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Spirit Juice

Sol vs Order Sol

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Matchup Statistics:

Openers:

Okizeme:

Punishes:

Counters:

Anti airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

Char specific details:

-- Member Submitted Info Section (if valid).

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Matchup Statistics

(I say)5.5-4.5 Match in Sol's favor. What some say: 5.5-4.5 Order-Sol's favor. If Order-Sol indeed does have the advantage it really isn't by much.

Openers:

Sol:

-5K

-2S

-5S

-2P

-2k

-move in(use above)

-Nothing

-5HS

-j.P

-late j.S

-late j.HS

Order-Sol:

-Throw

-2S

-2K

-2P

-5K

-nothing

-move in(use above)

-f.S

-j.P

-j.HS

Okizeme:

-Gunflame

-2K

-2P

Punishes:

*Any missed/blocked Storm Viper:

-5K into SW combo.

*blocked/whiff Storm Viper AC FRC:

-Air throw

*Savage Fang lvl.1(difficult). SF can crush your GF, blast you out of his face and give him time to gain at least 2 levels on his charge meter. It's 50% tension so don't expect it too often but it is an option. Afterall, do what it takes to win. Punish with:

-FB Fafnir(you must catch him in the recovery of the move. Do it too early and no CH.) If no CH you still hit him and you can get in anyway.

*Rock It lvl.1 block strings:

-There is a gap before Rock It hits you. It's a small window but you can beat it with VV or if you're really good Grand Viper. This too is rather diffcult. Only do it if you're 100% sure you can.

-Slash back the last hit of lvl.3 BRP and Rock It for free damage.

-Gunblaze: throw

*2HS

-Backdash>Wild Throw

Counters:

-Order-Sol's f.S if it's not max range can lose to Sol's 2S for a CH.

-5K beats his jump ins.

-VV beats his jump ins.

-Beat his 2HS mixups with VV.

-If he fails to hitconfirm f.S/2S>6HS, you can back dash out of the 6HS to avoid the major block stun.

-If you're skilled enough you can beat his 6K Oki with VV or if you're even better: Grand Viper.

-2D beats OS' 6P/5K

-5HS is safe from his Fafnir

Anti airing:

-5K

-Volcanic Viper

-Air throw

Zoning

-Gunflame

-5S

-2S

-5K

-2K

-5HS

Their gameplan

Like Sol, Order-Sol is all about the rushdown. He'll aim to get and pressure you while building his charge meter. Thanks to safe windows such as AC FRC and Charge cancelling it's not too hard for him to attain charge meter. Because of his low jump chances are his jump ins can beat Sol's 5K. OS can zone you out with f.S like you can do him with 5HS. His throws can lead to huge chunk of damage in the corner so try to stay out of there. His sweet spot is you in the corner with up close. However like Sol, Order-Sol can wreck house outside of the corner.

Strategy:

Sol's objective to get in and stay in as usual. Sol's advantages are more range on his 5S and 5K and strong space control with Gunflame. This is a MAJOR advantage. Poke your way in since Sol does have the range advantage. Always GF FRC is to reduce chances of punishment. AA with 5K or VV. Always remember: If Order-Sol uses his SV in an aerial block string or tries to AA you with ALWAYS FD it. Sol should aim to stay in close as much as possible to attempt to limit Order-Sol(when he's not @lvl.3). You should try to slow down his charge while maintaining your offense. Stay out of the air as much as possible when close to him as it's really easy for him to air throw. End block strings with A)f.S B)2S C)GF FRC If he starts charging from afar 5HS and Gunflame FRC is what you do. Once he attains a lvl.3, start ending any blocked attacks with 2D and 5HS to push him out as much as possible. He hits that lvl.3 you don't want him in your face. Avoid getting in the corner because Order-Sol's corner game is really strong since a corner throw can lead to huge damage with KDs and tech traps. Stay out of the corner since as Sol, you can net huge damage anywhere. Be aware if he has tension for Fafnir since he actually doesn't need a CH to do a combo from it and it leads to huge damage. If you time your jump ins late you can avoid his Gunblaze as you'll be safe upon landing.

Character specific details:

Order-Sol's advantages are his ability to get frame advantage a lot easier than Sol(his 5K is +Fs on block and Gunblaze is +Fs on block as well, 5HS CCed gives +Fs, Rock It lvl.1, 2P). And he has a good amount of damage options via Fafnir/Gunblaze/lvl.2/3 specials/throw. His ground throw is REALLY good. It leads to KD or combo or charge or 2 out of 3 if not all three. His air throw is much more important because it leads straight to his oki and/or charge and because his low jump makes it easier for him to land an air throw. Order-Sol's mixups are a bit better than Sol's via BRP FRC, 2HS, throw, Gunblaze FRC and Gunblaze crossup. Keep in mind if Order-Sol gets two KDs on you via Action Charge he'll be borderline lvl.3. His Storm Viper beats all of Sol's jump ins so don't think j.HS is a great jump in option here. Technically you shouldn't be jumping in on him much anyway. Order-Sol is Sol so the strongest SW combo you can do on Sol works on him too. When it comes to 2D, Os' is much safer because his CC ability makes it safe and it can lead to a good damaging combo on hit whereas Sol's is always unsafe on block.

