Jam Questions and Critique Thread

[Amadeous]

Probably best if I show. Gimme a little bit and I'll post a Jam progress vid so you can look. I know I wanted to how you one anyways.

Alright, I'll keep my eyes peeled for updates then.

After couple of hours practice i can now do the loop on Ky and loop specific on Sol, just focused on them right now because i know i will fight a tonne of them when game comes out lol. Thanks guys!

Good to hear it! Once you start to get it down you'll start to realize more how to do it off of different heights and weights, so keep experimenting.

[Jam_Chan]

Yeah the 5K 2H(1) into 6H was really annoying me the 6H would never juggle noticed you just have to dash only slightly.

[Amadeous]

Right, you'd be surprised how far her 5K reaches. There are times where you really have to reach for the next rep of the loop with her attacks, to the point where it looks like Jam is hardly even touching them with her attacks, but the hitboxes are still valid.

A tip in case you ever come across it: just to be sure you don't get 6K instead of 5K when you're dashing, do 66 4K.

[St1ckBuG]

Just an FYI, the "easiest" characters to practice the loop on are Slayer, Testament, Eddie, Venom, Johnny, Anji and Axl. From there you should move onto different character weights.

To practice on light characters you should practice on Baiken, Jam, Bridget, Dizzy, Ino, Chipp, May and Millia.

To practice on heavy characters you should practice on Potemkin, Robo-Ky, and ABA.

To practice on "weird" hitboxes you should practice on Sol, Order Sol, Faust and Zappa.

When I was practicing the loop I would go into practice mode and random select my opponent. When I could do wall loop off of every starter I would go back to character select and random select again. By doing this and figuring out what works and what doesn't I was able to learn her combo theory better. I made rules in my head so that if I landed a hit I knew what I was allowed to do.

When you can't figure out how to loop a certain character, check the wiki for an answer. If you can't find the answer there, come back here and tell us where you're dropping the combo, off of what starter (and position on the screen), and character. We'll do our best to help. Don't be afraid to ask questions. I was lucky enough to have an extremely good player living 45 minutes away at one point. I picked his brain for months.

[Jam_Chan]

Yeah they should just remove 6K in GGAC+R that would be a great buff LOL.

Also was wondering if doing 5K c5S 5H(3) 6H 6P(1) 5H 6H 5H RC into loop in the corner worth it?

Edited May 31, 2012 by Jam_Chan

[Amadeous]

Speaking of which St1ckbug, I'm still having trouble looping Dizzy. Every other lightweight character I can do fine, but she messes me up.

If she starts out really high and I can catch her with a 2H as she's falling, I can normally run it fine, but if she starts out low then I usually drop it at the second 6H or so. I'm just doing 2H(1) 6H H dash x N, since she's light enough anything in between will cause her to fall out. I'm just wondering if she has a funny hitbox or is even lighter than the rest of the lightweights and that's why I'm having trouble.

I'm planning on going into training mode all night tonight to grind for ECT, so I'll have a better explanation then, but if you have any advice I'd love to hear it.

[Jam_Chan]

got a question for this combo Stuff, 2D, 236SK, charged 236K, Wall Loop (ASANAGI-K) when i do ryujin charge after split kick i end up too close to the wall to do the wall loop so they pop out if i try

[Amadeous]

Try doing the 5K as late as you can, literally the instant just before they hit the ground. Sometimes I prefer to use 2K or 2P when that happens.

[St1ckBuG]

Yeah they should just remove 6K in GGAC+R that would be a great buff LOL.

Also was wondering if doing 5K c5S 5H(3) 6H 6P(1) 5H 6H 5H RC into loop in the corner worth it?

If you're close to the corner, you should hitconfirm into 5H(3) then link that into force break puffball. If you add another rep of the ground loop you won't be able to do a rep of the wall loop without letting them tech, so you should just combo into 2D. Spending 50 meter to RC is just silly. If you can get the knockdown you should always go for it, unless a better combo will kill them or make baiting their burst easier.

Speaking of which St1ckbug, I'm still having trouble looping Dizzy. Every other lightweight character I can do fine, but she messes me up.

If she starts out really high and I can catch her with a 2H as she's falling, I can normally run it fine, but if she starts out low then I usually drop it at the second 6H or so. I'm just doing 2H(1) 6H H dash x N, since she's light enough anything in between will cause her to fall out. I'm just wondering if she has a funny hitbox or is even lighter than the rest of the lightweights and that's why I'm having trouble.

