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Star-Demon

[GGAC+R] & [GGAC] Baiken - General Discussion

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Can't seem to stop upbacking. I auto downback when I try to hold my ground and I can't seem to block even basic high low HIGH in most games or understand when I can get a turn back.

Very disappointing matches. As much as I practice things I haven't really mastered anything. I've improved but only against people I already know I could beat. They just don't mash me out as easily anymore.

When I look at this stuff It's like I just can't stop playing wrong. All I have to do is just play right but I never do.

On the bright side, at least I barrier and try to throw and blow up a backdash more. As much as I try to do hitconfirming at school I haven't gotten anything out of it, yet. Maybe now that the heat is off for a week or so I can put more time into it and maybe something will come of it.

Just gonna have to Naruto it and maybe someday I'll be a chuunin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxHoe6Mz_dM

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Haven't played Mahouko in 6 months - since sept TSB.

I went 3-8! GETTING BETTER! Still gotta work on hitconfirming and spacing.

Damn light characters I just can't combo them even though I know what to do...

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You gotta learn at least one dust combo that you can find in the basics thread, and capitalize on counter hits; like Youshijin(P counter) you can 6HS them as they fall down in the air because of the amount of untechable time they're in then jump cancle to air combo(although you have to jump/run jump to hit an air combo off a non counter hit Youshijin that launches them), and Sakura(S counter) whether it counter hits or not you can score a combo to a knock down and continue pressure, and j.HS counter hit if they're in the air usually you can land then jump to combo them or if they're on ground you can follow up with alot of different attacks (based on when did you hit them/how high in the air where you when you did) into tatami>etc.

Also you seem to jump backwards a lot after tatami either FRC or not which doesn't help you in comboing, if you're not FRCing tatami either jump or superjump forwards to combo with j.P, and if you're FRCing it you should practice run jump forwards (running and immediately jumping so that you don't run long enough to actually see the run but you would see the dust that comes out of the ground at the beginning of the running animation) to combo to j.S; that would make it easier to relaunch after first loop in corner by FRCing the air D to an air tatami or by doing a fast fall j.D.

Do the combos in the basics guide, then you'll learn variations based on spacing and opponent's weight, etc. Also watch some japanese Baiken match vids, its helpful.

Edited by SHINIGAMI_mkl

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Sorry about not having updated the video thread lately.

It's hard to find the time since my last few months have been pretty hectic and I really have about 2 or so hours to myself during the day and even those are normally scattered about with other things. So, at the least I cleaned out the dead links a bit ago and probably on sunday will see if I can replace the link with Goldenroldy's games if there are any copies and update it as of the past few months.

On another note, Kaeru, I saw the video you put on there a few days back. Holy shit those combos we nice, especially the one ending in J.D and the 6P combo that scored corner Oki. I really can't wait for this game. Last time I actually played GG was at WB against a Sol player and months before that. I was rusty and lost 1-2 at casuals, though I was hitting FRC's and whatnot. I still had my fundamentals for the most part.

Also, Star-Demon, just so you know, doing J.PSD after tatami midscreen is viable on a majority of the cast. Whether it's from 5HS or 2D. I will make the video regarding midscreen combos according to weight for sure.

I tested just to make sure on the right side of the cast, and haven't done the left yet :/ I'll get to that when I find the time to record and everything. It's an all day project pretty much since I like to finish things in one go.

But, I -will- make the video since it should be applicable to +R as well.

Edited by Fujiwara

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Fujiwara, as always we all thank you for your contributions. Don't worry too much about updating the video thread, technically i could have done it for you. Thank you for continuing work on it and the vids you make, too.

I am extremely hype for those combos in the last vid thread too !!!!!!! being able to end in j.D with Oki midscreen is an asset that will be EXTREMELY valuable to Baiken. I can't wait to learn the ins and outs of why it works and just how character specific it is. As for the 2HS back in the corner Oki combo.. wow... i don't even know what to say about that one. Depending on how character specific those 2 things are, Baiken is -extremely- strong in +R.

