[GGAC+R] & [GGAC] Baiken - General Discussion

[Tong]

Awesome, thank for the insight you two.

Gotta work on these Bnbs since they're the core of many of Baiken combos.

[Star-Demon]

Working on helpful Baiken stuff, thought I'd share some silly stuff:

Edited July 13, 2012 by Star-Demon

[Tong]

American Maruken.

[Star-Demon]

I have a lot of watching and reading to catch up on, but being unemployed will help.

I'm gonna compile and write everything into my new guide. I hope you guys like it. Any advice or new info or references will be appreciated.

American Maruken.

Dawwww.

[kaeru]

3rd loketest changes and some thoughts

・2S

Startup faster ? this is unconfirmed

・2HS

The vacuum effect diagonally downwards from the 2nd loketest is gone (I suppose he means vacuum effect against opponents in the air)

- Tatami Gaeshi

On CH the opponent flies so high now that you can connect with kabari (41236H). It also has a hitbox when "closing". As it only hits a little bit it doesn't seem possible to combo and because of this it seems that it will be difficult to pursue the opponent with a dash now. I am very curious about this, it's unclear, based on the translation, if tatami wall bounces or not anymore. The closing hit being different from the first is nothing new, but how it's been changed we'll have to wait and see

- FB Tatami gaeshi

FRC added. Startup is faster so you can combo from S moves. When hitting the opponent will sometimes fly in the air but sometimes just get knocked down. This depends on the distance at which your hitting with the move and obviously which of the 3 tatamis are hitting, but I couldn't figure out precisely the conditions for knocking down or launch with the moves. if it can be combo-ed into this might actually become usefull. If regular Tatami -> FRC becomes less interesting to use, Tatami FB might replace it for the same meter cost

- Zankyoukuruma

Possible to air guard now (without FD).

Info from the first 2 location tests is a few pages back here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14017-Baiken-General-Discussion&p=1348943&viewfull=1#post1348943

Edited August 16, 2012 by kaeru

[Star-Demon]

Firstly - I thought the "American Maruken" was an empty joke, and then I watched Maruken and laughed at how similar we play. We want and do the same things very often. (Maruken is, ofc, much faster and has better execution than me) Thanks for that - I have a new person to watch.

I will have to watch EU Baiken Shinjin? more, too. I was very impressed at the confirms and situations that lead to more bounces in corner. I want that.

After watching what's available - Very worried about this character in ACR. If the JP Baikens don't have it together by next month this is going to be a difficult character to succeed with in her current state. I think there's either a big wall with what she can do or the technology hasn't been invented.

I hope there's stuff that still runs good damage with corner advantage. It looks like you're losing corner if you go for damage. Sadface. Any new combos that can do the old job?

[Fujiwara]

Well, the game will be in our hands pretty soon, around Oct 24th, I believe. They're working on a simultaneous patch release. We'll all be able to get our hands on Baiken and see what we can figure out ourselves.

Also, a question for any Baiken's that are going to NEC, if +R does come around towards the end of October, or early November, are you going to play more AC, or +R. I'm debating between either since I don't wanna flush out my AC stuff for +R stuff and fuck up during a match trying to do new shit on reflex.

[kaeru]

If we somehow got +R at the same time as AC, I wouldn't be surprised if NEC changed their listings to play +R instead of AC. We'll have to wait and see !! I was under the impression we wouldn't be getting +R at the same time, though. Hopefully my impression was wrong !

[Star-Demon]

I get grabbed too much.

I want to start practicing the Grab OS, but I'm not sure what to do exactly or how to do it from jump in, from crossup, and from Mawarikomi.

How exactly is this done? (besides "do 6KH")

As well, I want to improve pressure and start using frame traps more.

[kaeru]

I'm not very good with grabs myself, but perhaps this completely different option select grab might prove useful to you. It's easier to use since it's not something that needs to be setup, it will just work when it can. Whenever you think an opponent will jump, try going for j.PH when doing your grab. Remember to actually let them jump first since airgrabs favor one who is just below their target. If you don't grab or time it wrong, Baiken's j.P is a surprisingly amazing normal to throw out and will beat lots of situff.

[Star-Demon]

I'm not very good with grabs myself, but perhaps this completely different option select grab might prove useful to you. It's easier to use since it's not something that needs to be setup, it will just work when it can. Whenever you think an opponent will jump, try going for j.PH when doing your grab. Remember to actually let them jump first since airgrabs favor one who is just below their target. If you don't grab or time it wrong, Baiken's j.P is a surprisingly amazing normal to throw out and will beat lots of situff.

