Lord Knight's GAMEPLAY RELATED QUESTIONS ONLY thread (EX edition)

[mAc Chaos]

Oh my god, not this again. Just because you have to actually stop and think for once instead of brain dead autopiloting your usual tricks against one of the characters doesn't mean they're dumb or broken or something. It means you have to actually play the game. If you're going to talk about damage or something like that then that makes more sense.

EDIT: So I reread the last post just now after the red haze left my vision from reading the first few words in the post, and it's not as bad since it's Litchi related. But still, in general, my point stands.

[LuminAbyss]

Or you could just bait them like you bait anything else.

Refer to Mac's above post.

[C0R]

Jump B is pretty dumb and 5b is pretty dumb, but that's all I really mind about Hakumen.

µ gets wayyyyy too much damage off mashy normals, and her overall design encourages risky decision making, so I'd say she's a pretty dumb character too.

[Eshi]

Oh my god, not this again. Just because you have to actually stop and think for once instead of brain dead autopiloting your usual tricks against one of the characters doesn't mean they're dumb or broken or something. It means you have to actually play the game. If you're going to talk about damage or something like that then that makes more sense.

EDIT: So I reread the last post just now after the red haze left my vision from reading the first few words in the post, and it's not as bad since it's Litchi related. But still, in general, my point stands.

Get butthurt more? You have to "actually play the game" against every character because every match-up matters. Hakumen's drive is a huge factor of his match-ups, it can shut down a lot of options, especially on reaction, that no other character can replicate. Therefore, that is my guess.

[SansProtocol]

Oh my god, not this again. Just because you have to actually stop and think for once instead of brain dead autopiloting your usual tricks against one of the characters doesn't mean they're dumb or broken or something. It means you have to actually play the game. If you're going to talk about damage or something like that then that makes more sense.

EDIT: So I reread the last post just now after the red haze left my vision from reading the first few words in the post, and it's not as bad since it's Litchi related. But still, in general, my point stands.

Hakumen's still dumb. LK is still mad he doesn't have CS1 Litchi where he could make people really hurt for mistakes. The world goes on.

[Fugu]

Oh my god, not this again. Just because you have to actually stop and think for once instead of brain dead autopiloting your usual tricks against one of the characters doesn't mean they're dumb or broken or something. It means you have to actually play the game. If you're going to talk about damage or something like that then that makes more sense.

EDIT: So I reread the last post just now after the red haze left my vision from reading the first few words in the post, and it's not as bad since it's Litchi related. But still, in general, my point stands.

I'm going to go on a limb and say that LK's reason for claiming that Hakumen is dumb is not simply that he cannot autopilot oki against him. In fact, when can you ever autopilot oki against good players?

[Skye]

Quite often in fact...

Let's get back on topic plox.

[severin]

you heard it here first, braindead autopilot is what gets you tournament wins, also kokushii is just another dumb autopilot trick, instead of a staple of a character's gameplan. also, last I recall, litchi still has to "play the game" in order to get you to the corner

on a more serious note, I think hakumen has simply too many tools that lead into too much damage too safely, while counters/fumajin simply negate a lot of the options of the rest of the cast. he has superior normals, each very good at what they do, that are relatively easy to hitconfirm into good corner carry midscreen, and high damage in the corner, with new 6A keeping them from rolling or not teching. un-nerfing his meter gain means he has access to more specials more often, with buffed kishuu also giving him new options against the zoners in the cast. there's a LOT going for this character.

also j.B

inb4 lk puts everything a lot more eloquently and in a more thought-out manner

Edited March 28, 2012 by severin

[Sophisticat]

Haters gonna hate.

I, for one, revel in my character finally getting some time in the spotlight. Keep the rage flowing.

-----

But that said, I have to wonder: are these characters called "dumb" because they're high-/top-tier? Does this mean you have to be low-tier in order to be "smart"? What if everyone is on a level playing field, does this automatically make the whole cast dumb, or does the game suddenly become "smart"? And how does a top character get the spot without being "dumb"?

Something doesn't feel right here since the tiers are just about the tightest they've ever been. Either most of the cast is "dumb", or there's a more fundamental problem with the game's mechanics. Or it's something else.

Anyway, I think Hakumen forces smart on others since he's one of the few characters you can't autopilot against. In turn, the opponent has to be more creative and use more baiting and better spacing. So in the end, it could be argued Hakumens have to deal with the craftiest of all players! He may be mechanically dumb, but you certainly can't autopilot with him!

[Nakkiel]

I, for one, revel in my character finally getting some time in the spotlight.

did you miss CS1

[WolfCrimson]

Haku has a few good normals, a good counter, good damage off of a lot of hits and corner carry. But he's limited

by the fact that he's heavily resource (magatama) dependant, for both mixup and damage, and his movement is second worst in the game. In EX though, his meter gain got buffed, in that whiffed specials don't incur heat gain reduction, special moves that do land have shorter heat gain reduction than in previous games. IMO Haku would be perfect if they made his whiffed specials also cause heat gain reduction like before.

