[GGAC+R] & [GGAC] Baiken - General Discussion

[Hellmonkey]

Holy shit at these changes. Really curious how she will play now, seems like a lot of her strengths were shuffled around.

New 6P and youshijin are nice, she will be able to anti-air like a normal character. -12 GB on youshjin sounds a bit harsh.

Both 6PH and 6SH should be stronger now.

She will need to blow tension for midscreen knockdowns for a lot of characters with the change to j.D untechable frames probably.

Using a quickest ouren sounds like it could be really good now with the invincibility change, and easier to combo from? I want to know where Baiken ends up after that FRC (if airborne, you could potentially airthrow people with quickest ouren -> FRC -> airthrow before even a level 1 move finishes hitstop). Suzuran -> ouren -> frc might be a nice approach.

Sounds like kabari -> 5h works against airborne now?

Wonder if we can combo after 2HS against airborne now.

Sakura is the new youshijin? 10 frames with no invincibility and pops up. Strange.

[kaeru]

I think the changes to sakura and ouren are specifically to accomodate the fact they can be used out of hitstop via Suzuran, now. It will be cool to suzuran, ouren FRC into overhead or let it go for crossup overhead. Since it pulls in towards Baiken now, on hit and on block, maybe it can be pickedup without counter hit.

Sakura wall slam on air hit will be interesting.

Kabari is going to look so amazing when it works on air hit. Ground slide towards Baiken with increased untech time ! Hitting someone with Kabari when theyre airborn is going to be an easy pickup and really cool looking !

Suzuran cancel to guard moves from 9-24 is a way bigger window then i expected, and much sooner then i expected.

[Tong]

Triple Tatami!? Like the EX Version? =o

Wow, must have lots of recover. That thing is seriously strong.

[Mr. Kimura]

My obsession with mats can now be satisfied.

[kaeru]

Hellmonkey, correct me if i am wrong.. With these changes a fastest possible sakura cannot be grabbed out anymore. Despite losing invincibility, the new speed means that a fastest possible sakura guarantees active frames during hitstop ! (except for moves with exceptional hitstop or projectiles)

[Hellmonkey]

That is correct, because every typical move is at least 11F hitstop (level 1). This sounds really really awesome for keeping someone in the corner. I want to see it in action.

As an alternative to tick throwing, I'm thinking sakura option select right outside throw range > throw with 66>6PH or 66>6SH could be extremely strong too. Will punish all of the annoyingly fast option selects as reversal.

Running sakura option select could be ridiculously good. 66 4SK12>1[K], S>K. (where > is 1/2 frame gap)

Kabari was already a good pressure tool. With faster startup and 6P>6K gatling, it might be even stronger, but not as safe from as close as before because +1f recovery. (which shouldn't be an issue if you just did 6P 6K into it, and now we have an 8F option select in c.5S)

Edited June 28, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[Star-Demon]

Triple Tatami? Like TATAMI! 1 -2 -3? LOL woooow. I love it. MORE TATAMIS.

A pressure tool. That's fucking hot.

They emasculated Sakura, though. The invincibility was a good tradeoff for its startup and recovery.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Star-Demon

[Star-Demon]

I think - in general - they are trying to move Baiken away from the "cheapness" of her character. Now she is getting tools to open players up and pressure them instead of just lure them into making a mistake.

Those Baiken versus Baiken mirrors are going to be a whole lot more interesting.

[tolore]

6HS new star of combos if we can manage it? Still hits hard and builds WAY less meter. Kabari counterhits may be pretty brutal now, and if we can ^HS off of corner stuff with new tatamis, or kabari air hits etc.. could be pretty neat. Kabari new on hit is bad ass as well.

edit: also agree with above, sakura and ouran are losing the "freeness", much harder to use properly but way more reward(specially on ouran, frc and more guarenteed combos is sweet).

Edited June 28, 2012 by tolore

[Hellmonkey]

Maybe all of her best loops will use 6HS iad j.PD fastfall or other variations with 6HS. The move will definitely see more combo use.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Hellmonkey

[tolore]

hmmm what's the recovery on suzuran, could be a nice 3 way mix up on oki, early suzuran->low, suzuran->ouran->frc, suzuran->ouran, I guess that also assumes knockdown is long enough or she can start the run early enough.

edit: ah 30 frames recovery, way too many, if only the counter time extended into that!

[Hellmonkey]

We can do mawarikomi or mawarikomi FRC instead though.

