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Honnou

I-no vs Potemkin

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So, I noticed two things while messing around in training mode.

1. If Pot does j.D and you slashback it on the ground, he lands before the SB recovers, so you'll get a grounded punish. You wont be able to SB > Anti-Air 5P > air combo. You'll get a better punish than throw, but it's still SB, which is high risk. Anyway, I-No's hitbox ends at the tip of her hat, so watch for that when you try to IB/SB his ass. It's a shame you can't do flashy SB > 5P > c.S > VCL > 6FRC6 > FFVCL U-Zen combos to punish, but whatever.

2. Hdive goes active 3 frames after you release the button if you hold it. Whats really odd is that if you TK it in Pot's face and hold it, then have him start HPB, and release H during the super flash, you'll hit him out of it. Now, the hitbox on your attack should reach his knees, and while he's invincible until the flash, it's only above the waist after. The weird thing is that HPB is supposed to go active the frame after the flash, according to his frame data anyway. So... if you release Hdive during the flash, you should go active 3 frames after that, which means you should get thrown, but for whatever reason you don't. So uh... we have a really silly HPB bait, and somewhere some information might be wrong? :v:

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1. I think you could technically SB 5P if you did it fast enough? But like that's not happening. Otherwise, is it possible to backdash and punish j.D? Most chars can either backdash or run past, but I guess I-no's dash rules out the latter.

2. HPB is weird in that it will lose to most everything already out and sometimes end up beating shit. The info's definitely weird somewhere and I've given up on trying to understand it. Mostly I just assume HPB will lose until proven otherwise.

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You can totally hit Pot out of j.D if you SB it on the ground, but it wont be an anti-air. He lands (and goes into landing recovery) before 5P goes active after a SB.

And yeah, there are tons of ways to punish j.D, so long as you don't try to beat it outright. Dat ass even beats Volcanic Viper. Jump IB > throw is probably the most reliable thing you can do to punish j.D. SB > punish would lead to a lot more damage if you're willing to take the risk though.

The thing that's really weird about the Hdive example is that it's not active until 3 frames after you release, so if you release during the flash, it isn't active for 3 frames after that, during which time HPB should kick your ass. It just doesn't. *Shrug*

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Hi guys,

I've been playing I-no since January and I have a hard time dealing with my friend's Potemkin (actually he crushes me 99% of the time since January). Yesterday we recorded some games, the video can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1q3qy3bm3g

Sorry for the quality and the lack of sound, but that's all we have for the moment.

Please note that these games are online games, and that we had a little bit of lag coming at the party (I get hit A LOT by 6HS when I want to IB them ¬¬).

My questions:

- How can I improve globally ? (I just saw the record and it's obvious I'm rushing too much at Potem like a dumbass, but there are probably a lot of other things to note)

- Why am I just getting pounded by 5P 5P 5P when I want to get in after a KD ? (probably some timing issues, but I don't know exactly what I'm doing wrong)

- Could you give me some oki setups after a KD and hover dash > IAD ? It seems I can't beat that Potemkin backdash, even with a STBT S just after landing.

- How do you deal with the neutral game ? I feel I just can "poke" with HCL.

Any advice would be appreciated =) And don't lose your time saying I suck with I-no, I already know that :p

Edited by Toum

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I had this part at the end, but I moved it to the top: The more I watch these, the more I feel like the biggest problem is the 5Ps and the lack of note on oki. I'd write up something you need to do, and then I see you do it a few rounds later. The lack of confirmed damage hurts you, and the lack of keeping initiative after knockdown because you're letting him disrespect your oki hurts you. Learn to time the meaties better, and use your notes more. That's the most important thing. If you want to read the rest of this go ahead, but I was writing stuff as I was watching, so you're pretty good about doing the things I was saying to do. I'm actually going to delete parts of my post that I feel you did well already.

And then it's like... you're not adapting to him adapting... you're sort of letting him lead the match.

The 5P on wakeup stuff is just you timing your oki wrong. If you're going for j.K you should start it a bit earlier to make sure he can't do that. As far as backdash bait, I know there are stronger backdash specific baits, but I tend to try to land early such that I'll have time to react and just poke the recovery, which also serves to block Giganter reversal, and avoid HPB reversal. You can also just do a late j.D after feinting like you're going to land, or even just do Fortissimo oki. You get your mixup if blocked, you recover in time to avoid the PB after the backdash depending on timing, and on hit you do big damage. Honestly, there are weaknesses to these options too, but I get away with it. Just make sure you're unpredictable enough between a meaty landing and landing to bait stuff, and make sure you have notes covering you where applicable. Late dash to j.H can also work, but only if you've scared them into blocking. If he's going to disrespect you with wakeup 5P that wont work. If he's scared enough to block or backdash you attempt to throw that backdash, and land into a punish if that fucks up. Or if he just blocked, you'll land into a mixup. Hell, do Fortissimo oki once in a while just to screw over those 5Ps, and confirm into big damage. That'll scare him into doing something else.

