[CSE] Hakumen vs. Tager

[SansProtocol]

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PUNISHES:

ANTI-AIRING:

ZONING:

THEIR GAMEPLAN:

STRATEGY:

CHAR. SPECIFIC DETAILS:

[BladeOfJustice7]

I think I just need to learn how to block/deal with tager's blockstrings/pressure. 5b/5a/3c give me such a hard time on wake up along with obviously 360's.

[shinobispectre]

any tips on when you are all statically charged?

[Eirokaj]

Hakumen v. Tager

- This match-up seems to be in Hakumen's favor. Mostly because he has better poking tools to keep Iron Tager at bay.

- Poking/Zoning is the key for this particular match-up. Play strategically and defensively at all times.

+ Hakumen's 4C has excellent poking range.

+ Hakumen's j.5C is useful for poking range.

+ Hakumen's 2B/5B has decent poking range.

- Use Hakumen's magatama wisely. His magatama can be very effective for high damage possibilities.

- Hakumen's 2D/5D/6D/7,8,9D can be useful for this match-up as well. His Zanshin (God Slash) can used for Tager's slow start-up attacks. Patience and reaction is the key.

- If hit by Tager's Spark Bolt on block, try to zone away from him by any means necessary.

+ Instant back air dashing is useful for situations like these.

[dioxideUniversa]

Taking to the air is always dangerous while magnetized. IAD is no more safe than jumping from magnetized ACs. Generally the safest course is to stay on the ground and zone. Give yourself lots of space; backstepping is useful, but do so carefully as it is possible to get pulled during its long recovery in by 2D if he reads you.

Magnetism is only so useful for Tager because it projects that he is more than likely going to try to pull you in at some point, and all of his 'approaches' that are useful during magnetism are quite slow (5D, 2D, 6A) and can be parried with 2D or 6D on reaction if you're looking for it (which you should be if you're magnetized.)

The matchup is also generally one way or the other in CSE; it can be quite challenging for both parties involved. Using magatama wisely is true, but generally you use it to hit confirm into any damage that will get you a life lead. Fishing for 4C -> Gurren combos isn't terribly uncommon or a bad idea, since if you're playing the matchup well, you only need one or two combos to win. It's a slow and patient game and while high damage combos are great if you can get them, in most cases pressuring Tager with your best starters is risky, since Tager getting momentum in this matchup can be difficult to escape.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Possible Game Bug (could be working as intended though):

Haku-men countering a Hyper Armor Tager 6A gets his Yukikaze damage cut in half. I have a replay with me fighting Osuna confirming this. I know that Tager's hyper armor cuts damage in half but to me it seems odd that it would affect an unblockable counterattack like Yukikaze because he's getting hit by Yukikaze, not blocking it with hyper armor. Regardless, it still chops your Yukikaze damage in half.

In the replay I do Yukikaze > Kishuu > 2C for 1989 damage.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is still a thing in CP.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, Yukikaze freezes you in position when you activate the counter, so the super armor was still on probably.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Well, Yukikaze freezes you in position when you activate the counter, so the super armor was still on probably.

Seeing as unblockable shippu has the same problem I'd say this is probably "working as intended" but it sure makes countering 6A with Yukikaze a bad idea. Just use 6D instead, you'll get more damage than Yukikaze which is somewhat amusing.

[Sophisticat]

Ok, I need advice on the high-level plan. I'm battling the best there is and I can't win.

At neutral, zone with 4c, j.C, and air grabs. Fuck getting close unless necessary, you'll get grabbed.

You in the corner, just get the fuck out.

Him in the corner, zone again with 4c, j.C, and air grabs. Fuck getting close unless necessary, you'll get grabbed.

After gadget finger, you need to choose between Hotaru, throw, jumping out, 2D, and 6D. Tager will opt for throw, grabs, Collider, jab -> grab/combo, or blocking. There is no fail-safe option for either, it's on a rock-paper-scissors basis.

Things you need to be able to counter on reaction:

- Spark Bolt

- All Ds

- Sledges

- Elbow drop

- Overheads

- Etc., whatever is slow enough to be countered on reaction.

