[CSE] Relius Wish List

[Guardian]

So after playing a crapton of matches vs a variety of characters and play styles, I can only conclude that Relius is a somewhat incomplete character. The purpose of this thread is of course, to make suggestions (reasonable ones) that will improve him. Not all of these should be combined, but the implementation of just one or two would make him a much better character.

1) Reduce the invuln frames and recovery of led ley by half.

-This would allow for a quick get out of jail free card without being easily baited by 5As and 5Bs. It would still be vulnerable to throws, and if you do it at the wrong time you'd still get CH into a huge combo for free.

2)Give one of Ignis' normals complete superarmor.

-His whole concept is tight frame traps, and making someone want to move. This would make mashers think twice, and keep people from running at him at certain angles.

3)Give him a command grab.

-Nothing silly like Hazama or Tager, but just something to help open people up. This would help supplement his horrid mixup game. For balance purposes, make it prorate by 50%, or allow him to get no more than 2.5k damage off of it. This could also summon ignis if she isn't already out.

4)Reduce the recovery of ignis specials, or shorten the time between doing one ignis special into another.

-This would aid with zoning, and increase combo potential.

5)A LEGIT ANTI-AIR.

-Everyone in the cast has one except for him. 2C is mediocre at best, and 4D is dependent upon ignis being out, and doesn't cover the space in front of him. 5a and 6b are EXTREMELY situational.

6)Put gaps in the hits on Val Tus

-To increase mix up potential

7)When comboing someone, reduce the amount of ignis meter used by half. The initial hit can cost 100%, but the subsequent hits will cost 50%.

-this way, when you FINALLY hit someone after a mixup, you have a bit of meter to do more damage than just 1-2.9k midscreen w/o killing her.

8)Only put Ignis in blue recovery state when she is hit.

-Just b/c you guess right on a relius grab, doesn't mean he should be punished for it.

My personal choices would be 3,5 and 7.

I'm always up for a good discussion, so if you think any of these changes alone, or together, would break him (when I say break I mean bumped to SS+ class) feel free to post up and say why. List changes of your own! Not that we'll probably get any of them, but we can dream right?

[Dusk Thanatos]

I honestly just want the gap on 2D gone, for 2D to cost about half as much, to have Ignis at match start, and to have TK j.214B.

As for what you proposed:

1 is nice. 2 is ehhh. 3 would be silly. 4, I don't see any need for. 5 would be nice. 6, NO NO NO NO NO. Val Tus is good as-is for covering airdash mixup, and I don't want people's stupid asses DPing me out of my IAD mixup. 7 is probably too good, though I'd like it. 8 is skewed a bit. Instead of changing the recovery, she should just not be dismissed on throw break.

[Chazmobile]

1. 6a to be sped up so that it's actually something to be feared

2. More Ignis meter or moves cost less so that you can actually do decent damage after a mixup and you can maintain pressure after a combo.

3. Buff the hitbox on 2c and possibly one or two other normals. (Possibly allowing for instant overhead J.c which can only be followed up by rapid cancel.)

4. (This one is a bit stupid) Maybe reduce the time Ignis is in slow regen or remove it, if Valk can have a mode that is so pivotal to his gameplay unhindered by such a draw-back, why must poor Relius?

5. Better startup on Lanto.

Troll wish: Dark angel super from his unlimited form >=)

[Toasty]

I could not agree with the 2C buff more. Far too many times have I tried to use that move as an AA just to get hit out of it or have them even land behind me. A 6A buff would be nice too. You can see it coming, go make a sandwich, then come back to block it as it is right now. More range for it wouldn't hurt either. I probably just notice these moves' weaknesses because how much I would like to/do use them.

Also I know this is very unlikely to happen here, but let's make sure that this thread doesn't devolve into a flamewar. I've seen a couple of threads like this do so in the past.

[C0R]

5)A LEGIT ANTI-AIR.

-Everyone in the cast has one except for him. 2C is mediocre at best, and 4D is dependent upon ignis being out, and doesn't cover the space in front of him. 5a and 6b are EXTREMELY situational.

Like Bang?

Yeah Litchi's is pretty good too.

If Relius does get any sort of buff to his mixup, it'll be by improving the tools he already has, and only just barely, those sorts of things are very touchy. Applying even one of the changes you mentioned would drastically affect the overall strength of the character.