I'm planning on going into training mode all night tonight to grind for ECT, so I'll have a better explanation then, but if you have any advice I'd love to hear it.

You gotta get light characters at that just-right height. It's annoying. Usually what I do if they're too high is catch them with 2H(2) then delay into the 6HH as much as possible. From there, depending on your starter, their height, and your distance from the wall you either want to go into dash 2H(1), 2H(2), or dash 5K.

got a question for this combo Stuff, 2D, 236SK, charged 236K, Wall Loop (ASANAGI-K) when i do ryujin charge after split kick i end up too close to the wall to do the wall loop so they pop out if i try

Try doing the 5K as late as you can, literally the instant just before they hit the ground. Sometimes I prefer to use 2K or 2P when that happens.

The way you describe your problem is a bit odd since there could be two answers, so I'll answer both.

If they're being pulled out of the corner during your wall loop 2H, then what Amadeous said works, but sometimes if they're just high enough you can also walk a few pixels back and they won't come out of the corner during 2H.

If they're falling to the ground before you recover from Asanagi-K, then you're doing that combo too close to the wall and you should be hit-confirming into 5H(3) > FBPB instead.

[Amadeous]

Alright, thanks St1ckbug. Like I said, I'm gonna hit training mode tonight, but I'll go ahead and write a bunch of words as to what I want to hit before ECT comes.

Talking with DI0 a lot as to how I'm gonna get better, and he brought up the issue I have with controlling space. I never really thought about it much as Jam, since her threat zone pretty much just comes down to "immediately surrounding her" and her normals are godlike anyway. I know about pressuring more and being a threat with 2S, but I'm having trouble implementing it. He also mentioned how you would use IABD Gekirin in order to shut down approaches, and I was curious how that was used.

He also mentioned that I have trouble respecting opponents. I figure this would explain why I have such a problem against Sol. I'm not sure if we just have different definitions of the word "respect". I'd just rather hear you out completely on this one, since to me respecting too much leaves you open to free pressure.

Finally, just dealing with pressure. It's strange, some characters I can do fine against (v. Eddie, strangely enough), but against characters like May I can't keep up enough to know when I'm safe to get out. I'm sure it's partly just something I have to learn through matchup experience and playing more, but it's still annoying to get steamrolled and not be able to even poke my way back in.

I guess those are my biggest hurdles right now. My comboing is fine and I can pretty much hitconfirm anything into around 200 damage with resources, which of course makes people hate Jam. I've started to get better mix-ups and corner oki, making sure I can better keep momentum. I've also started to learn how to make use of Jam's movement, instead of just blindly rushing in to attack and finding the gaps where I can safely get in and punish. But those blocks are really still there and I need to level up.

[St1ckBuG]

Sometimes controlling space isn't just making them scared of your best normal because you can potentially do a lot of damage with it, but reminding them that you have other normals or specials that can still hit them.

When I first started playing I practiced stuff off of 5K, 2S, IAD Gekirin, and FBPB. Let's be honest, these are your easiest moves that lead to the most damage. They teach how to deal damage in the easiest way possible, so you usually learn how to use these moves most effectively first. This can sometimes make people believe that in match-ups where all of these options can be easily dealt with are impossible (or near impossible) to win. What can you do when you can't get into 2S range without getting hit first? What can you do when FBPB gets low-profiled or stuffed? What happens when Gekirin can be easily air-thrown or anti-aired? This makes the match-up harder, but it doesn't mean all of your options are gone, you still have other normals and specials at your disposal.

Remember f.S, that normal that is hard to hit-confirm on standing opponents but has really good reach? Remember that move it can gatling into that gives you knockdown? Oh yeah, 2D. What's that other normal that has almost as good reach as 2D and is slightly faster? Oh yeah, 2K. What's that special that's not quite as useful as FBPB but still hurts just as much? Oh, that's right, regular puffball.

You have all these moves that can control space, and potentially lead to some damage and/or knockdown, but they're always considered "not as good". This may be true, but they're still there. You still have options.

f.S can keep them from running at you and can lead into really good damage off of f.S > TK Ryuujin > Asanagi-K, f.S > 2D > 236SK > Asanagi-K or you can just gatling into 2D for a knockdown for that free card or pressure.