Playing defensively and keeping Tager at bay is your best bet. Despite this, if he finds an opening, risk/reward is in his favour and he can very quickly make a comeback. This is probably what I struggle with most. If your play isn't perfect, you're done.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

+When you've got him in the corner you could try adding 6C to your gameplan, especially meaty. You can hold it to bait/catch his backstep as well.

+Kishuu goes under a lot of Tager's stuff, including Spark Bolt and his 5D. 6D interrupts a lot of Tager's block strings, especially if you get an IB.

+Meaty Hop-Hotaru is a pretty safe option, if Tager mashes MTW it clashes though which usually leads to Tager winning if he expects it. You can mash Zanshin after the clash though. Even if Tager backsteps you generally have the advantage.

-Gadget Finger for Haku-men is a 50/50 affair between Tager 5A or 360. 5A beats everything you do except Zanshin/Yukikaze, 360 beats those though. Your yomi is everything when it comes to this. Sometimes you just gotta go for it and do a 6D.

-If you ever see Tager use 6A in his blockstring he's about to go for some kind of mix-up. 6A can link to just about every option Tager could ever want, and it's the only move that can cancel into 360.

-Don't ever AD in on Tager, AC will blow you up. This is what I hate most about fighting Tager in this MU, as Haku-men is such an AD-heavy character.

-With a bit of good timing, Tager is capable of countering a 4C with a 360A (with magnetism). You can usually jump out in time at longer ranges though.

-Zanshin'ing Spark Bolt still gets you magnetized, you might want to just avoid it instead. (looking at you, mAc)

[mAc Chaos]

-Zanshin'ing Spark Bolt still gets you magnetized, you might want to just avoid it instead. (looking at you, mAc)

That is more me showing off than anything else. :P

What's this unblockable Shippu set up? And every time I try to 6C I just end up 360'd or 720'd.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Unblockable Shippu is a gimmick you can use after any wall-bounce/corner slide. Its a mind game because while Tager can backstep it, you can delay it as much as you want so you can do it late to catch him out of his backstep.

You always use 6C too close and too late against me. Use it in similar situations where you'd use 4c only slightly closer. Any closer and you're inviting risk. I recommend it mainly for backstep-happy Tagers. I'm not saying "use 6c all the time everytime you will win everything with it's the best move ever!!" I'm saying use it occasionally to try and catch Tager off-guard. 6C has way longer range than you'd think, it's only slightly less than 4C. On block it's -6 as opposed to 4C's -10

[Sophisticat]

You can't always avoid the Bolt. Reaction D's the best option, imo.

I would do more than not AD in on Tager, I'd avoid approaching him at all. No jump ins, nothing. Agreed on Enma, though. Forgot to mention that one as it can catch Tager once in a while.

I have caught the local Tagers with max 6c a couple times. They fall for it less now.

Mac, what do you say? You've got the most exp. of any of us in this matchup!

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I always just j2A-reaction spark bolt, sometimes yomi 5C/4C. j2A's got ~13F of projectile-killing goodness and only has a 4F start-up into the projectile-kill property.

mAc gets hit by backwards-roll 720s in the corner.

[mAc Chaos]

Some things were just not meant to be done.

You could just neutral tech 720 and it would be the same thing.

Mac, what do you say? You've got the most exp. of any of us in this matchup!

I knew it would come to this. If only I could play Brice and see what he does. I tailor a lot of my tactics to a specific player.

For Spark Bolt, you should jump it if you can. Countering it is just for throwing salt on their fries. When you try to counter there is a chance you'll mess up the timing and eat a combo; even if you are successful, you are still magnetized. So you might as well jump. Worst case scenario, you end up magnetized, which is what would happen if you landed the counter anyway. But at least if you jump and they miss you don't get magnetized at all.

Now, if they do it point blank range, and you smell it coming, THEN the counter is a good idea (or just Kishuu under it) so you can combo them.

A lot of the match just comes down to pure yomi. Most high level Tagers are already used to dealing with zoning, so they will find a way past yours eventually. Even if they don't get in, they will steadily push you back towards the corner, until they are at a favorable range. At that point it comes down to who can read the other best. There is no way you will keep them out forever.