--Member submitted info

Order-Sol's weakness is that he has no way to safely cover himself to get in outside of Lvl.2/3 BHB AC FRC. Order-Sol lacks good close/mid range pokes like Sol's 5S and 5K so his options are Fafnir and f.S(this is why Slayer/Axl/Johnny are harder for him than for Sol). His 5K is about half the range of Sol's since it's only the 1st hit(the knee) His 5S functions better as an AA than a mid range poke and doesn't cover as much range as Sol's 5S. Sol also has a good tick throw setups that are better than Order-Sol's eventhough they're a bit more risky.

What both Sol's are good at is getting people into the corner. And both their 2D on CH leads to a good damaging combo.

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Wow Reaver... so I take it you've never seen anyone EVER back away in a GG match before? Even Sol players have thrown out a GF FRC and backed off. If you're so confident I take it you can block easily on reaction even the fastest pokes?

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Never seen anyone back away in a GG match before? They all back away from me, and they're right to do so. If so, then why does OS have the walk away opener while Sol doesn't? OS is by no means required to run or walk away from his opponents to win, which also applies to Sol. Run away is what opponents usually do to him giving him more trouble then he can handle. You also left out jump attacks out of the openers, which in OS's case out prioritize Sol's 5K(not to mention it also kills of plenty 6Ps of other characters). If you can't beat his 5K with your own j.H you're doing it wrong. Using 5K as Sol against OS is a dumb idea, OS has a nice combo that comes after the sweep(not to mention sweep CC has advantage on guard), and 5K does NOT beat sweeps. If Sol wants a good poke/attack outside gunflame shenanigans, 5H most likely will be it; and scoring it on CH hurts enough to make OS think twice about throwing out anything in that hitbox(fafnir protection!). If you're in the corner and you see 2H from OS, you should backdash it if you can, because its a free command throw, just like potemkin has with his buster. This applies to any slow attack launched at Sol. At the same time, OS has as much use for backdashing in that same situation since his throw combo is corner dependent. OS can also backdash midscreen if he's able to punish an attack with fafnir. And to give a suggestion where Sol should be: midscreen to opponent's corner, outside dashing dustloop range as that prevents OS taking 250 off from certain hits. At the same time, doing this your own damage should be unaffected. As for the styles: "Charge-dependent style", the term which covers about 90% of all OS players, are suggested by you to be defensive players. I remember 0 and kaqn being pretty aggressive at times, even KZO who randomly decides to action charge at times is a typical rushdown example. At the same time "offensive style" isn't an opposite to "charge dependent style", though this also easily covers about 60% of the OS players that I know to exist. Offensive style would be any lvl form that's based on attacking(l1:KZO, l2:kaqn pre-retirement, l3:0,kaqn post-retirement). Where the desired level can be obtained by converting tension into your charge gauge by AC FRCing, or by relying on knockdown charge/action charge at certain supposed "safe" moments. The latter of which is dominant amongst the majority of players. The more offensive style OS likes to jump your attacks, and since all your attacks hit about the same box, save for 5K,2K,2H,2D and 6H its not a good idea to spam them(mind you that 5K, 6H and 2H get you sweeped, 2K and 2D can get you CH fafnired). What you'd much rather want to do is only 5H when you're decently sure he's not going to jump. This is pretty much one of the non-theory part, if you guess right, you might get a CH 5H into combo, a CH VV into combo and, if the OS player did it wrong, you might get a 5K into a SW combo. You can attempt to intercept OS's jump, but remember that no matter what you do, OS will most likely end up being below you, when you both whiff your j.P OS gets the free throw since he's below Sol. An opposite of this would be "defensive style" which as you mentioned at a wrong place, rely on running away by the style user, to lure you, he charges(pretty much always to l3). An example here would be Inoue(who even manages to get rushed down by a bridget in the process :S). The defensive style in general is slow paced and there's no reason for Sol to fret at l3, since the only l3 move that can harm him through gun flame is l3BHB. Otherwise its business as usual and without a corner, only when OS gets close he can top the 200 dmg with a l3 combo, so don't let him get close. Even better, when OS failed to hitconfirm his l3 goes out the window just like that.

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Never seen anyone back away in a GG match before? They all back away from me, and they're right to do so.

Maybe they became experienced in your playstyle?

If so, then why does OS have the walk away opener while Sol doesn't?

Simple. I forgot to type it in.

OS is by no means required to run or walk away from his opponents to win, which also applies to Sol.

Never said it was required....

Run away is what opponents usually do to him giving him more trouble then he can handle.

Right, so Sol willingly giving Order-Sol an easy window to charge up or rush him down is what he should do?