What about just 2D? Knockdown is important in GG, and with Jam this can net you either a card, mix-up, or oki (all of which can be scary). If you're really good you can hit-confirm 2D CH > FBPB in the corner or 236SK > Asanagi-K midscreen. This is your farthest reaching normal and that can either start your offensive or be a safe poke to throw out there to keep them from running at you. If it's blocked? Whatever, cancel it into regular puffball, j.2K, or airdash. Against Faust you can do 2D JC > j.K > j.D(1) > Ryuujin > Asanagi-K. Remember that math-up that was hard to get in and use 2S effectively? Your farthest reaching normal can lead into just as much damage.

What about 2K? It can gatling into 2D and reaches just as far.

What it comes down to is the fact that you have these moves that, in your case, reach farther than 2S but can lead to the same stuff (it's just harder to hit-confirm). So how to you implement "controlling space"? You make the opponent respect your options. They're going to run at you knowing they have a move that can beat your 2S pretty easily? Throw out a f.S, 2D, or 2K. They want to just start air-dashing in at you for free? Regular puffball takes care of that, and on CH they're fucking dead.

Controlling space is making them aware of your options. To do this effectively you have to use your options and be able to hit-confirm them well.

When I got to play RF in Japan it made me realize that I had no concept for controlling space. I got in once. Once. He combo'd me maybe 3 times out of 4 matches. The rest of the games were just him running away and keeping me out with his zoning and normals. For the rest of my time in Japan I worked on spacing and confirming off of the normals I listed above. No one mashed in my 2S range during neutral. They FD'd against my FBPB or just right out stuffed it. They understood my frames better than I did. They blocked and punished Gekirin. I got lucky a few times in double blind situations but that was it. In order to win matches I had to take advantage of everything, especially the normals that rely on my execution to be effective.

Moving on...

The reason I use IADB Gekirin? In some match-ups it's great. Scared of Grand Viper? IADB Gekirin. Scared of run up Wild Throw? IADB Gekirin. He either has to commit getting close to me inside of his 2S range and use something like 5K (which opens him up to MY 2S) or he has to do something unsafe like Riot Stomp or run up Gunflame (which either causes him to waste meter if he wants to be safe or commit to getting within my 2D/2S range).

Most of the times I hit him it was either out of Grand Viper to he was going to run up DO SOMETHING. Fuck that. EAD.

May is just annoying. Get used to it. Blocking comes with playing more. You learn as you go. Find out what is giving you trouble and find answers for it.

I'm guess by "respect" he either means you're respecting his options too much or too little. There is a point where you might be too respectful, like letting him get away with non-FRC Gunflames or Riot Stomps. He might also be doing block-strings with huge gaps or staggers. There are answers to his stuff, they just might be answers you're not comfortable with doing yet.

Hope some of this helps.

[Amadeous]

That post is just...ugh yes thank you.

Just...yes.

Going in on training mode now, I'll post with anything that might come up. Thanks a ton.

[excelence]

You gotta get light characters at that just-right height. It's annoying. Usually what I do if they're too high is catch them with 2H(2) then delay into the 6HH as much as possible. From there, depending on your starter, their height, and your distance from the wall you either want to go into dash 2H(1), 2H(2), or dash 5K.

On Dizzy case just focus to get used with which to use 2h(1) or 2h(2) and @amadeous you're right, she has gigantic hitbox, you probably want to set her up a little bit higher than other light character like Baiken ... and afaik, they booth don't need dash 5k to fill up between the loop.

Yeah they should just remove 6K in GGAC+R that would be a great buff LOL.

Also was wondering if doing 5K c5S 5H(3) 6H 6P(1) 5H 6H 5H RC into loop in the corner worth it?

If you're near corner, do 5K > c5S > 5H(3) > FBPB > loop instead, this will do better damage.

Edited June 1, 2012 by excelence

[Star-Demon]

Wow, nice post, stickbug. I'll be taking that note on CH 2D->FBPB - jesus how many corner loops have I given up just not knowing that?

Christ that's scary - you give up one 2D to Jam and you lose half your life at 50 meter...

Things I hear people say:

"Your Jam is scarier than your main."

If you use Jam's speed and combos, she legit scares the hell out of players. I'm not even half the Jam player in comparison with Baiken but other people tell me Jam is much scarier. That's because I spend my time being really aggressive, trying to mindfuck them and pressure them until I know when to use mixup.

"Jam standing still scares me even more."

If they start playing keepaway with bullshit like Dizzy, Axl, or Venom, or try to mash out with Bridget or May, I just peace out and charge cards and they freak.

Uhhh this kind went off topic, but returning -- GATLINGS. GATLINGS GATLINGS.

Knowing Gatlings give you pressure, combos, mixups, and then frame traps. FFFAAACK the specials! FFAAACK the supers!