(link for those who haven't seen it yet)

EDIT: I think it might also be the reason behind the mysterious j.K attempts we've seen so many Baikens go for late in their air combos. What do you guys think?

Edited by kaeru

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Ohh, nice! I thought we couldn't depend on j.D midscreen oki in +R no more. I'm glad I'm proven wrong.

I think the more j.K attempts in air combos are used to reposition the character, so that after landing, you'd be able to combo after j.236K. That's what I think at least.

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Hi Kanta, welcome to the board !

You should check the Baiken guide stickied here. I am sure you will find more answers then you have questions for in there. Including some info about Youzansen FRC. Here is that specific part:

[PLAYER EXTRA INFO]

Anything that may be useful, that doesn't actually get covered. Variations of the norm or whatever~

Negedge Youzansen FRC

>>Written by KomagPHL

the way i've done the FRC youzansen has always been negative edging it. hold down S, do the motion, release S, then press P+K+HS. by negative edging, hitting the frc point becomes easier.

example: -> 6P -> 62369]S[ -> P+K+HS -> j.P -> j.K

>>Written by Hellmonkey

While that way is easier in training, I think in actual games you generally won't have time to hold down the button beforehand and negative edge. If you can see far enough ahead to have it held down, then all the power to you, but either way the FRC is hard. I also think it's not worth gatling into youzansen FRC at all from the ground, as one of the biggest reasons to do it is to have a low meaty which is safe against dragon punches, as well as crossing up (you can do a running youzansen FRC j.K crossup, it's actually quite good.. just hard.)

>>Written by Zakuta Asura

Basically, if you have the time to do it and you become pretty good at Negeding the Youzansen FRC then it's worth giving a shot, PROVIDED you know exactly what you want from it. Not really a good use of tension, but it's nice to use for fancy tricks. If your butt is on the line, then it's worth ignoring this FRC altogether.

Edited by kaeru

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Thank you very much. It really is much easier using negative edge since i don't need to press>release>FRC. I'll take a closer look at the guide then!

One question though, what's the overall consensus on R+ baiken? Better,worse or just... different?

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i would have to go with "just different" being the intention with +R Baiken, but depending on how character specific her new combos are.. she might be flat out better.

to summarize look at one of the main pillars of Baiken's game plan, her guard cancels. They've lost a lot of invincibility or had their invincibility moved around so they seem a bit less useful. But they've also been sped up as well. Even Sakura in +R has become Yoshijin speed in Accent Core. Basically it means it's easier to get counter hits when used properly, and will flat out get stuffed more often when used poorly. This makes them less frustrating for the opponent without taking away from the Baiken player at higher level. The next big change is the attempt to remove the "absolute" guaranteed knockdown on j.D. This might be mitigated by some of the new combos that are popping up, allowing Baiken to still keep hard knockdown in many situations. And lastly her damage output seems to be about the same. In fact, i might even say her damage output at low meter cost has improved (the 0% and 25% meter use range)!

Those are just 3 aspects of the new Baiken and how i feel they are evolving in the next game, it would be cool if some of the other members gave their opinions on some of those changes. And of course the new properties of some of her normals and other deeper changes.

Edited by kaeru

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I also feel like she's "different", Her combos are interesting now and her counters are as Kaeru stated. I wouldn't say she's completely like in AC+. The only thing I wish was still present is the old j.D knockdown untech time.

Also iirc, her defense values changed?

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honestly i think you pretty much nailed it kaeru, anything more than that we'll just have to see for ourselves when the game comes out on console.

this might be the wrong place for this, but i'm curious how (or if) you guys think the match-up against potemkin has changed in +R. that's the one match-up i've always had trouble with, and it's also the one i play the most by far. at the very least i'm really loving the changes slide head's getting.