[Guardian]

Applying even one of the changes you mentioned would drastically affect the overall strength of the character.

That's the point ^^

Even still, it wouldn't make him better than Carl/Mu/Valk/Haku/Ragna/Arakune. IMO anyways

[Feelin'TheWind]

You know what I hate? Doing Led Ley successfully, trying to attack the opponent with Ignis, and then my opponent attacks Ignis, have their attack lags its active frames, and I get hit after Led Ley is done.

[nil8r]

I wish Relius had another non-drive overhead. The only time I feel safe using 6a is with Ignis out. I'd also like 214d to come out a bit faster, so that it'd actually be viable in mixup. Also, I wish there was some way to combo/pressure with j.214b. Maybe bouncing on counterhit, making it untechable or something. To counterbalance it, make it slower, take up more meter, or something. Catching someone with that in air-air feels satisfying, but being able to follow up after it would feel awesome.

And this one is just because I suck, but I'd like 6d to actually be slower, so I could combo/pressure with it more easily.

[Dusk Thanatos]

I wish Relius had another non-drive overhead. The only time I feel safe using 6a is with Ignis out. I'd also like 214d to come out a bit faster, so that it'd actually be viable in mixup. Also, I wish there was some way to combo/pressure with j.214b. Maybe bouncing on counterhit, making it untechable or something. To counterbalance it, make it slower, take up more meter, or something. Catching someone with that in air-air feels satisfying, but being able to follow up after it would feel awesome.

Practice airdash mixup. It's staple for this character, and makes up the vaaaaaaaaaast majority of the high/low you do

[Siefer]

IMO, Relius only really needs two things to make him significantly better:

-A way to control space horizontally in the air. If Relius had an option like this, his 2C, even as is, would become more effective as an anti-air since they can't neutral jump->AD for free against you if you don't have Ignis out. Right now, unless the opponent is reckless, or their own air tools are garbage, they have nothing to fear from Relius.

-A better overhead.

These two things alone would dramatically improve Relius' worst match-ups and even the playing field compared to other characters who can do the same amount (if not more) damage with half the effort that Relius has to put in. It would be nice if Ignis had more super armor properties, if 632146C had a better vertical hitbox (making it a much better reversal), he had a command throw, etc., but imo, those are things that Relius can live without (well, better vertical hitbox on the super would make me much happier). As it stands, with my limited experiences, I think Relius is only marginally better than Noel/Makoto/Tsubaki at the highest levels, and if he weren't such a pimp, a lot more people would have probably dropped him for more rewarding characters. I'm not a good player though, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

[Chazmobile]

I've been thinking of a few changes that Arcsys could make to Relius which would make him a stronger character overall but still in line with the rest of the cast.

It's clear that Arcsys designed him to become a very strong character with Ignis active, yet sub-par without Ignis with an emphasis more on zoning the opponent in order to safely summon her. With this in mind, here are a few ideas to help complement this reliance on Ignis:

-Speed up his overhead to 18-20 frames but make him only be able to get a reward off of it with Ignis out, or if he spends 50 meter without Ignis.

-Give him a command grab which can be followed up with Ignis out, but requires 50 meter otherwise.

-Only make Ignis go into slow regen if she herself is hit, at the moment it seems as though she goes into slow regen if Relius is even breathed on. This coupled with her low life means that Relius is left without Ignis for a lot of the match, and that he has to sacrifice damage and pressure in order to keep her alive a lot of the time. Some more Ignis life would be nice too.

-Make his 2c a good anti-air, everyone wants this. Possibly some small hitbox adjustments on some other normals like 6b.

-Speed up 2a to 6 frames, this would help him in getting out of pressure without Ignis because at the moments he's pretty free without 50 meter to CA.

These are just some thoughts I had today that would help make Relius with Ignis active the offensive God that Arcsys seemed to want him to be, but a Relius without Ignis to be hindered, yet still able to somewhat hold his own.

[Starlight777]

All I want is better mixup and a decent anti-air.

I feel like his mixup shouldn't be so non-existent if Ignis has such low life. He should be allowed to totally crack his opponents open once he catches them due to only being able to attack in such short spurts. I don't mind Ignis' crappy gauge but I do mind that most of my opponents can block me with such ease.