[kaeru]

I'll try it. j.PH - so I should just set up CPU for some deep airdashes? What if they use late meaty downward normals like Ky's Dizzy's or ummm...anything like that?

If you're getting airdashed on with a meaty, definitely go for 6P to be safe. The air grab is more of an air footsie tool OR a means to keep someone, who is trying to escape, grounded. The nice thing is though, since j.P is going to beat a lot of air footsies, you won't get punished too often for trying to grab. Why not try setting up a CPU to airdash crossing you up and try to stop them in their tracks with j.PH ? The best practice for this technique is going to be in real matches though.

Edited October 19, 2012 by kaeru

[Star-Demon]

If you're getting airdashed on with a meaty, definitely go for 6P to be safe. The air grab is more of an air footsie tool OR a means to keep someone, who is trying to escape, grounded. The nice thing is though, since j.P is going to beat a lot of air footsies, you went get punished too often for trying to grab. Why not try setting up a CPU to airdash crossing you up and try to stop them in their tracks with j.PH ? The best practice for this technique is going to be in real matches though.

I tried it for a while last night - it's very difficult on pad, and I don't quite like the fact I'm not really reacting or guessing more than responding to my own timing.

I'm having a really hard time with this. Do I get grabbed so much because everyone is mashing heavy slash whenever they are close to me or am I getting grabbed because they know exactly when to grab and are outright faster thinkers than me?

Frustrating to think about.

EDIT:

I somehow think instant air grabs, Grab OS, and every other technique are all "must have or you can go home" things.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Star-Demon

[kaeru]

Hopefully this will help you out a bit further:

The philosophy behind grabbing in GG is more then just a means to deal with someone turtling. Grabs are the fastest possible attack in the game and are guaranteed once started unless the other person does the exact same thing at the same time. What this means is that in the back of your mind you have to remember that grabbing will always win, and you are trying to win. Does that mean you have to always do setups to grab your opponent? absolutely not ! But it does mean that when you are in range, you must grab. Recognizing when a grab will work and when the opponent is too far, or about to jump only comes with experience. However remember that you must always grab when it WILL work. I'm sure you know these things already but it's more a matter of experience and thought process then just knowledge. Don't worry about learning to do it or going home or any of that business. Negativity won't get anyone anywhere.

As far as setups, you know about suzuran and mawarikomi as excellent grab setups, why not think of using the grab as a "followup" for the purpose of practicing it. Next time you commit to a mawarikomi, input your 6KH right away, don't wait to see the result. Similar to how you might do Sakura -> FRC because it's better on hit or on block, you FRC it without so much care about the actual result of the Sakura. I think many grab setups are about committing to them ahead of time.

(also keep in mind suzuran -> grab is an even better mixup in the next game at high level since players might expect all sorts of followups when they see it coming)

EDIT: Unless you start binding lots of shortcuts, i can't feasibly imagine doing option select airgrab on pad :/

Edited October 19, 2012 by kaeru

[Star-Demon]

"If you can you must" - That clears that up.

I used to get the Mawarikomi grab a lot - not anymore.

I've been missing a lot of Mawarikomi grabs because I don't know when 6KH happens. so it's basically 412K6KH before Baiken even goes around - that will help.

Wasn't next version Mawarikomi less safe? Goes farther? I forgot.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Star-Demon
I was sleepy.

[kaeru]

the new version of suzuran can be cancelled into any guard cancel (even forcebreak) from the beginning of the run, even before you can see the startup of suzuran, and without guarding a move first. Therefore if you use suzuran at certain distances, you could cancel into the any guard cancel or let it finish and grab, or mawarikomi instantly -> grab. The speed at which you can cancel into guard cancels almost feels broken. Some of her new combos involve using suzuran -> baku as ender, for example. Or suzuran -> air wheel guard cancel for guaranteed knockdown, even on very prorated combos.

for clarification:

Suzuran -> command dash

Mawarikomi -> crossup guard cancel (has an FRC to fake the crossup)

[Star-Demon]

Sorry - I derped. Lemme fix what I wrote.

[Star-Demon]

Well, I'm close, but I still don't understand it yet. I'm really just trying to figure it out myself.