[Shinjin]

I think suzuran mawarikomi okizeme might be difficult to use in a good way. Feels like you can easily end up in the throw range of your opponent, but it will definitly be something that I would play around with

Also looking forward to trying out combos like:

Ground hit 6P -> Youshijin -> Air Combo

Gattling -> Tatami FRC -> Kabari (sliding down) -> Air Combo

Air Combo -> jK -> jc -> jHS Tatami -> ???

Air hit 6P -> Kabari (sliding down) -> Air Combo

Kabari Sliding down -> 6HS -> jD frc -> ad jHS Tatami -> ???

[Hellmonkey]

One nice thing about crossing them up is that option select throws turn into FD like we already see with gunblaze. With youzansen and 6KH I think it could be pretty good. Wonder if we can force crossups in the corner with it.

[Shinjin]

You make valid points good sir (nice ninja editing also btw). And it is fancy indeed. It would however still cost 25% for a crossup That is at maximum 22 frames fast + speed of the move that you do afterwards. Very much blockable.

And you also assume that people are only using one kind of throw option select. They could for example be using the rise up throw or fd option select (which is much better vs a baiken that is dashin towards you since it destroys the 6K/throw mixup).

In this scneraio that we are talking about: you probably still would get thrown even after the crossup. Or in were you to do mawarikomi frc 6K -> you would most likely eat a c.S instead (since most characters c.S are fast).

And it also makes no sense to use tension in order to cross up and then do the yzn. Then I would much rather force them into the tk yzn rc mixup straight away.

Still fancy and a bit usable though ^_^

[tolore]

Anyone see baiken on the stream last night? The one I saw was experimenting with combos and not really finding anything good. No knock down and low damage on everything. Counters were also looking sad, but hopefully it's just because everything is pretty different.

IT does look like we can combo off of yoshijin, he even got a 6H off yoshijin on non counterhit, but he didn't combo into, just a raw yoshi.

[Shinjin]

Anyone see baiken on the stream last night? The one I saw was experimenting with combos and not really finding anything good. No knock down and low damage on everything. Counters were also looking sad, but hopefully it's just because everything is pretty different.

IT does look like we can combo off of yoshijin, he even got a 6H off yoshijin on non counterhit, but he didn't combo into, just a raw yoshi.

Sakura looks really good in this verison. It's soooooo fast now (10f). 1f faster than Baku in AC :V

Dashing up a bit in the neutral game to bait pokes and then doing a instant sakura (frc) will be a retarded "counter poke" if it stays this way and sakura has the same hitbox as in AC. It will be worse in rise-up situations though, where the lack of inv makes things a bit shaky. For my playstyle I would still see it as a buff.

Mawarikomi stayed the same.

Ouren sure sucks the opponent towards you, on block and hit. Better reward but also bigger risk. I'll take that.

6p comboed into 6K (?!?!?!?) which gives 6p that is a really good counterpoke that had poor reward before better reward. You can also combo 6p into youshijin.

And combos.. well looking at some of the matches the nerf on jD untechable time is significant and the reward from combos will sure be different. I think getting decent reward on lights from youshijin-combos might be a bit tricky perhaps, since they will be so high up in the air.

But when it comes to ground combos; well nobody was doing it but I think tatami frc kabari might be the way to go. I did see a Baiken do Kabari air hit into 6HS 2D jS (then he failed), so it should be possible with the new bounce from the ground tatami. It should also put the opponent on a pretty good height as well.

Theory gaming hardcore but.. maybe:

tensionless combos might be youshijin-combos.

25 % and a bit close to the corner might be tatami frc kabari combos

50 % and a bit close to the corner might be tatami frc kabari 6hs jD(frc) or 2d jD(frc) air dash tatami combos.

But yeah, we might not get knockdown and not as much damage from EVERYTHING anymore ^^

I am curious how 2k5sjD frc ad tatami combos work now though... Didn't see anyone doing them, nor did I see how the opponent bounces after those kind of tatamis in those kind of situations... But I am curious!

[tolore]

Yeah hopefully today we'll see some more Baiken play, see if they discover anything cool, with how drastic the changes were there's a lot of stuff to mess around with. 6P->6K definitely comboed sometimes, but I saw him whiff it. I wasn't paying enough attention, it may have been only hitting with one of the hits of 6P, or maybe he just did it faster/slower. It'll be interesting to see what gets discovered.

[tolore]

new interesting stuff. Corner combos whatever->tatami->2d->jump->j.p->j.k->jump cancel(?)->j.H->tatami. He kept dropping the combo after that but it looked like he could do more.

