Lord Knight's GAMEPLAY RELATED QUESTIONS ONLY thread (EX edition)

[TD]

opinions are opinions and thats what was asked for, amirite?

... anyway, lk thanks for what you said a few days ago, l've been playing everyone and its going well so far.

[toanenadiz]

It's like LK isn't allowed to have his own opinion...

Anyways, I might as well ask you this too since you play Tao LK. What do you think is the most important thing a new Tao should be focusing on learning?

[Lord Knight]

It's like LK isn't allowed to have his own opinion...

Anyways, I might as well ask you this too since you play Tao LK. What do you think is the most important thing a new Tao should be focusing on learning?

Make sure you can do corner combo, combos off all throws, and know what characters that Tao can do 6B > full combo to. IIRC it's Litchi, Haz, Noel(?), don't know who else off hand. Also make sure you learn one simple hitconfirm that you can do off all random air to air hits, you don't have to do the empire ones, just something simple until you get used to her. Tao is hard to get used to, it takes like 2 weeks to a month if you're playing her casually.

You know what happened everytime an Arakune did that to me?

5K happened

To that Arakune.

On accident.

Stop underplaying how much thought other characters take. It's insulting to the new players learning them, to the veteran users, and your intelligence alike.

Glad you got lucky, and sorry for everyone else, I guess? There are characters that take skill, and there are good, great, and world class players of dumb characters, but dumb is just dumb. You might want to take a step back and think about BB's cast, and fighting games in general.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Lord Knight

[mAc Chaos]

Hakumen is dumb.

He does triple my damage off all his hits, gains meter for literally doing nothing, gets super high damage off his mixups (compared to me getting high damage off only one of my mixups). I only cared about D when it used to do Noel level damage for just throwing out jD and crossing your fingers, this game it's just ok. Like I told you before, I wouldn't care too much, but they keep nerfing my character since "omg oki iz 2 gud fff no fair" but they give other characters shit like this? Ragna's been doing 4k off his overhead since CT, Hakumen will break 4.5k off Tsubaki forever (and don't try to say "well it costs meter!", because he gets meter for doing NOTHING), but Litchi gets a good combo off her overheads for one version and the developers go "whoa whoa, we fucked up, can't have this"? I don't get it. His combos off pretty much every hit all carry ridiculously far to the corner, which we all know is prime status in CS2/CSEX.

On a related note, I do think Litchi vs Hakumen is even if you're a world class player.

I knew you were going to say that his damage is too high, and I was thinking of his corner carry too, but he's top tier this time so I don't disagree. But what I was disagreeing with was that his counters made him dumb, which is what was mentioned. So it sounds like you agree with me. Whenever people start complaining about his counters I start getting flashbacks to "nerf 720".

Also, even though he gets a lot of damage off his hits, I think he's still less dumb, than say, Arakune or Hazama or Valkenhyne. He doesn't have mechanics that "break" the game in a way against a lot of characters, just lots of fundamentals that pay off well. That's pretty much how his character was always designed from the beginning, except instead of doing 5k off like 4 hits like in CT he does 5k off like 10 hits.

Edited March 28, 2012 by mAc Chaos

[Errol]

LK.

I feel like, compared to other fighting games I have played, BB is more about playing your own game (pressure/setups/combos) and about researching what each individual character can do so you can break out of their patterns. Matchup knowledge is extremely important. I feel like this leads to some amount of success just grinding in training mode, without really having to have good fundamentals (myself included). I've seen numerous times that people like KOF13 because of how different the characters are, but clearly all of the characters in that are far more similar to each other than characters in BB are to each other.

Any thoughts?

[zeth07]

Arakune, Noel, Bang, Mu, Tao, Hakumen, Carl and Ragna are the dumbest characters.

I'm surprised you don't think Valkenhayn is dumb.

I'd say Litchi and Rachel are dumb as well. I could even consider Hazama, Jin, Lambda, Tager, Platinum dumb in some regards.

Makoto, Tsubaki, and Relius are ok in this game I guess.

I just don't see how Bang is considered dumb while some of those other characters I mentioned aren't.

[destruction_adv]

Really? Bang is so herp derp, it's obscene.

I really don't get it, if I did I wouldn't have asked. Also, I haven't played CSEX yet.

[Guymam]

I knew you were going to say that his damage is too high, and I was thinking of his corner carry too, but he's top tier this time so I don't disagree. But what I was disagreeing with was that his counters made him dumb, which is what was mentioned. So it sounds like you agree with me. Whenever people start complaining about his counters I start getting flashbacks to "nerf 720".