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To be honest, I don't like the GC invincibility property changes. If they took it away from sakura and gave it to youshijin, I might be able to be fine with it, but to have half a DP be our de-facto DP and hot have a move (like most other useful characters have) that can't be easily blown up is just haphazard rebalancing.

I don't know what prompted the need to change it. Watching most levels of Baiken play I felt all of the GCs were fine. Certainly nothing on the level of Hakumen's counters or other nonsense in anime or FGs. (Seriously, Fuck Hakumen. Love, A Baiken player)

Baiken doesn't even get that much damage nor has that much life or defense - She also has the second worst grab range in the game.

All-in-all, I also decided to wait and see. There's still technology being developed, so I'm not really bummed out.

In the next Guilty Gear (if there ever is one), I would like to see Baiken get some new gatlings or improved versions of existing normals.

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Can anyone tell me why is it that i see so little Baiken on Youtube? Is it because of my low ability to find Baiken matches or is it just that so few people use them?

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I've added a summary of all Baiken changes we know of to date to the first post, INCLUDING some clarifications from the ggac+r mook. Please feel free to post any errors you find or references to stuff missing !! THANKS !!

honestly i think you pretty much nailed it kaeru, anything more than that we'll just have to see for ourselves when the game comes out on console.

this might be the wrong place for this, but i'm curious how (or if) you guys think the match-up against potemkin has changed in +R. that's the one match-up i've always had trouble with, and it's also the one i play the most by far. at the very least i'm really loving the changes slide head's getting.

Remember that this is Baiken's most difficult matchup in the game. A good Potemkin who knows how to exploit his advantages will always give any Baiken a hard time. That means you have to play very much on point 100% of the time. In +R the change to slide head is a welcome thing, since now he has to spend meter to combo off it. However.. it doesn't change how amazing his normals are and how he can keep Baiken where he wants her with them. On the positive side, I think Baikens new guard cancel speeds will actually help her a lot in this matchup in +R. Also I expect Zakuro will probably beat Potemkin's j.D, which is always a big problem for Baiken.

To be honest, I don't like the GC invincibility property changes. If they took it away from sakura and gave it to youshijin, I might be able to be fine with it, but to have half a DP be our de-facto DP and hot have a move (like most other useful characters have) that can't be easily blown up is just haphazard rebalancing.

I don't know what prompted the need to change it. Watching most levels of Baiken play I felt all of the GCs were fine. Certainly nothing on the level of Hakumen's counters or other nonsense in anime or FGs. (Seriously, Fuck Hakumen. Love, A Baiken player)

Baiken doesn't even get that much damage nor has that much life or defense - She also has the second worst grab range in the game.

All-in-all, I also decided to wait and see. There's still technology being developed, so I'm not really bummed out.

In the next Guilty Gear (if there ever is one), I would like to see Baiken get some new gatlings or improved versions of existing normals.

Baiken was never meant to have a reversal. The new Yoshijin is not meant to serve this purpose and i doubt she will ever have a reversal-esque move. She has meterless dead angle attacks which are now all faster then the lowest possible hitstop in the game (except for exceptional reduced hitstop multi-attacks). This means she can hit people with them while the game is frozen in time. No need for invincibility when used properly.

The old Sakura needed invincibility because it was very slow, and even after running through heavy hitstop of a high level attack, it might still not be active yet. This also meant that it was much more easily baited, and countered with a grab. You could use Yoshijin, but this was unsafe on hit (if not counter hit). Both had very heavy weaknesses against people who know the matchup.

Personally, im really looking forward to having a reliable Sakura that is also my fastest most optimal counter. I'm also looking forward to Zakuro as it is way faster and more reliable then Yoshijin was. And the new Yoshijin can be started preemptively and will make a far safe anti-air then 6P. I imagine it will finally beat those un-anti-airable attacks that Slayer and Sol have (j.HS in both cases).

As far as damage goes.. i don't know what to say. With 50 meter her 9 frame over head (Youzansen) leads to half an HP bar in damage. A counter hit tatami almost anywhere will get you tons of damage too. She has very strong damage output in the game.