[kaeru]

Well, I'm close, but I still don't understand it yet. I'm really just trying to figure it out myself.

video

Try the following combo instead for more damage and more efficient use of meter

XX -> 236K (FRC) > sj.S > sj.D, AD*, j.S > j.D (FRC), 236K**, land, j.S > j.D, AD*, j.S > j.D

*the timing for this airdash requires patience. Try to visually confirm all the green of Baiken's dragon cannon disappearing before attempting to dash

**the timing for this tatami needs to be very deep into the corner and somewhat close to the ground. It is not exactly "as soon as possible" and requires practice.

this only costs you 50 meter to do this and it will do more damage. Don't listen to people trying to tell you to use her overdrive to deal damage. Having 50 meter means having an unreactable overhead that goes into 50% of your opponent's health. (more if you have 75 meter)

Edit: it's also worth mentioning that the above combo's timings are different against each member of the cast.

Edited October 22, 2012 by kaeru

[Fujiwara]

How would I go about this combo on characters like Johnny? Whenever I get a Youzansen RC, I tend to drop it after the first J.SD. He's so damn heavy.

[Star-Demon]

Try the following combo instead for more damage and more efficient use of meter

XX -> 236K (FRC) > sj.S > sj.D, AD*, j.S > j.D (FRC), 236K**, land, j.S > j.D, AD*, j.S > j.D

*the timing for this airdash requires patience. Try to visually confirm all the green of Baiken's dragon cannon disappearing before attempting to dash

**the timing for this tatami needs to be very deep into the corner and somewhat close to the ground. It is not exactly "as soon as possible" and requires practice.

this only costs you 50 meter to do this and it will do more damage. Don't listen to people trying to tell you to use her overdrive to deal damage. Having 50 meter means having an unreactable overhead that goes into 50% of your opponent's health. (more if you have 75 meter)

Edit: it's also worth mentioning that the above combo's timings are different against each member of the cast.

I'll try to switch over to that. I've mostly been just figuring things out myself by watching Nerina.

[kaeru]

video

How would I go about this combo on characters like Johnny? Whenever I get a Youzansen RC, I tend to drop it after the first J.SD. He's so damn heavy.

Fujiwara, i have the same problem actually. I spent a long time trying to figure some stuff out to make it work better against Johnny. It's not just his weight that is the problem, he has this really strange way of falling, too. It makes him thinner and harder to hit. I would suggest you try 2 things:

YZS (RC), 236K, land, (s)j.PSD, AD, j.SD

that one extra punch, if you land it very early during your super jump should allow you to get 2 reps of j.SD, but i've never consistently been able to get the fourth rep though, so spending the extra meter might not be worth it.

The second thing i'd like you to try, is to come up with a good use of a fastfall dust combo. Johnny is actually really easy to hit with a fastfall dust so it seems worth it to come up with a variation that uses it. The advantage of using a fastfall dust combo in this case would be to get a 3rd j.D without spending any extra meter. Try the following and see what you can come up with:

YZN (RC), 236K, land, sj.PSD, AD, j.PD*, land -

and then you can try different things and test for consistency. Like land, 5(c.)S, j.D or, land, j.D

*This j.PD after the airdash will allow you to still have strong forward momentum by the time you reach j.D. What this does is basically counteract the backwards float of j.D and make you fall to the ground really quickly. This also works if you go straight into AD, j.D. Naturally you want the j.PD or j.D to be as soon as possible after the airdash to use that forward momentum. This is what they call "fastfall" dust.

Completely unrelated, but on the topic of Johnny, even when doing normal combos against him i tend to use 236K (FRC), sj.SPSD as my first rep, just to make sure he is high enough to get hit by AD -> j.SD afterwards.

I'll try to switch over to that. I've mostly been just figuring things out myself by watching Nerina.

Star-Demon, everything in Fujiwara's short clip after the tatami is exactly what the combo I explained looks like. It's a happy coincidence to have a visual reference right on time (Thank you Fujiwara)! With that, after you FRC a tatami on the ground, you'd only need 25% more to extend the combo, or leave it as is after 2 reps of j.D. Keep in mind the first j.SD has to be nice and deep into the corner for this to work, a good way to produce that result is to micro dash forward before you super jump, and use that running forward momentum to carry you forward. Adding a slight delay between the first j.S and D can help too, letting Baiken inch forward with her normal forward jump momentum between the two moves.