[huey253]

litchi is a dumb character too... sorry bro

I pretty much agree with Severin... although counters usually only negate the use of certain types of oki, but aren't as big of a threat in blockstrings...

[LuminAbyss]

Fighting games are created through a synthesis reaction of the two elements Du (Dumbine) and Bs (Bullshitanium).

We must accept this.

[WolfCrimson]

Fighting games are created through a synthesis reaction of the two elements Du (Dumbine) and Bs (Bullshitanium).

We must accept this.

Looks like someone finally got his Bachelor's degree in Inorganic Chemistry.

So LK, do you know a way to properly train to tech green grabs? I tried using the new feature in EX training mode where you can record multiple recordings and then randomise when the dummy uses them, but I feel it didn't do me any good. Do I need a player two to help me with this?

[STenSatsu]

Honestly that seems like the best way. Just record Ragna doing dash 6b, dash 2b, or dash throw and stand next to him with yourself in the corner. That's about as little notice for a green throw as you'll get and should help teching them on reaction.

[Airk]

on a more serious note, I think hakumen has simply too many tools that lead into too much damage too safely, while counters/fumajin simply negate a lot of the options of the rest of the cast. he has superior normals, each very good at what they do, that are relatively easy to hitconfirm into good corner carry midscreen, and high damage in the corner, with new 6A keeping them from rolling or not teching. un-nerfing his meter gain means he has access to more specials more often, with buffed kishuu also giving him new options against the zoners in the cast. there's a LOT going for this character.

also j.B

You've explained why Hakumen is too good (aka "top tier") but not why he is "dumb" IMHO. The only person who can really answer why LK thinks Hakumen is dumb is LK. Speculation is meaningless.

Characters CAN be "dumb" and low tier, but people are much less likely to whine about it.

Most people tend to use dumb to mean "I don't like how I have to play against character X; I want to play the game like A but if I do that against character X, I lose." Which is, when viewed objectively, a really stupid statement in fighting games, where the whole point is to adapt to your opponent's stuff. I like C0R's definition better - a "dumb" character is one that encourages the person playing them to take tons of high risk actions, because the rewards they get are sufficient to override that risk. Hakumen, however, definitely does not fit in this category. In fact, pretty much the only character I can think of that met this criteria was CS2 Noel, though apparently EX Mu is bad like that too.

[KayEff]

a "dumb" character is one that encourages the person playing them to take tons of high risk actions, because the rewards they get are sufficient to override that risk

then by your definition, carl must not be a dumb character, since brio entails little to no risk whatsoever

[LuminAbyss]

Dumb is usually subjective when used in discussions. However there are some objective dumb things.

Why would a 7 frame DP need 18 frames of invul? Used to be 7 frames with 21 invul and 12 active frames. Of course, there are answers to it, ways around it, and you could always just flat out bait it, but that doesn't make it any less dumb. Every character has some things like that. In just about any fighting game ever.

That's why it's pointless discussing it, and instead we should be discussing how to beat those things in order to have an easier time in matches. Everything has an answer. EVERYTHING.

So can we just drop this dumb topic? It could potentially help us all become better players.

Edited March 28, 2012 by LuminAbyss

[Lord Knight]

Also did daisahrin count as something dumb that needed to be eliminated or do you personally feel it was fair and was required as compensation for the non RC DP thing?

LK What characters is tetsu's Ab2 ender unusable? I personally can't do it consistently enough to go around the whole cast and I remember you saying it isn't universal.

I don't know, I just know it's not universal, I do easy mode stuff.

Daisharin was super retarded in CS2, you were getting 4700/5700 for high/low respectably and getting the meter back to do it again. Like I said, I don't mind Daisharin getting nerfed, OR lowering Litchi's damage, but I feel like doing both was too much.

The rest I can agree with but, can you explain why Hakumen is dumb?

Oh my god, not this again. Just because you have to actually stop and think for once instead of brain dead autopiloting your usual tricks against one of the characters doesn't mean they're dumb or broken or something. It means you have to actually play the game. If you're going to talk about damage or something like that then that makes more sense.

EDIT: So I reread the last post just now after the red haze left my vision from reading the first few words in the post, and it's not as bad since it's Litchi related. But still, in general, my point stands.

Hakumen is dumb.

He does triple my damage off all his hits, gains meter for literally doing nothing, gets super high damage off his mixups (compared to me getting high damage off only one of my mixups). I only cared about D when it used to do Noel level damage for just throwing out jD and crossing your fingers, this game it's just ok. Like I told you before, I wouldn't care too much, but they keep nerfing my character since "omg oki iz 2 gud fff no fair" but they give other characters shit like this? Ragna's been doing 4k off his overhead since CT, Hakumen will break 4.5k off Tsubaki forever (and don't try to say "well it costs meter!", because he gets meter for doing NOTHING), but Litchi gets a good combo off her overheads for one version and the developers go "whoa whoa, we fucked up, can't have this"? I don't get it. His combos off pretty much every hit all carry ridiculously far to the corner, which we all know is prime status in CS2/CSEX.