Mid screen combos possibility whatever->5H-> triple tatami again didn't actually combo after this but it looked like it could be possible.

still haven't seen essentially any counters used, I think I've seen two sakuras, both landed but didn't do anything after it.

edit: also kabari->6HS->IAD->stuff

edit again: mid screen stuff->tatami->FRC->IAD->j.s->j.d

Edited July 1, 2012 by tolore

[Star-Demon]

I missed it. There's more July 1st, so I look forward to seeing more.

Don't worry, though. We'll get some combos.

[Star-Demon]

I practiced a bit yesterday on my bad setup. Tried not to use gaurd cancels and instead focused on fundamental pressure and mixup.

6KH seems to 6K > 6H...I must be doing something wrong. How do I set up this situation so I can practice it?

[kaeru]

try it after a mawarikomi or suzuran, places where you would normally grab. You can also meaty 6K when you have Okizeme to get an absurd amount of plus frames, then run up and 6KH to attempt a grab.

[Tong]

Ugh, I dont get these air tatami combos... Which one is better to spend a FRC?

2D tatami sj.PD AD j.SD FRC air tatami sj.SD AD j.SD <- This is troublesome to do, since the height requirement for air tatami seems... random? Actually, does this even work? lol

2D tatami FRC sj.SD AD j.SPSD <- I'm pretty sure there's a better fastfall j.D combo after tatami FRC. Iirc it involves 5S relaunches.

[kaeru]

For the first instance, remember making air tatami work is not just about how high you are but also how deep into the corner. If you are very deep into the corner, you can even delay the air tatami after the j.D FRC (depends on character). The combo itself is very character specific because they will be at variable heights, but you can help tighten up the combo by trying different combinations of air normals before the j.D FRC. Stuff like j.PSD or j.SPD or even j.KD or j.PKD. The more hits you do, the less deep into the corner you will get which is somewhat counter productive, but against some characters the right combination of air normals goes a long way.

I'm sure Hellmonkey has some concrete examples for exactly what to do. He did show us an excellent fastfall combo to try on Slayer and Testament:

at a certain distance away from the corner xx -> Tatami FRC -> IAD -> D (causing fastfall) -> land (-> 5S) -> Tatami relaunch

the relaunch can be followed up with a super jump, but i've been only relatively successful with the end of the combo myself.

[Hellmonkey]

Ugh, I dont get these air tatami combos... Which one is better to spend a FRC?

2D tatami sj.PD AD j.SD FRC air tatami sj.SD AD j.SD <- This is troublesome to do, since the height requirement for air tatami seems... random? Actually, does this even work? lol

2D tatami FRC sj.SD AD j.SPSD <- I'm pretty sure there's a better fastfall j.D combo after tatami FRC. Iirc it involves 5S relaunches.

The most important point as kaeru touched on is how deep in the corner you are for the combo. To maximize your horizontal movement some moves can be added like j.P, but the best way to do this is correctly delay your j.S>D and use your forward/run jump momentum.

When close enough in after ground tatami, take the tensionless launch to j.p unless you are planning to blow 50 or 75%. If planning to blow lots of meter cutting out any high gb- move like j.p is always worth it. If not, you can take your tension from the first part of the combo and blow max 25% for the extra j.tatami>(j.sd or j.d)>ad j.sd

I like to use fastfall for 25% when too far to reach with tensionless j.p after ground tatami (although with great timing you can run jump it and still connect). You can easily land the deep run>j.SD after tatami frc near the corner. Then do airdash j.PD as fast as possible and you can land early for a 5s j.D (lowest j.D timing). For Medium/Heavy character weights.

Against lighter characters the best option is typically aiming for that deep j.SD FRC tatami, then immediately SJ.D ad j.SD. You can also do fastfall j.PD>dash 2D combos as mentioned in the combo section of the baiken guide.

One combo to learn with the upcoming revision is 6hs>iad j.PSD relaunch instead of 5S j.D. 6H is 15 frames like ground tatami so equally hard to relaunch with it (re:fastfall combo section in guide), but using 6h in combos will definitely be key with the huge gb- reduction.

I practiced a bit yesterday on my bad setup. Tried not to use gaurd cancels and instead focused on fundamental pressure and mixup.

6KH seems to 6K > 6H...I must be doing something wrong. How do I set up this situation so I can practice it?

Turn on input, make sure K and H are being hit at the same time and you get a 6K or a throw. Time it after their wakeup so you might just be too early to throw them, or after running in (go to neutral or FD brake>6 for 'sliding' motion) and 6KH to see how it can be used from neutral.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Hellmonkey