Edited October 23, 2012 by kaeru

[kaeru]

After getting home and revisiting the combo i was trying to make i have a reliable version for you to try to go for against Johnny and some new tips that might help you come up with your own version.

Fastfall Dust combo:

YZN (RC), 236K, land, j.PSD, AD, j.PD, land, 5(c.)S, j.D

doing a super jump actually made the combo more difficult, so im sorry for suggesting that at first, i was mistaken, a normal jump is sufficient. Just make sure that you hit Johnny's legs with the first j.P, and do your AD as soon as possible. If you don't fastfall after doing AD, j.PD it's because you waited too long after the dash to do the j.PD and you lost the momentum. It's pretty tight but very doable with practice.

Other tips:

try doing j.KSD after you jump from tatami, this works really well too and might be easier in some instances. What i don't like about doing the j.K though is that if your jump is perfect and you hit Johnny at the earliest possible moment like you should be, it can make the j.S whiff. A casual jump is all you need for j.KSD to work. Try it yourself and im sure you'll come up with your own ways of doing it too.

I decided to record a video of the fastfall effect and the combo that i mentioned for you guys:

Edited October 24, 2012 by kaeru

[Star-Demon]

Fujiwara, i have the same problem actually. I spent a long time trying to figure some stuff out to make it work better against Johnny. It's not just his weight that is the problem, he has this really strange way of falling, too. It makes him thinner and harder to hit. I would suggest you try 2 things:

YZS (RC), 236K, land, (s)j.PSD, AD, j.SD

that one extra punch, if you land it very early during your super jump should allow you to get 2 reps of j.SD, but i've never consistently been able to get the fourth rep though, so spending the extra meter might not be worth it.

The second thing i'd like you to try, is to come up with a good use of a fastfall dust combo. Johnny is actually really easy to hit with a fastfall dust so it seems worth it to come up with a variation that uses it. The advantage of using a fastfall dust combo in this case would be to get a 3rd j.D without spending any extra meter. Try the following and see what you can come up with:

YZN (RC), 236K, land, sj.PSD, AD, j.PD*, land -

and then you can try different things and test for consistency. Like land, 5(c.)S, j.D or, land, j.D

*This j.PD after the airdash will allow you to still have strong forward momentum by the time you reach j.D. What this does is basically counteract the backwards float of j.D and make you fall to the ground really quickly. This also works if you go straight into AD, j.D. Naturally you want the j.PD or j.D to be as soon as possible after the airdash to use that forward momentum. This is what they call "fastfall" dust.

Completely unrelated, but on the topic of Johnny, even when doing normal combos against him i tend to use 236K (FRC), sj.SPSD as my first rep, just to make sure he is high enough to get hit by AD -> j.SD afterwards.

Star-Demon, everything in Fujiwara's short clip after the tatami is exactly what the combo I explained looks like. It's a happy coincidence to have a visual reference right on time (Thank you Fujiwara)! With that, after you FRC a tatami on the ground, you'd only need 25% more to extend the combo, or leave it as is after 2 reps of j.D. Keep in mind the first j.SD has to be nice and deep into the corner for this to work, a good way to produce that result is to micro dash forward before you super jump, and use that running forward momentum to carry you forward. Adding a slight delay between the first j.S and D can help too, letting Baiken inch forward with her normal forward jump momentum between the two moves.

Cool - thanks to both - I'll come back when I have time and start work on it, although my own setup currently lags so I have to remaster timing everywhere I go. I'll make flashcards.

Shame that light characters give me such trouble, but I'm working on it.

[Hellmonkey]

regarding the fast fall combo on Johnny, try going straight into run j.SD without the punch after launching with something like an air mat, you usually don't need the j.p unless you are trying to combo tension less from a mat, or need the height for an air dash j.SD.

It's actually possible to more or less combo normally with j.SD after your airdash as long as you delay your first j.SD as mentioned, but you have to time the airdash and j.S pretty much as soon as possible, the timing is a little tight. SPSD also works for extra height as mentioned.

One good way to practice against Johnny is to get the combo down in the corner after a throw. The combo is throw – mat – j.(p)psd – air dash j.sd.

In general, it's not worth blowing your meter for extra repetitions in the corner. He has weak reversals aside from his options select c.5s and reversal super that you have to watch out for especially from bad Johnnys. It's very important to get your knockdowns against him from your ground combos using c.5s or f.5s into j.D, allowing you to continue pressure after landing a 2k