In fact, I've gotten a lot of success out of rushing THEM down. If you try to zone them, you will just peck away at them, until they eventually nip you once and make up for everything you did and more. Suddenly you are screwed and have to go attack them anyway. But if you go in and press your advantage when you knock them down, you can finish them before they have a chance to gain control of the situation. It's kind of like fighting Lambda: if you have the health lead, would you just sit back? NO, because she will find a way to land a sword eventually and then you'll be losing anyway except with less time. You have to finish her while you have the chance. The same is true for Tager. You can't just sit on your life lead.

Fighting Tager up close is like surfing a tidal wave. You can be doing amazing and then get wiped out at any second. But it's better to put him on defense and leave him dealing with your mixups and make him take risks to get out of your pressure, than to be stuck in Gadget Finger mixup.

You can counter any of his slow moves, and make him afraid to push buttons. You can Hotaru any random mash outs. You can jump out and bait his 360s. If you touch him once he will lose 5k and get thrown into the corner.

This all goes back to momentum. You don't want to let him ever gain any. If he touches you, ever, then burst. Even if the combo is not that good you don't want to get magnetized into Gadget Finger mixup.

Anyway, the problem with my advice is that it has been a long time since I have fought a tournament level Tager, so the things I am saying could just be because I am getting away with things I shouldn't. I have gotten pretty used to dealing with Tager's tools though.

But defaulting to my experience with my brother, I remember all the times I tried to rely only on zoning, I lost. It was only after I used my keepaway to set up some offense that I would more often than not. (But even then, one backdash into 720 and you are in pain.)

It's still true that making one mistake is pretty much the match for you. That is why conditioning and reading their next move is important. If you condition them, then at least you can have a greater expectation that they'll do one thing rather than another, and it'll help you set up more mixups. If you can make them hesitate, it will let you get away with more things that they would normally IB and try to punish.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I can vouch for the fact that I (the Tager) find this MU much harder when Hakumen gets all up in my face and never gives me an inch. Hakumen's got the second highest life total as well which makes 720 less game-deciding.

[Sophisticat]

THANK YOU MAC!! <3

But I'm so tired right now that I hope you guys will forgive me if I only make a short reply.

I always just j2A-reaction spark bolt, sometimes yomi 5C/4C. j2A's got ~13F of projectile-killing goodness and only has a 4F warm-up into the projectile-kill property.

mAc gets hit by backwards-roll 720s in the corner.

You can reaction j.2a? o_O

I best get on that! Must be distance-dependent, though...

I knew it would come to this. If only I could play Brice and see what he does. I tailor a lot of my tactics to a specific player.

He's an RTSD Tager. Can yomi anything and everything. Can do 720 off everything or standing. Has an uncannily lethal decision process.

In his own words: "to beat Tager, you must play perfect".

I can vouch for the fact that I (the Tager) find this MU much harder when Hakumen gets all up in my face and never gives me an inch. Hakumen's got the second highest life total as well which makes 720 less game-deciding.

I used to do this until I learned better. They'll get you eventually. I think you might not be taking advantage of gaps in their pressure or spacing right if you're letting them roll all over you.

Now all I can do is 4c, j.C, and air grabs. Anything else gets me killed.

[Mucky]

MY OPINION ON THIS MATCHUP (AS REQUESTED BY MAC):

I can't do anything on 360 pad so I just get hit and lose. Someone mail me a stick.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

MY OPINION ON THIS MATCHUP (AS REQUESTED BY MAC):

I can't do anything on 360 pad so I just get hit and lose. Someone mail me a stick.

Mucky vs. 360 Pad 2-8 pad's favor. The 2 comes from lagspike 720s.

[mAc Chaos]

MY OPINION ON THIS MATCHUP (AS REQUESTED BY MAC):

I can't do anything on 360 pad so I just get hit and lose. Someone mail me a stick.

I didn't say 360 only :P

[A.X.I.S.]

I won't spend a lot of time on this and it's been awhile since I touched the game.

Hakumen should do:

-Keep his distance and build three stars, always try to have a minimum of two stars, Haku is scary with just two stars.

Carry the third star so you'd have two stars at the end of a confirm.