Can anyone tell me why is it that i see so little Baiken on Youtube? Is it because of my low ability to find Baiken matches or is it just that so few people use them?

Sadly i suspect most of it is on NicoNico. There aren't really any dedicated people who grab all the videos from Nico and bring them over to YouTube, for GuiltyGear.

Edited by kaeru

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I noticed something really interesting while watching some matches, I'm not sure how i overlooked it or if it's character specific..

It seems IAD j.S > j.236K connects even on non counter hit in +R.. Maybe because of the improved hitbox hitting sooner? i don't know but i was under the impression you needed a counter hit to make that connect in regular AC.

Any thoughts from you guys?

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I noticed something really interesting while watching some matches, I'm not sure how i overlooked it or if it's character specific..

It seems IAD j.S > j.236K connects even on non counter hit in +R.. Maybe because of the improved hitbox hitting sooner? i don't know but i was under the impression you needed a counter hit to make that connect in regular AC.

Any thoughts from you guys?

Hmm.. was the hit on standing or crouching opponents?

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Hmm.. was the hit on standing or crouching opponents?

I'm probably just crazy, i can't find an example of what i saw. I've definitely seen it not work while searching, so im assuming i either imagined it or it was a very specific fluke (or perhaps as you suggest a crouching opponent which would certainly be possible).

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I've got the PSVita version of ACR thanks to my JP PSN account. I'll test it out tonight and let you guys know when I get back.

Welp, as far as I can tell it's not possible, on standing or crouching opponents. CH it works as always, but against standing no BEAT counter comes up. Against crouching, it doesn't come up either, but it's hard to do against even Potemkin's crouching hitbox. Most other characters you land before the tatami mat even comes out. Maybe I wasn't doing it fast enough, but as far as I can tell no big change.

Edited by Amadeous

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DL ac+R wiki still lists both tatamis as floaters, rather then wallbouncers. It also has jK at 28F untechable.

Comparing ac and ac+r wikis also brings up the following changes

"- Mawarikomi - total 24F -> 34F, strike invincibility 1-16F -> 1-24F, FRC 13-15F -> 21-23F"

"- D - start-up 25F -> 27F"

"- 2D - prorate 70% -> 80%"

"- j.P - start-up 7F -> 5F, active 4F -> 8F, recovery 9F -> 10F"

first post:

2H: now also vacuums on air hit

6P: not just Guard Balance, but Guard Balance decrease (as in GB-)

suzuran: cancellable into guard-cancels without block 9-24F

zakuro listed as follows on wiki "1st hit has initial prorate 75% 2nd hit has forced prorate 75% Baiken is in CH state 1~11F FRC timing 12~13F"

ouren: wiki lists it as -15, rather then -9 in AC

Edited by RoBoBOBR

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Thank you for your keen eye, RoBoBOBR, i'm going to cross reference all that with the mook and add it to the first post. Your attention to detail is appreciated !

DL ac+R wiki still lists both tatamis as floaters, rather then wallbouncers. It also has jK at 28F untechable.

I'm going to see if i can get this corrected in the wiki, both statements are wrong.

j.P - start-up 7F -> 5F, active 4F -> 8F, recovery 9F -> 10F

I found this one hard to believe at first.. but lo and behold, it is indeed black and white in the mook. Amazing!

ouren: wiki lists it as -15, rather then -9 in AC

this is correct due to the added landing recovery, it's now -15

I wish i could understand the mook a bit better and give the precise Baku Follow up changes. All i know is it's proration related and it's 50% for one and 30% for the two others, but i don't know if it's first hit proration, forced proration or if it's related the proration of all damage while the opponent is cursed by the effect of the follow up. (eg, when cursing opponent for unblockable next hit, the resulting combo has extra proration, that's how it already is in AC)

Aside from that, first post is all fixed up, thanks again !

Edited by kaeru

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