[GGAC+R] & [GGAC] Baiken - General Discussion

[Star-Demon]

5 tatami combos looking swank. I don't understand the air FD, though. It's very hard to do, as well, unless you are prepared to do it from a very neutral position. That's going to take a lot of time to actually do in match, I think, because no one is going to let you attempt to confirm shenanigans like that.

I think I can do it, though. The actual process of doing the loop requires skills you'd have if you can AD tatami and prepare to do stuff while falling.

After practicing a bit my forward kire tatami is still completely awful. I don't think I can move around the screen correctly in FGs, and that's very discouraging proof that I maybe should quit.

Just gonna have yo wait until I can actually play it without paying more moneyyyyyy

[Zida]

I finally got my hands on +R, but I'm feeling pretty crappy about it. Baiken didn't necessarily get nerfed, but I'm having some serious difficulty retraining myself. Things like relying on j.D, air-to-air j.H, etc. don't work anymore. I really love Baiken as a character, but I really don't think I can relearn her. My old habits are rearing their ugly heads, and I honestly think it would be easier just to pick up someone else even though I want to keep playing her.

Does anyone have any good advice? I just can't get the hang of any of her new stuff since my muscle memory is so solid from AC.

[Hellmonkey]

AC has been out and available for the better part of a decade. +R is not even released in the US yet.

I think you will find that when you get her bnb down in +R, it is still quite universal just like her combos in AC. You will need 2-3 different versions of combos based on opponent weight and height with a few exceptions.

Given that she has many new tools (e.g. suzuran into counters, FB tatami, late hit from ground tatami making it safer) and so many new combo routes with new j.h/tatami and 6H buffs, it seems a bit premature to give up on the character.

A good combo to start out with is corner 2k 5s 5h tatami 2d j.s j.d frc airdash j.h j.tatami (land and they cross up) 6P suzuran>zakuro.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Hellmonkey

[Star-Demon]

HOW DO I BEAT THIS GUY OMG SO HARD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHwDR2p3XRk

Learning a lot lately, real talk. Gonna change up a lot of things soon.

[Hellmonkey]

I'm not entirely sure why you're posting videos against the cpu. Good luck on improving your Baiken though!

[Solid Gold Wall]

great job on the guilty bits video kaeru

[kaeru]

Thank you, Solid ! The makers of guilty bits did a LOT of work crunching all the information into something informative and fun. They definitely deserve most of the credit.

A pleasant side effect of that video though: The pages and pages of basic Baiken info i wrote to them is slowly becoming excellent material for the wiki. It's almost done now !

If any of you guys want to take a look at Baiken's wiki page and comb it for mistakes it would be appreciated. We're only human !

Thanks again for the comment, it means a lot to me.

[Star-Demon]

This isn't Baiken-specific but it still makes me very happy to announce that I can do this, now.

[Star-Demon]

I was playing AC+ and just accidentally FRC Youzansen - in a way that it came out. Usually I get an air hop and drop j.P or j.S

it SAYS FRC timing 3-4 - 3 you get nothing, 4 you get YZS?

I was told I just macro glitched. It always existed? Wow.

Looks like I'm banned forever from all GG tourneys until I learn to play the game "the way it's meant to be played."

So I am going to learn to do this dirty-ass thing consistantly and get to falling jump P with activated YZS FRC. Sounds good and I wonder how it is in practice.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Star-Demon

[kaeru]

Generally YZS FRC isn't worth the reward of the difficulty of pulling it off. But if you want to play around with it, the guide has a nice shortcut to help make it easier. Also you could consider using j.K after it to go straight into air combo depending on where you are and what you want to accomplish.

The shortcut in the guide is to negative edge Youzansen, and then hit the 3 buttons for the FRC. Since you are just letting go of a button to do the move you have more time to hit the buttons for the FRC.

Again, this isn't REALLY worth the effort it requires. You would do yourself more good learning to gatling into j.D on standing opponents or hit confirming a crouching 2S into tatami.

The macro glitch does not make YZN FRC any easier at all, whoever said that doesn't really understand what makes YZS FRC difficult.

[Noskizzle]

Can jump install make yozensen safe or is using tension on rc my only option?

[kaeru]

Can jump install make yozensen safe or is using tension on rc my only option?

Unfortunately jump installing won't really change anything about Youzansen. The two main issues being it's very unsafe on block, and the landing recovery after she touches the ground (during which time the game prevents her from blocking). If there was a way to make it safe, it would still be very very difficult to confirm whether it hit or was blocked before you'd have to RC to get the combo.