When I play against Pot I try to zone way harder. Shoot notes over his head and drop them on him, or sometimes on his feet. You can bait him into doing something other than FDB once you've convinced him it wont work on your notes, and then safely HCL to knock him down, shoot a note he has to block, and then get in. Part of keeping him from using hammerfall and FDB on everything is dancing around at that range where he has to take a risk to hit you (something like 2/3 screen). You can shoot a note or HCL from here if you're being cautious and watching his movements, and if his risk is successful he gets to knock you down or get in close at best. Otherwise, you maintain positional advantage. F.S can work sometimes if you think he'll stick a hitbox into it, but at the range where you'd win when he sticks a hitbox out, he's going to want to slidehead for position reasons, or just FDB in anticipation of HCL. Just make sure you've done something to pressure his position, like shoot a note over his head, before you move in.

When you dance in a little closer, don't take unnecessary risk. Never just IAD in without a note protecting you. Except for the times you know it'll work. ;) Just get in with like j.P and do stuff like 5P/2P on the ground, going into like 2K. Land early, backdash. Land early, throw some pokes, get back out. I don't like to go for damage unless it's off of a knockdown. My neutral game is to play low risk and go for knockdowns, then shoot a note and try for something when he has to block. If that fails, I tend to safely back out. Just keep in mind that it's not the same as running away, since he can bait and punish needless backdashes with 6H / Megafist / Hammerfall, or do Heat Knuckle if you IAD away from point blank. Continued pressure is good once in a while once you've frustrated them and taken a big lead, since you're not dead if they guess right. You just wont have many chances after that.

You also didn't confirm into damage in a lot of setups. It's online play so I'll blame it on that. Just make sure you get strong at this for offline games. It's super helpful vs Pot since he has so much endurance.

Man, the more of your video that I watch, the more I see you're generally doing the stuff I'm writing as advice. I'll try to be more specific about this particular Pot player.

1. He's not doing 6H > slidehead when you block. Did you condition him to stop doing it because you always get out, or does he just not know it's a strong trap? Since you're getting hit trying to IB it sometimes, just block and backdash, or block > whatever against what he does. IB backdash is important, but if he's not using slidehead, what's the point?

2. You get jump-checked by his 2D quite a bit out of 2S. I know you're avoiding Pot Buster, but sometimes you even do this after you've faultlessed, which increases your block stun. You're not going to be able to jump. In this case, you have to either try to backdash it, or just commit to blocking. You can't really do this on reaction, but at the ranges he gets the 2S vacuum in some cases, you should know he can't Pot Buster you anyway. Also, while he can special cancel 2D in +R, he can't in AC. Since you're still playing that, you don't have much to be scared of when committing to blocking 2D since it's -2 on block.

3. Really, on oki, use note more so he can't backdash or 5P. If you can't really do a note at that range and have it be effective, then back up and do it and just return to neutral game with an advantage. It sucks, but it's better than getting punished by his backdash. Just... damn, you get so many knockdowns that you don't use note on. You could also try dash in VCL FRC, since VCL is 11 frames active, if you want to dash in without note.

4. Land early on approach into 6P just a little more. He doesn't use hammerfall that often, so stop him from disrespecting your oki with that stupid 5P. 6P through it and go into damage and knockdown. At max range (as if trying to hit his hand as he sticks it out), you can probably go into 2S and have it connect before hammerfall anyway if you're scared of that. I noticed you tried a few times and got hit by FDB, but don't let that scare you into not trying it when you think he'll do 5P.

Use note more in neutral too. You use HCL to zone quite well in the middle matches, but you'd get away with it more if you locked him down with notes that he can't FDB. If you land HCL and see that full-screen knockdown, shoot Hnote. You tend to just dash in. Really break the habit in this matchup.

Edited by TheRealBobMan

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Thanks a lot for your answer :)

Maybe I should go to training mode to see if I can improve my timing with oki notes, with Potem spamming 5P.

For the lack of damage, I know I still miss a lot of things in my execution, and most of the time I don't know exactly what combos are working against Potem', so I try to improvise with low success rate :x

And for your questions regarding my friend:

1 - I think he knows that you can freely slidehead after a blocked 6H. Why doesn't he do it ? No idea. He did it earlier.