When I play a new game or character. I press directions and buttons until I figure out what works. (or look up things...)

welp - I should get to work on that hort vid...I'll be streaming it to make it cut easier and comment.

[Jam_Chan]

Seeing this alot in this thread but what is FBPB?

[Amadeous]

Force Break Puffball: 236S D, EX Hyappo Shinshou, etc

[Star-Demon]

Okay! Here ya go.

I was really trying for my best and second best strings, which I'm just gonna admit I don't have the button-discipline for right now. I sealed Jam for a while, and I was just getting it down before I did.

String 1: 5K > 5S > 2S > 2K > 2D > 236236H (or 6HH) - I know I can throw in another normal in there, but I've forgotten.

String 2: 6P > 5S > (or f.5S) > 5H > (trap if you want) FBPB - For the 5H frame trap me Amadeous told me to do.

My terrible technology posted!

Edited June 1, 2012 by Star-Demon

[Amadeous]

Strings on what? Blockstrings? Ground Combos? oh wait nevermind video~

Either way, let's see:

Number 1: If it's a ground string, you want less moves before the super to get more damage out of it. But even then, why use 50 meter for a little bit more damage? Just 2D and go for oki/mix-up/card. If it's a blockstring, ending it in super is just going to get you murdered, obviously. Also, learn how to follow up 236236H. Easiest way is just to Ryujin them out of the air. Dash up 2H(1) 6H H is a bit harder, but good for damage. IAD j.D into stuff is the best, but toughest.

Number 2: Not sure what you mean by "trap". It's a basic ground string, just stuff into 5H(3) FBPB. In blockstrings most people are going to keep blocking after a 5H because they're scared of the 6H. The best trick you can do is 5H(3) and grab, but it's -1 on block so they have to be RIGHT next to you to pull this shit. I suppose you could also do 5H(3) xx 2P tick throw, but I wouldn't do it against anyone with a reversal. At least not, more than once.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Amadeous

[Star-Demon]

Because ITTE! RASHAAAI! :P

Yeah, I know I'm being silly with it. 2D SO GOOD, though.

Ryuujin after that? Really? That actually hits and red beats? I've tried ryuujin after a lot of stuff but wow. I should try that.

and yeah - in stream you were like "frame trap with 5H, star" so since then I just throw out a 5H and people do shit, and get hit *shrug*

And you say I don't listen to you. I bet I have a stream quote someplace! I Copy and paste stuff or write it on index card!

Vid should be done processing.

[Amadeous]

"HAVE A...NICE DAY~!" is good yes. And yeah, one of the most basic things you can do is 236236H 236K charged 236K. Does good damage, but 50% meter and an asanagi-k is pretty costly when Jam can get that off of 25% meter and a card. It's only really good damage off of a super starter, such as reversal super. 140 damage on Sol for 50% meter is really...really bad. I can hit 240 with 25 meter and an asanagi-k.

5H FBPB isn't a frame trap. Most of the time it's airtight! People will just block it and you'll lose 25% meter and look silly.

Check the wiki for your basic ground strings. In general they're just...

stuff -> 5H(3) 6H xx 6P 5H(3) 6H xx 2D or

stuff -> 5H(3) 236SK charged 236K (Asanagi-k) or

stuff -> 5H(3) 236SD (25 meter)

All three of which either give knockdown or setups into the wall loop.

[trunightmare87]

ok it has been a min. since I have played and I still haveing trouble with the wall stick combo. I thank it went something like this: 5p-5k-5s-5hs-2hs(first hit)-6p(first hit)-5hs-6hs hs (I use both hits here)236s (i am useing the force break puff balls) some were in this combo I will drop it and my buddy well beat me for it. so any help will be nice.

Edited June 9, 2012 by trunightmare87
i forgot something opps

[Amadeous]

You're doing too long of a string, and probably end up pushing the opponent out. If you want wall stick from a ground combo, using FBPB, use 5k cS 5H(3) 236SD. The link between 5H(3) and FBPB is tight though, so you'll probably want to go into training mode and practice it.

[Star-Demon]

So how about that puffball question - Since Litchi is getting both S and HS versions, I have to wonder how they are properly used when they are both easily blown up and what they really add to Jam's game besides closing space on KD or hitting people that don't like blocking or pushing buttons?

What would you guys say puffballs add to Litchis and Jam's Game? (FB needs no explanation)

[Amadeous]

Shit, I had this nice guide written up in my head and now I've forgotten it. Let's see if I can't figure it out though.