Also, even though he gets a lot of damage off his hits, I think he's still less dumb, than say, Arakune or Hazama or Valkenhyne. He doesn't have mechanics that "break" the game in a way against a lot of characters, just lots of fundamentals that pay off well. That's pretty much how his character was always designed from the beginning, except instead of doing 5k off like 4 hits like in CT he does 5k off like 10 hits.

Hazama is stupid in the wrong way.

Hakumen is stupid in the right way. Amazing corner carry, conversion into damage or at least a better situation off of every hit, amazing buttons, meter gain for doing nothing, tools for every situation, general braindead shit. Is it ever really a bad idea to do Hotaru on someone else's wakeup? Hazama and Valkenhayn don't break the game. They move. That's their thing. Arakune takes away your turn, his mechanic is one that doesn't allow the other player to play BB if he gets it going.

As for Hakumen taking lots of "fundamentals" it don't take a lot of skill to hit confirm most of his shit. He's dumb, and fairly auto-pilot. People just kind of need to deal with the fact that he's stupid now.

[Romeyurhomey]

I'm surprised you don't think Valkenhayn is dumb.

I'd say Litchi and Rachel are dumb as well. I could even consider Hazama, Jin, Lambda, Tager, Platinum dumb in some regards.

Makoto, Tsubaki, and Relius are ok in this game I guess.

I just don't see how Bang is considered dumb while some of those other characters I mentioned aren't.

Makoto, Tsubaki and Relius are only ok because their ass in this game compared to others. When Bang gets 4seals and does FRKZ he turns god status and even without it his normals are good.

[Zeero]

this game is dumb

[LuminAbyss]

Glad you got lucky, and sorry for everyone else, I guess? There are characters that take skill, and there are good, great, and world class players of dumb characters, but dumb is just dumb. You might want to take a step back and think about BB's cast, and fighting games in general.

I'm not denying some characters are easier or simpler (hello I play Ragna) than others. But...

A lot of people will call something dumb (a character, a move, whatever) because the other person is using it well, therefore making it hard to beat. And using it well requires thought. Lots of thought. Beating it also requires a lot of thought. When there is no thought behind something, it's easy to beat. That was my problem with your example for Arakune.

Putting no thought behind something is different from playing "randomly". That's a gameplan, to weigh all the different options in a given situation (especially if you've experienced this situation multiple times through your battles), and bank on the one that you believe will catch your opponent off guard the most and net you decent reward. See also, "Mix-up", "Mind games", etc. You can't rely on the same answer over and over again, however. Real randomness (i.e. the other guy has no idea what he's doing) can be annoying yes, but not hard to beat. True "dumb" things are tools you can just fall back on and autopilot with the mental activity of a comatose patient and still win with. BB doesn't really have that anymore. Every tool has an answer (or several) to it, every situation has multiple ways it can turn out, and while some situations favor one player over another, there is still a way out.

Not a lot of fighting games have true dumb things anymore. It's all just highly opinionated from player's experiences now.

Whatever, I don't win a lot and I'm not a good player by any means, so this all probably doesn't mean much coming from me. I'll just drop it.

[WolfCrimson]

Hazama is stupid in the wrong way.

Hakumen is stupid in the right way. Amazing corner carry, conversion into damage or at least a better situation off of every hit, amazing buttons, meter gain for doing nothing, tools for every situation, general braindead shit. Is it ever really a bad idea to do Hotaru on someone else's wakeup? Hazama and Valkenhayn don't break the game. They move. That's their thing. Arakune takes away your turn, his mechanic is one that doesn't allow the other player to play BB if he gets it going.

As for Hakumen taking lots of "fundamentals" it don't take a lot of skill to hit confirm most of his shit. He's dumb, and fairly auto-pilot. People just kind of need to deal with the fact that he's stupid now.

Hakumen does take fundamentals, or should I say one type of fundamental, because his normals are slower, or have longer recovery, than most of the cast's similar normals and you need to play footsies to effectively get hits, because his movement is actually not that great.