Interesting fact on the topic, even if you FRC youzansen, which is before the active frames, Baiken STILL has to suffer the horrible landing recovery when she touches the ground, even if you did other air moves before landing.

[Noskizzle]

Thanks for answering my question. Yea I figured it wouldn't work or it would be a thing already

[Hellmonkey]

Just to add on to the Youzansen discussion, there are a number of moves that give landing recovery after being used in the air and this can always be negated by double jumping, but never by airdashing. j.D is the best example of this (universal), which you may have noticed from baiken's dustloops in previous games.

Technically it could be possible to negate youzansen's landing recovery by jump installing so even if you get the superjump youzansen you could still do something like RC j.K > double jump, however if you're going to be blowing the meter after youzansen for a combo from mid screen you probably just want to j.(S)D FRC airdash tatami. If you're already in the corner, you can go more directly into her corner loop, throwing in 6H depending on the spacing.

The one area of this game this actually does have a big impact on is the use of j.D from neutral, which is very strong in general due to its hitbox and speed. By timing your double jump before landing, you can reduce the risk of getting capitalized on from the landing recovery, and in fact if an opponent seeks to punish you it can open up offensive options like airdashing at them low to the ground when they think you might not be able to act in time.

[kaeru]

Thanks for clarifying that Hellmonkey !! So that would mean if you FRC Youzansen and did j.K -> double jump you could actually negate the landing recovery. Very cool, I had no idea.

How would you go about jump installing for j.D? Could you give an example with notation, please?

[Hellmonkey]

Sorry for the confusion, there is no way I know of to jump install your super-jumps from neutral. I have yet to find a common situation that would require jump installing on Baiken.

I was just referring to using a normal jump -> j.D (usually run-jump for spacing), and jumping at the lowest possible height similar to the timing of an airdash in her old dustloops.

You can mix this up with neutral SJ>j.D if you plan to airdash at the lowest possible height instead, as it will get your j.D out where you want it slightly quicker. The Safety option here would be airdash back j.S.

If you do airdash at them like this you might be too low for a j.s j.tatami (Greedy, as it's not a guaranteed string anyways. Really only useful for fishing for counter-hits from higher up) so you might consider j.S(delay)PK to hit the j.K as low as possible to negate the landing recovery by keeping them in blockstun as long as possible. Airdashing with a j.P could be a better option if they're close enough.

In this situation going for the low j.K > j.D is not as strong as a mixup because you can't land and immediately 2K/2D.

[kaeru]

I've never tried setting up a blockstring from j.D -> airdash. This sounds great ! Thanks !

[Sadeyo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q82Cb1wrQ1w&list=UUSWFwW7yDCCwwajY97IaZ3w

You guys don't have much of a critique thread so I'll share the video here for now until properly directed. I'm aware that I'm scrub and I'll have plenty of questions in the future, I wouldn't entirely count me out as a player as I'll most likely need a month to be proficient with her in a way. I am after all can perform quite well with Arcrueid and Ragna after my history of gaming in these years.

Someone please explain the GG notations as well since I have an idea but I'm not sure. 6S is still saying f.S right and so forth?

[Solid Gold Wall]

i think only bridget has a 6S

f.S is just the 5S variant that happens when you aren't close enough for c.S

[kaeru]

Hi Sadeyo, one thing I noticed that you could work on right away is the normals that you choose while spacing the opponent. Baiken is a very strange character that has some excessively long range pokes and getting used to them is really important (in my opinion). I would even go so far as to say that her neutral game pokes are more important than guard cancels when it comes to winning.

With that said, make an effort to never use her crouching P. It's her least useful poke and would only be needed in a type of frame trap situation where the specific speed and range of it was necessary. The reason why you shouldn't open up pressure with it is that it is actually NOT a low, and has horrible combo starter proration. 2K has the same proration but actually IS a low and 5P is faster and has NO extra combo starter proration. In any situation where you feel like opening pressure with 2P, you're always better off picking 5P or 2K depending on your distance and how much speed you need.

But Baiken can shine even more with her longer range pokes. I noticed you use a lot of 2S. It's a very underrated poke because the combo opportunities of it -at a glance- seem poor. Keep using this poke at neutral but be sure to try and outspace your opponent with it. Do not use it point blank. If you can hit with it, it combos into 5f.S which can combo back into 2S until the opponent is completely out of range. This is useful because for both 2S and 5f.S on a crouching opponent, you can combo directly into tatami. If you hit them with 2S and notice they are standing, on most characters you can hit confirm into 5f.S and then combo into a lowest possible j.D. Lastly, if you hit with either 5f.S or 2S and get a counter hit, you can combo into tatami as well.