The Puffball Guide, or "How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Mash that Shit."

Now, disclaimer: this is all Jam-related. I dunno anything about BB or how Litchi's PB might work, we'll know when BBCP comes out. So take that into account while reading this.

Part One: SHIT I KEEP GETTING WRECKED WHEN I MASH PUFFBALL. AMA, HELP.

God you're hopeless. Okay, look. I've been there before. Puffball is a great tool, yes, and if you get a CH with it, congrats you win! The frame data even looks great on it, + on block and everything, and you can cross up with it! Oh man, looks like you can really spam this move ri-WRONG. Pretty much every character in the game has their own move which they can react to Bakushuu with and beat out a puffball. "Well shit," you think, "why would I ever use this move then?" The answer is when they either can't react to your Bakushuu, or when they just can't use their counter.

WOAH DUDE YOU JUST READ MY MIND. ALSO, WHAT?

Okay, first you have to know your matchup. Every character's counter to Bakushuu/PB is different. Sol, for example, has a lot of options. 2D, Volcanic Viper, Gun Flame, even Wild Throw if he's feeling really cheeky. So, you really shouldn't just mash PBs against a smart Sol player, cause they'll expect it, react to your Bakushuu, and you'll just get CH 2D into 50% of your life bar because combos. But there's one point at which he really can't use any of those, and that's when he's in the air! The great part is PB is AUB too, so if he blocks it he's got to spend meter to do so while he's in the air.

THAT STILL SEEMS PRETTY LIMITING. ONLY WHILE THEY'RE IN THE AIR? LAME.

Read my paragraph again, jerk. I said it's different for every character. Take May, for example. Her best answer to PB is 3K, and it leads to great damage! The catch is if she whiffs or you block it, she's wide open and in CH state. You can bait that out, and punish them for it. So know your opponent as well as you know their character, and you can use PB as a threat, making them commit to punish something that you're not going to do, and hurt them for it. Hell, you've got 3 other things you can do OTHER than puffball even if you commit to a Bakushuu.

WAIT WHAT THREE THINGS?

Four, if you want to get technical and use meter. Split Kicks (236S~K) are great at going under attacks like Dizzy's f.S that would normally shut down approaching with Bakushuu, and they also come out a bit faster and hit much lower than puffballs. Read a Sol's 2D for instance, stop short with Split Kicks and whoops he's staggered (bonus points for having a card charged up and taking off 60% of his lifebar). Slide (236S~P) is another option, going through basically all attacks that are aimed around the body. It's only above-the-knee invul though so it'll still lose to sweeps and the like, and you can still be grabbed out of it. Actually you only have one option to beat out those things. You can always Choujin (236P) out of a Bakushuu, and even FRC it to go flying forward. If they've committed to an attack to hit you out of PB you can usually get a CH j.H out of it and combo from there into KD, it's great.

MAN NOW I CAN MASH BAKUSHUU GREAT THANKS BRO

No, you can't.

WAIT WHAT YOU JUST SAID-

Bakushuu is a risk. Whenever you're dashing in, no matter which option you pick coming out of it, you're guessing. Unless you're really good and you know your opponent well enough to know what they'll commit to, you can't really use it as a tool to get it. If you want to get in, just run. Jam's dash is the fastest in the game at top speed, doesn't put you in CH state, you can FD it at any time to make it safe, it gains more meter than a Bakushuu, and you have more options coming out of it.

OH. I SEE, YOU'RE SAYING I NEED TO WORK MORE ON MY FUNDAMENTALS, LIKE SPACING AND POKING, INSTEAD OF JUST RELYING ON ONE STRONG TOOL OF MY CHARACTER'S. IT'S A STRONG MOVE OF HERS, BUT ONLY THREATENING WHEN COMBINED WITH INTELLIGENT PLAY AND THE ABILITY TO USE IT AT THE RIGHT TIME. THANKS AMA.

[Star-Demon]

Wow, lol. Good shit! Thanks!

I was thinking about air. Good to see it's not just my imagination.

Split kick works out a lot, but I don't really have any combos for after, yet.

On Baiken I tried to 2K Bakushuu a lot, but stickbug didn't let me do that shit. Maybe I need a better reaction answer. 2K very fast though.

I'm getting the memory for choosing either Jam's mawarikomi or chojin (flip). Also good to see it's not just my imagination.

Short answer: FUNDAMENTALS

So for Litchi I imagine "stupid midrange air behavior" will be good stuff for her puffballs.