The "gaining meter for doing nothing" argument is an incomplete argument, because when you see the whole picture, Haku's meter gain system actually goes against the notion of Hakumen being braindead. He starts out with 1 magatama and gets meter passively, i.e., for doing nothing. However, all of his specials require meter, which are what really give Haku his damage, mixup and tools, so at the start of the match (and whenever he doesn't have meter), he cannot take the offensive initiative, and doesn't have his tools, which gives the opponent the neutral advantage for that time to apply his own mixups, pressure etc. etc. He cannot use them indefinitely, due to magatama being a limited resource, so a Haku needs to carefully plan how and when to use his tools. This actually requires smart play. And yes, a hotaru on opponent's wakeup is kinda dumb, because (assuming that the opponent knows how to play) blocking on wakeup is a smart thing to do in this game, and you'd be wasting meter.

Currently though, I agree that there is a problem with how much meter he's getting, or rather that he has no heat gain reduction penalty off of whiffed specials. But that's it.

[Dont_Explain]

You know what happened everytime an Arakune did that to me?

5K happened

To that Arakune.

On accident.

Stop underplaying how much thought other characters take. It's insulting to the new players learning them, to the veteran users, and your intelligence alike.

Is Arakune in CH state right after he backdashes? If not, I would love to know how you hit 5K.

Also why all this damn Haku hate people? Lets just all go back to hating Ragna.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Dont_Explain

[Star-Demon]

Oh my god, not this again. Just because you have to actually stop and think for once instead of brain dead autopiloting your usual tricks against one of the characters doesn't mean they're dumb or broken or something. It means you have to actually play the game. If you're going to talk about damage or something like that then that makes more sense.

I have to agree with this. Hakumen has counters similar to Testaments and Axl's, yet BAIKEN OHMAHGAWD. Everyone calls my main a cheap character...but it you know what do to you can just walk all over Baiken's, Axl's and Testament's counters. Hakumen is no exception.

The only thing that made sense out of all this is that: Yes, Hakumen gets DAMAGE off anything.

Do a combo or two, sit on that shit.

Edited March 28, 2012 by Star-Demon

[C0R]

Let's all ask LK questions and then tell him why he's wrong! As if his personal opinion based on his long fighting game experience is inconceivable!

He already explained the reasoning behind his statement. Don't take advantage of this thread as an excuse to tout your personal weekly self-revelation about fighting games and the universe, that goes for everyone, it gets this thread closed. Again.

[StarGazer]

Players will just keep defending their characters

I have a question LK. How can i beat this using this ? I can't do a mix up without being afraid of eating her D, I just ate a meterless 6600 from her 4D in the corner today :/

Also, I keep getting that Makoto vs Noel is 5:5 from everyone, but i really think its worse than that, even captain Goro suffers badly from Noel... What you think of the match up?

[Wander]

or rather that he has no heat gain reduction penalty off of whiffed specials. But that's it.

I thought specials that take 2 or more stars have cooldown no matter if they hit or missed.

[Dusk Thanatos]

A lot of people will call something dumb (a character, a move, whatever) because the other person is using it well, therefore making it hard to beat. And using it well requires thought. Lots of thought. Beating it also requires a lot of thought. When there is no thought behind something, it's easy to beat. That was my problem with your example for Arakune.

One way in which something can be legitimately dumb is that something is hard to beat AND autopilot as shit. Like, let's say your chara has a 16F safe overhead they can gatling for free. Why would you ever /not/ use that shit? You could autopilot it all day and beat people into the ground, and just run unreactable 50/50 high/lows in the middle of your blockstrings all day.

A good example of a legitimately dumb move was CS2 Tsubaki's D Shield Rush. It covered shittons of space, practically anti-aired anything in its way, and almost always traded in your favor -- and if your opponent blocked, you were plus. Once you had one charge, every chara had to suddenly watch out for it and respect this fucking massive amount of space. The only thing that kept it from being completely and utterly stupid was the charge cost.

[KayEff]

are we seriously still discussing about what dumb means

dumb doesn't need a definition or any sort of technical explanation. i mean christ, what's considered dumb is completely subjective if anything.

i'm gonna start handing out infractions to people who continue to discuss this and to anyone who's not taking this topic the way LK intended. just ask your questions, and if you're not happy with LK's answers, fucking deal with it.

christ.

[psycofang2]

I thought specials that take 2 or more stars have cooldown no matter if they hit or missed.

its does. 120 frames i believe.

anyway i dont really have much of a question to ask you lk, never have probably never will.

this is my not so much of a real gameplay question: when you get better how do you know? what does it take to get better and "be" better? not just playing others, this helps only so far but you yourself in general, how do you get gdlk rection, abare, and hit confirms that alot of elitists love to spout about? (not calling anyone out)

id like to know realistically what it is that makes a good player a good player and what types of training and growth. ive been practicing my reaction speeds, ive gotten much better, ive practiced my hit confirms, also so much better now. and yet in the ned i never "feel' like ive gotten better. i always feel theres something else i am missing?

abare? well im no much of a random person. but ive been trying to be within reason.

do you think you are good? why? what do you have that seperates you from others? besides the obvious. i honestly believe there are more underlying fundamentals and reasons, thoughts or so, that make a player better than others. answer at your convenience.

dont say you arent good otherwise ppl wouldnt flock to you so much asking the same questions over and over.