In fact he purposely stopped doing slidehead > OTG into Heat Knuckle to "prepare" for the AC+R version of the game (and because we both think this OTG is totally abuse :p). Maybe there's a bond with 6H > slidehead ? I'll ask him to answer himself, he's member of Dustloop too :p

2 - Oh yes, in fact I often try to IB that 2D and get caught. But maybe it's not worth it.

3 - I'll train myself to shoot notes.

4 - That FDB really annoys me. I keep getting pounded by it, and I still can't figure its huge hitbox yet ¬¬

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Hey, thanks for the analysis! :)

1 - I think he knows that you can freely slidehead after a blocked 6H. Why doesn't he do it ? No idea. He did it earlier.

In fact he purposely stopped doing slidehead > OTG into Heat Knuckle to "prepare" for the AC+R version of the game (and because we both think this OTG is totally abuse :p). Maybe there's a bond with 6H > slidehead ? I'll ask him to answer himself, he's member of Dustloop too :p

Well, I often do 6H > Slidehead when I'm far to the opponent but not here because :

  • I didn't know it was a safe move (is it?), especially this close (pressing in the corner). I thought blocking or instant blocking the 6H could lead to IAD > combo over the Slidehead (I got punished a few times, maybe I was wrong).
  • I won't do the OTG followup after the Slidehead, because we both agreed it was abused (and not very funny, I used once in the vid, maybe when we'll be better, I'll change my mind), so I think it's better to try varying my mixups.
  • When I'm close to I-no, I tried many times to FRC the 6H into PB, but failed, haha. :I: So it became 6H > nothing-wtf?!-just-throw-a-random-move without really thinking of what I could do after that.

Anyway, thanks for the answer, TheRealBobMan :)

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Well, it's sort of ok to not do OTG stuff off of Slidehead now since you lose the ability to do it for free in +R, so you'll be forced to compensate by playing well in other areas, but not doing something strong because it's "too good" or "cheap" or "easy to abuse" is just limiting your play. You'll still be able to do damage off of Slidehead when +R finally comes out, but you'll have to spend meter on it. Hopefully you wont see that as a problem.

Blocking 6H normally in AC means that you have to have nearly perfect timing to backdash and not get hit. You can't jump to get out because of jump startup - you'll still be on the ground in jump startup frames when the unblockable part goes active. If you IB it your window to backdash is better, and I-No is one of the fast jump characters so she might be able to 1-frame jump and then dash in, but it's hard to be consistent at. I-No does have the ability to use HCL/VCL since they're frame-1 airborne, but the input is even harder than backdash, so it's not that reliable. Generally speaking, blocked 6H to Slidehead is a really strong trap, and if you're not always using it, you can get away with using it. If you go into megafist/hammerfall/heat knuckle frequently enough, it'll scare them into not always backdashing or trying to jump > punish. I think it's not as good of a trap in +R though, so it's probably a good thing that you don't rely on it. : )

It's good that you tried to use 6H FRC PB though. That online lag just makes the whole experience lame for everyone. : (

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I-No does have the ability to use HCL/VCL since they're frame-1 airborne, but the input is even harder than backdash, so it's not that reliable.

I drilled these for awhile and compared them to my ability to escape with reversal backdashes, and found that I actually had more success with the chemical loves, for what it's worth. The directional input buffer on special moves lingers a bit, so I think it's just a matter of whether or not you're more comfortable inputting a button press or a backdash with reversal timing. Play around with the recording feature and experiment for yourself!

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I drilled these for awhile and compared them to my ability to escape with reversal backdashes, and found that I actually had more success with the chemical loves, for what it's worth. The directional input buffer on special moves lingers a bit, so I think it's just a matter of whether or not you're more comfortable inputting a button press or a backdash with reversal timing. Play around with the recording feature and experiment for yourself!

Reversal backdashes and reversal Gold burst are both specific 1-frame timing. Technically, special moves should be too, but due to Guilty Gear's buffering system, a special with reversal timing is more lenient, and somewhere around 2~3 frame timing. I don't know the exact math or why, but a special is always easier to reversal than BD/Burst

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Wow, that's good to know. I knew that with negative edge you'd have twice as many chances for the input to come out without dropping compared to just hitting 44 and possibly having the second one be one frame too early, but I didn't realize it'd buffer with a bigger window. Thanks. Now that I'm inputting the 632146 input a lot faster I'll have to force myself to react with that instead of backdash attempts. At least until Pot starts going into Hammerfall and winds up having to waste meter to make it safe when I stick on the 4 input on reaction. : )

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