Also I would love if 2C got a bigger hitbox, but I'd honestly want the move to be a frame or two faster. It seems too slow to accurately punish predictable airdash attempts.

[Chazmobile]

That's why I feel those changes I suggested would help him so much, they would make him really really scary offensively with many ways to open you up, as the reward should be for having Ignis out, but still retain that vulnerability without Ignis.

Also the higher Ignis life would meant that we would still be able to get decent combo after a pressure string compared to now where we have to resort to bad damage and give up pressure just to keep Ignis alive.

[HexaNoid]

-Speed up 2a to 6 frames, this would help him in getting out of pressure without Ignis because at the moments he's pretty free without 50 meter to CA.

I think 7 frames is a pretty fair 2A for Relius and even moreso with the buffs you're proposing. If he was to get better hitboxes and mix-up potential, more Ignis life and an improved 2A to help him get out of pressure, I think that might make him a little too strong. He'd pretty much be able to do everything above averagely.

[Chazmobile]

I think 7 frames is a pretty fair 2A for Relius and even moreso with the buffs you're proposing. If he was to get better hitboxes and mix-up potential, more Ignis life and an improved 2A to help him get out of pressure, I think that might make him a little too strong. He'd pretty much be able to do everything above averagely.

True, but keep in mind he's only pulling this above average stuff with Ignis out, he'll still be meh without her. It's just in certain matchups, even with Ignis out, it's incredibly hard for him to get out of pressure without 50 meter, and even that can be baited. I can see we're you're coming from though, it could make him a tad too strong.

Whatever, I'm just salty about stagger pressure xD.

[HexaNoid]

True, but keep in mind he's only pulling this above average stuff with Ignis out, he'll still be meh without her. It's just in certain matchups, even with Ignis out, it's incredibly hard for him to get out of pressure without 50 meter, and even that can be baited.

I don't play Relius so I can't comment on the difficulty of those match-ups, but I feel there should still be some "weak point" to his play; if after all their work getting in on Relius an opponent can't even maintain pressure without the fear of being poked out, it seems a little unfair to me. Sort of how like Lambda had a DP in CS1 which was promptly taken out in CS2 for obvious reasons.

Whatever, I'm just salty about stagger pressure xD.

More like swagger pressure.

[WUT]

- 6A slightly faster startup but doesn't cancel into anything.

- 2C slightly faster startup or a larger vertical hitbox.

- Ignis doesn't disappear on throw breaks.

- j.214B faster startup and allows for a follow-up on hit at a specific height. Heavy repeat proration and slightly lower P1 and P2 values.

- j.6D travels further horizontally and is active longer.

- 236D and 214D slightly faster startup and Relius recovers much faster when the move is used if Ignis is already out. Lower P1 and P2 values.

- j.214B, 236D and 214D do not force Ignis to return to a specific position.

Faster 6A and Ignis not disappearing on throw break would solve some of Relius' mixup issues, changing throw from a risky "if they break it you lose all your offensive momentum" to a viable option for mixup that still leaves you with options if they do throw break.

I personally loathe useless moves and j.214B is right up there with the worst offenders. Faster startup gives Relius more air options (which he needs) and the follow-up potential allows for either a stronger mid-screen combo (that costs extra Ignis meter) or a more damaging mid-screen setup that isn't simply ending a combo with 3C to keep your opponent close.

The 236D and 214D are a mixed bag. They give Relius options for a high and low from Ignis and lead to unblockable setups but you're completely committed to said setup once you use either move, meaning they're only useful during oki. A slightly faster startup and letting Relius act sooner eases that commitment and provides the option for both moves to be used during pressure.

A more active and further travelling j.6D gives Relius much needed air-to-air control, but only while Ignis is out.

"Unchaining" Ignis from Relius when j.214B, 236D, and 214D are used is more in line with how the rest of Ignis' moves function and gives Relius more control over certain areas so that you can limit your opponent's means of approaching you or escaping your pressure. Using 214A and j.6D to space the aforementioned moves can lead to some interesting setups as well. 236D would slide toward the ground if used in the air, as having an "aerial" low hit yo-yo is just silly.

[zeakikung]

3,4 and 7

Relius will be god tier