Edited March 28, 2012 by psycofang2

[destruction_adv]

Let's all ask LK questions and then tell him why he's wrong! As if his personal opinion based on his long fighting game experience is inconceivable!

I'm not saying he's wrong, I just want to know why Bang is dumb so I can start abusing it.

Also, as you can see, I sigged the earlier comment about Bang.

[Guymam]

Hakumen does take fundamentals, or should I say one type of fundamental, because his normals are slower, or have longer recovery, than most of the cast's similar normals and you need to play footsies to effectively get hits, because his movement is actually not that great.

The "gaining meter for doing nothing" argument is an incomplete argument, because when you see the whole picture, Haku's meter gain system actually goes against the notion of Hakumen being braindead. He starts out with 1 magatama and gets meter passively, i.e., for doing nothing. However, all of his specials require meter, which are what really give Haku his damage, mixup and tools, so at the start of the match (and whenever he doesn't have meter), he cannot take the offensive initiative, and doesn't have his tools, which gives the opponent the neutral advantage for that time to apply his own mixups, pressure etc. etc. He cannot use them indefinitely, due to magatama being a limited resource, so a Haku needs to carefully plan how and when to use his tools. This actually requires smart play. And yes, a hotaru on opponent's wakeup is kinda dumb, because (assuming that the opponent knows how to play) blocking on wakeup is a smart thing to do in this game, and you'd be wasting meter.

Currently though, I agree that there is a problem with how much meter he's getting, or rather that he has no heat gain reduction penalty off of whiffed specials. But that's it.

Take one more look at his frame data. His normals aren't slow nor do they have very long recovery. His meter gain from combos is also very high. And he's not completely helpless without meter.

[WolfCrimson]

I thought specials that take 2 or more stars have cooldown no matter if they hit or missed.

OK, I just did a test on training mode and it turns out I was wrong, cooldown is present both on hit and miss, but ti feels longer on hit because of the hitstop of the hit, whereas the whiffed special seemed to only stop during the move itself, but because of no hitstop, it felt almost immediate.

Guymam: I just did, his moves are slower compared to the rest. his 5B has 10 frames startup, and his 5C has 14 frames startup. Compare that to most of the rest of the cast's 5Bs and 5Cs. He's comparatively slower.

Edited March 28, 2012 by WolfCrimson

[A.X.I.S.]

LK how come you feel Bang is derp?

He seems pretty ok from what I see outside of the absurdity of FRKZ.

[Sophisticat]

Ok, asking Q's, then (and I'll throw out there that I agree that Haku is easier to win with now. @Sg: he was B-Tier in CS1 and everyone else was dumber. ). This might be beyond the purview of this thread, but...

1) I've been interested in attempting to break down matches by statistical performance the same way other sports (such as Baseball) incorporate stats to improve or determine performance. Would you have a rough idea of what stats could be useful?

For example:

- Win/loss ratio (global)

- W/L ratio per matchup

- Efficient use of X move (did you get hit out of it/did it hit the other guy/did it whiff?/etc.)

- # of combos (not) dropped.

- Capacity to hit confirm.

- [...]

etc.

2) Similarly, I've been very interested in psychological risk/reward valuations as it pertains to fighters, and how can you improve your game by finding an optimal risk/reward profile for your particular style. So in a tournament setting, how would you evaluate your propensity towards taking risks?

For example, do you play more cautiously in a live match, or do you attempt to bring your relaxed mindset in casual games as this may be more beneficial in the long run? (As opposed to simply using a style because it's mechanically superior, but might not be comfortable with)

-----

The reason I ask these questions is because I believe current methods for practice and play in regards to performance are primitive. Much, much more could be done to analyze performance and bring FGs to a higher level if it ever hits the big-time in e-sports. There is the issue that these questions may in effect not apply to BB as much as a game like GG since BB is deemed too simple. Whatever.

Btw, I'm not actually expecting a comprehensive answer or anything since these are complex questions, so your general thoughts alone would be plenty.