If you focus on only one thing, try focusing on this to up your neutral game and comfort levels with Baiken.

This bit is useful to everyone: on the topic of 2S~5S, I recently learned to appreciate it a lot more. If your opponent blocks your max distance 2S without FD, you will 90% of the time be in the PERFECT spacing for a tatami that only hits with the closing portion. This makes it extremely safe and very troublesome for the opponent to move. The slightest forward movement from their hurtbox will get them hit, and in most cases they have to pick their attack/movement carefully or stay and block the closing mat, leaving Baiken free to reset pressure.

[Sadeyo]

A character board that actually helps, I sniffled up some and thanks for the advice Kaeru. I was in the training room again after a minor discussion about learning more of Baiken technology in Skype and surprisingly this character shouldn't be underestimated. I can't fathom the idea of her being anywhere near the bottom of the tier list and after browsing a few generated ones she's like 5th from the bottom if I recall correctly. Being inexperienced I suppose my opinion doesn't matter on that subject but after watching Maruken open a can of whup-ass on just countless players I feel like stealing his technology, it's almost funny when many say you can't rush down with her and he overcomes that boundary with some very smart moves and precise inputs making the most out of the confirms.

Another thing that irritates me is that she's not so much pad friendly if you want to get the most out of her so I'll be talking to some family to mail me my stick or I'm ordering a cheap one while I'm still stuck out here. This may cause a slow down in my upload and possibly sharing ideas. I'll most likely come by tomorrow to post about the notations unless the group in the Skype happens to make clear of it.

p.s.- I'll still practice but I feel like I won't be at my pinnacle.

[kaeru]

Learning a new character is a great time to switch to stick (Assuming you are not already used to playing on stick!).

You're welcome for the advice, it's our pleasure ! Post back with results from training or any questions. I realized while re-reading my post that some bits might have been unclear. If there is anything you don't quite get let me know and I, or someone else here, will try to explain it differently.

[Sadeyo]

So I think I may have figured out my controller issue but I'll still have my family send my stick from home. My main complaints were poor execution on suzuran and immediately cancelling it into an alpha counter which would vary in results doing on the player side. Though here's a cheap gimmick I attempt to do on pad was 6247K and gotten off suzuran smoothly on both sides, may have been fluke but this improvised version may due till after my equipment comes in. I'm still fooling around with TK youzensan but TK DPs were never my forte so this may take a minute because I only pulled it off twice out of 20 attempts if I remember correctly.

Is it just me or does Baiken feel somewhat similar to Bullet? Limited normals, their combos are somewhat chained into some amusing properties in the corner (if you step outside the tatami loop), Bullet arsenal being strong on heat depending on her whereabouts on the stage while Baiken can expose reckless normal behavior with her counters on counters. Giving Bullet a guard counter would be very amusing while Baiken walks off with one amusing command grab. Maybe the way I play Bullet (my sub) or Baiken I can feel a lot of similarities between the two. Excuse the useless ranting though I can barely see the similarities between Baiken and Hakumen.

Hopefully by tomorrow I can look into the combo thread if all shortcuts on the pad prove useful, maybe we'll get some footage this weekend. Hopefully my Chipp buddy down the hall will end up practicing instead of useless mashing like the first video.

[Stoneroth]

I've never been able to play pad well, so I don't really understand how people can...but anyway, I think playing stick will really help with inputs such as IAD Tatami (236956K) and TK Youzansen > RC > j.Tatami (62369S > 236[KSH] > ]K[), the general/strategy thread lists some input variations but I find this best personally.

I find Baiken is far more interesting then she appears on the surface and watching Maruken play is always amazing, he really makes the most of the character.

[Sadeyo]

Considering +R is possibly the last installment for AC+ what is Baiken position in the tier list? Every character is stupidly unique and have their own tools but whenever I look for the +R tier list it seems to be everyone else's personal list instead of a professionally gathered one. Oh right, I have put much in the game in the last few weeks, blame the military for stealing all of the time so hopefully I can try and provide some kind of video by this week or next and get some more help.

 

Still haven't invested into that stick either. Too concerned if I will be dragged into that month course and if I'm not present to pick up the item during my absence it will get sent back.