocked down ONCE. Oki and vortex mixups are king in this game. Don't read too much into resets and try to make generalizations in this game when everything is so character specific.

Hold on, I didn't say that was your definition of a reset; I said that you consider that specific example a reset, while I don't. The point being that if we can't even agree on the definition, we're obviously not going to agree on how important they are.

[mynus]

Hold on, I didn't say that was your definition of a reset; I said that you consider that specific example a reset, while I don't. The point being that if we can't even agree on the definition, we're obviously not going to agree on how important they are.

Ahh, my mistake then. I included that example because it is not a guaranteed oki setup.

Funny how even though there is an actual GG bible, ppl always have their own opinions and views of what is and isn't. Makes for very interesting debates on theory fighting. I love this damn game lol.

[Dont_Explain]

I think you're talking about Marvel or Street Fighter style resets, which exist because you can not control when you recover in the air and you have limited options while falling. In those games, it's common to see someone end a combo early and go for an ambiguous crossup, overhead, or throw setup. But in GG, you have more options in the air, e.g. delayed tech, forwards/backwards/neutral tech, or even not teching at all. Because you're nowhere near as helpless (and because characters generally don't have triangle dashes or easy cross-ups), those kind of resets just aren't as powerful.

Well now that I think about I probably should have realized it would be pretty hard to make people block after an air tech, but what about popping them off the ground? Can they tech in the air? If not then wouldn't it be ok to do that since it looks like they're knocked some distance back? Personally that would be something I would do if they're kinda close to the corner since both that and knockdown would get them blocking. Then when they're in the corner I would knockdown and use setups that would get me more damage (if they hit) than I would have from midscreen. I feel like there's something I'm missing, but it sounds like it would work to me.

[Cheefoo]

As for your 2K comment... Maybe to get a positional advantage, sure. But what are you willing to waste to get there when you started with a move that prorates and crushes your opponents guard bar? I wouldn't expect to get higher than 100 damage and that is way after hitting the diminishing return. So yeah it can go into knockdown, but you can also stop and just 5D him, or throw him, or do a heavier low. Essentially you're attempting to trade combos in such a case which can work or can cause you to get potbustered (as do okis).

I am confusse. Why would it be better to try 5D after 2K instead of, say, combo it into 2D knockdown, where your opponent is at your mercy? Didn't you say your opponent can react to 20 frame moves and just DP through it? You know, you can DP any time you want, not just during wakeup. If they see you trying your 5D after 2K, why don't they just DP then?

[Chojin]

Well now that I think about I probably should have realized it would be pretty hard to make people block after an air tech, but what about popping them off the ground? Can they tech in the air? If not then wouldn't it be ok to do that since it looks like they're knocked some distance back? Personally that would be something I would do if they're kinda close to the corner since both that and knockdown would get them blocking. Then when they're in the corner I would knockdown and use setups that would get me more damage (if they hit) than I would have from midscreen. I feel like there's something I'm missing, but it sounds like it would work to me.

The only problem with hitting a character OTG (even in the corner) is that they can still tech and jump away. However, most people aren't going to be mashing tech after they've been knocked down, so you can usually get away with it. There are situations for every character where they might want to do this every once in a while to mix things up or get additional carry to the corner, e.g. I-No in the corner with 2K, P note (as mynus said), Jam with 5K, dash, meaty 6H, or Anji doing an OTG butterfly after knockdown against Faust.

That being said, if you go for OTG shenanigans after every knockdown, your opponent is going to start teching more often, which is going to make your life more difficult.

[Digital Watches]

TIL mash DP is a mixup.

[burningvigor]

Well now that I think about I probably should have realized it would be pretty hard to make people block after an air tech, but what about popping them off the ground? Can they tech in the air? If not then wouldn't it be ok to do that since it looks like they're knocked some distance back? Personally that would be something I would do if they're kinda close to the corner since both that and knockdown would get them blocking. Then when they're in the corner I would knockdown and use setups that would get me more damage (if they hit) than I would have from midscreen. I feel like there's something I'm missing, but it sounds like it would work to me.

I don't quite understand what you're saying. But if you hit someone that is grounded, they can tech upwards or back, so it's is not really a guarantee where they will go. It won't be really reliable in pushing someone into the corner. It could work in a sense, but more than likely you will both be at neutral if you did that at midscreen, losing that offensive momentum.

[Mumm-Ra]

which are the unreactable overheads in the game?

I know just millia half moon move (16 frames)

Faust's Drill Cancel j.K is like 13 frames or something

[reaVer]

I am confusse. Why would it be better to try 5D after 2K instead of, say, combo it into 2D knockdown, where your opponent is at your mercy? Didn't you say your opponent can react to 20 frame moves and just DP through it? You know, you can DP any time you want, not just during wakeup. If they see you trying your 5D after 2K, why don't they just DP then?

If you do something like 2K 5D or better yet 2K5S l1BHB FRC 5K5D or something similar you're messing with their concentration. Staying completely focussed is a pain and one of the things players will do is lose concentration when they are in combo, instead they will start thinking about what they can do after the combo, now because the combo is interrupted at an unexpected moment, people will just sit there holding downback and be completely numb to any form of mixup; and if they don't just sit there, they are usually mashing, which on OS's case you could counter by doing 5K236S(which then gives CH, which you can convert with 2S5H sjIAD.P-H SV) and if they counter with low jabs(Sol's 2P for example) you can even go for the 2H and score a CH with that.