-Vary air movement, Tager can AA haku whatevers if too close, can AC if you are dumb about it, and His air normals just shit on Tager hard.

-Block or avoid spark bolt.

If you can D it then I won't stop you from doing it but you get no benefit from it, you want benefit then try to yomi cut it.

Not only do you not get magged you also create a small wall that Tager won't try to get pass, thus buying time.

More time=more meter for Haku.

-If it's over 15F and you are looking for it then you D it.

2D, 6C, 6A, Sledge, j.2C

D that shit, D that shit to oblivion.

-AA's to use:

5A, hotaru, 6A (sketchy I guess) jump back j.C

You have stars and Tager is pressing a button throw them out.

-3C some shit.

its 9F fast and Tager players should be scared to get CH'd by it.

Onto what mAc now

Tailoring yourself to a specific player is really good and you if you are winning with rush down then the Tager's neutral isn't strong.

If you are winning by time out then the Tager player isn't taking risks or picking up on things yadayada.

Play to win.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

-Keep his distance and build three stars, always try to have a minimum of two stars, Haku is scary with just two stars.

Carry the third star so you'd have two stars at the end of a confirm.

This.

This is probably the single most important thing you should ever worry about. Unless it kills, don't ever extend your combo to the point where it leaves you star-less. I personally think the best strat is to try to save all the way up the 6+ stars during footsies/poking phase and then once you get a good confirm you end the match all at once. Doing this almost always provokes a Burst as well and Haku is a really good anti-Burst character. Doing this also gives you a big meter advantage because Tager doesn't charge meter constantly like you do.

After j2A'ing mAcs spark bolts yesterday I can confirm you still get magged from it, so avoidance is still the best option. 1 star isn't worth getting magged and potentially giving Tager a setup. You can use j2A on your way down to ensure you don't get spark bolted on your way back down from jumps though. Time it so all the projectile-cut frames are still active during your descent.

At the very least, D'ing Spark Bolt saves you a guard bevel.

3C is annoying as fuck to Tager, but never try to use it when you're magged except on reaction.

Tager 6B beats way too many things at the start of the round (god DAMN you mucky)

[mAc Chaos]

my tager will destroy you

This.

This is probably the single most important thing you should ever worry about. Unless it kills, don't ever extend your combo to the point where it leaves you star-less. I personally think the best strat is to try to save all the way up the 6+ stars during footsies/poking phase and then once you get a good confirm you end the match all at once. Doing this almost always provokes a Burst as well and Haku is a really good anti-Burst character. Doing this also gives you a big meter advantage because Tager doesn't charge meter constantly like you do.

I don't think you can really afford to do that against a high level opponent. You have to take every chance to land damage you get.

The way I look at it, regarding what Axis said about zoning is, I pretty much assume that Tager WILL get in at some point, not that I can keep him out the entire match. So given that he will get in and throw me into mixup if I zone, I'd rather put him on defense instead. And I don't mean rushing down by trying to Ragna him to death by constantly being in his face. More like zoning and then setting up an offense once you gain an advantage rather than just throwing it away and going back to zoning which is what most Hakus would do if they just wanted to keep Tager away. No reason to do Tagers job for him by getting near him, after all.

ALSO I just realized I have seen Brice already this entire time, practically every single time I have ever gone to a major with my brother, he always gets matched up against Brice in a Tager mirror on Round 1 or 2, so I got to see how they played compared to each other. At least I think that was Brice.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I don't think you can really afford to do that against a high level opponent. You have to take every chance to land damage you get.

Whenever I'm fighting you on Tager you always end up with at least 2 stars at the end of a combo, on the rare times you don't I'm not intimidated at all because I know you can't do your Hotaru scumbag tactics, and even if you do confirm me again you can't turn it into a real combo. Basically what I'm suggesting is to milk the poking phase for all it's worth. Tager's not gaining meter and you are. Once that phase is over (usually when Tager finally gets near you) then you just switch to the usual tactics.

[mAc Chaos]

I'm just saying not to deliberately wait until you have six stars or so. If you land a good starter then just do whatever good combo you can, rather than let it go to waste so you can wait for a bigger better combo later.