On a related note, I do think Litchi vs Hakumen is even if you're a world class player.

I gotta ask, why Bang? What makes him dumb?

Really? Bang is so herp derp, it's obscene.

Haters gonna hate.

I, for one, revel in my character finally getting some time in the spotlight. Keep the rage flowing.

-----

But that said, I have to wonder: are these characters called "dumb" because they're high-/top-tier? Does this mean you have to be low-tier in order to be "smart"? What if everyone is on a level playing field, does this automatically make the whole cast dumb, or does the game suddenly become "smart"? And how does a top character get the spot without being "dumb"?

Something doesn't feel right here since the tiers are just about the tightest they've ever been. Either most of the cast is "dumb", or there's a more fundamental problem with the game's mechanics. Or it's something else.

Anyway, I think Hakumen forces smart on others since he's one of the few characters you can't autopilot against. In turn, the opponent has to be more creative and use more baiting and better spacing. So in the end, it could be argued Hakumens have to deal with the craftiest of all players! He may be mechanically dumb, but you certainly can't autopilot with him!

The characters are just dumb, you can play without thinking too much, be pretty random, abare like crazy and still win.

Your looking too hard for the answer. Really, no one wants to think their character is dumb. Everyone wants people to think they are playing a super hard, high skill character that's hard to win with, but it's simply not true. It's fine to play a dumb character, it's just part of the game.

I can easily translate "Anyway, I think Hakumen forces smart on others since he's one of the few characters you can't autopilot against. In turn, the opponent has to be more creative and use more baiting and better spacing. So in the end, it could be argued Hakumens have to deal with the craftiest of all players! He may be mechanically dumb, but you certainly can't autopilot with him!" to "Hakumen is so easy, since I have D and 2 star Hotaru I can just scare my opponent into never attacking me, I gain meter for doing nothing, and I don't even really have to abare, I can just sit on my shit until I have enough to either do 3k+ off jA or hit them with some kind of jB/Hotaru mixup for 5000+, then turtle until I win".

Anyways, enough about this, I didn't know my opinion of dumb would turn into this lol.

Looks like someone finally got his Bachelor's degree in Inorganic Chemistry.

So LK, do you know a way to properly train to tech green grabs? I tried using the new feature in EX training mode where you can record multiple recordings and then randomise when the dummy uses them, but I feel it didn't do me any good. Do I need a player two to help me with this?

Just play matches, and make sure you use OS throw.

[Skye]

The characters are just dumb, you can play without thinking too much, be pretty random, abare like crazy and still win.

While I agree on many levels that Arakune is a dumb character, I seriously don't think it's for these reasons. Arakune is a character that requires a lot of thought and he doesn't really have any effective abare without creating huge risks that often outweigh the reward.

[Lord Knight]

Arakune is easy, just mash backstep, only a couple of characters can stop it 100% in a really damaging way, just turtle and don't take risks and you'll curse them eventually, then they can't even play the game against you. Do 10k after hitting them with mixup and you win. He doesn't take much thought, he's just the opposite of the rest, you can't really mash with him, you just take no risks besides backdash and you're fine, it's always been that way.

[LuminAbyss]

Hakumen is dumb.

Really? Bang is so herp derp, it's obscene.

The characters are just dumb, you can play without thinking too much, be pretty random, abare like crazy and still win.

LK, stop.

I believed in you.

#butIdon'tbelieveinyouanymore

Arakune is easy, just mash backstep, only a couple of characters can stop it 100% in a really damaging way, just turtle and don't take risks and you'll curse them eventually, then they can't even play the game against you. Do 10k after hitting them with mixup and you win. He doesn't take much thought, he's just the opposite of the rest, you can't really mash with him, you just take no risks besides backdash and you're fine, it's always been that way.

You know what happened everytime an Arakune did that to me?

5K happened

To that Arakune.

On accident.

Stop underplaying how much thought other characters take. It's insulting to the new players learning them, to the veteran users, and your intelligence alike.

Edited March 28, 2012 by LuminAbyss

[Guymam]

Souji thinks this game is a kusoge. :<

[Lord Knight]

Like I said, it's fine to play a dumb character, they just exist, it can't be stopped. I'm sfine with playing Litchi because she's fun, the character I like the most, and I think I can win with her, but I've always felt this way about the game.

[LuminAbyss]

I have yet to find a character who isn't a dumb design in any of the fighting games I've played. They just vary on the scale of stupidity, is all. Fighting games are made of lots of bullshit, that's just how it always is, and always will be. No exceptions.

It just all comes down to what brand of bullshit you enjoy the most.