You also left out jump attacks out of the openers, which in OS's case out prioritize Sol's 5K

If you get the timing down..... which out of itself isn't some easy thing to do. Yeah, you can do jump ins on Sol, not that I would advise it as something you should repeatedly do. Not to mention his VV which crushes all Order-Sol's jump ins. Order-Sol's jump isn't something that players have a seriously hard time reacting to. Just because the Sol's you fight fail to AA HOS doesn't all of them do.

(not to mention it also kills of plenty 6Ps of other characters).

Okay, but Sol doesn't AA with 6P against Order-Sol.

If you can't beat his 5K with your own j.H you're doing it wrong.

Since you brought in Japanese players, Kaqn and Isa had a match quite some time ago. I Kaqn jumped in on Isa, Isa AAed with VV RCed and did a SW combos and won the 1st round. You jump in with j.HS you better be sure Sol tries an 5K if you're so sure Order-Sol's j.HS will win. Also I've seen Sol's 2HS trade and even beat Order-Sol's j.HS.

Using 5K as Sol against OS is a dumb idea, OS has a nice combo that comes after the sweep(not to mention sweep CC has advantage on guard), and 5K does NOT beat sweeps.

That goes both ways. Sol can do the same to Order-Sol. And on CH his 2D leads to a half life combo. GV or GF FRC or Fafnir clean hit.

If Sol wants a good poke/attack outside gunflame shenanigans, 5H most likely will be it; and scoring it on CH hurts enough to make OS think twice about throwing out anything in that hitbox(fafnir protection!).

Good point.

If you're in the corner and you see 2H from OS, you should backdash it if you can, because its a free command throw, just like potemkin has with his buster.

If you can by all means go for a backdash afterall I did post if you can beat Rock It strings with VV/GV. It's an option.

This applies to any slow attack launched at Sol.

Incorrect. Plenty of slow attacks can/will beat Sol's Wild Throw. Most tend to be used at a range in which he cannot land it anyway.

At the same time, OS has as much use for backdashing in that same situation since his throw combo is corner dependent.

Order-Sol backdashes, Sol's 5K can catch him.

OS can also backdash midscreen if he's able to punish an attack with fafnir
And against Sol this attack would be?

And to give a suggestion where Sol should be: midscreen to opponent's corner, outside dashing dustloop range as that prevents OS taking 250 off from certain hits. At the same time, doing this your own damage should be unaffected.

I agree.

"Charge-dependent style", the term which covers about 90% of all OS players, are suggested by you to be defensive players.

My mistake. Should have not labelled the other style "offensive". That's were you got the "defensive" from.

I remember 0 and kaqn being pretty aggressive at times, even KZO who randomly decides to action charge at times is a typical rushdown example.

IIRC that can be said about ALL Order-Sol players.

At the same time "offensive style" isn't an opposite to "charge dependent style"

Never said it was an opposite. My mistake. Shouldn't have said "or". Or implied it.

Offensive style would be any lvl form that's based on attacking(l1:KZO, l2:kaqn pre-retirement, l3:0,kaqn post-retirement).

Isn't that what I said? Order-Sol ATTACKING Sol? Poking in? Rushing down?

Where the desired level can be obtained by converting tension into your charge gauge by AC FRCing, or by relying on knockdown charge/action charge at certain supposed "safe" moments. The latter of which is dominant amongst the majority of players.

When I was writing that up I was pondering if I should have included a combination of both...

The more offensive style OS likes to jump your attacks, and since all your attacks hit about the same box, save for 5K,2K,2H,2D and 6H

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Maybe they became experienced in your playstyle?

Yes

Simple. I forgot to type it in.

Never said it was required....

Right, so Sol willingly giving Order-Sol an easy window to charge up or rush him down is what he should do?

What I'm saying is, do not go out of your ways to attempt to halt the charge. At some point OS has to attack anyways and he's usually lower on tension then you are because backwards running players don't gain any tension.

If you get the timing down..... which out of itself isn't some easy thing to do. Yeah, you can do jump ins on Sol, not that I would advise it as something you should repeatedly do. Not to mention his VV which crushes all Order-Sol's jump ins. Order-Sol's jump isn't something that players have a seriously hard time reacting to. Just because the Sol's you fight fail to AA HOS doesn't all of them do.

Okay, but Sol doesn't AA with 6P against Order-Sol.

Since you brought in Japanese players, Kaqn and Isa had a match quite some time ago. I Kaqn jumped in on Isa, Isa AAed with VV RCed and did a SW combos and won the 1st round. You jump in with j.HS you better be sure Sol tries an 5K if you're so sure Order-Sol's j.HS will win. Also I've seen Sol's 2HS trade and even beat Order-Sol's j.HS.

Yes, crouching attacks tend to leave the attacker crouching while the attack itself can be on AA level, this is one of those cases, Eddies and Ky's are other cases.

That goes both ways. Sol can do the same to Order-Sol. And on CH his 2D leads to a half life combo. GV or GF FRC or Fafnir clean hit.

Yes, but OS's is safe and doesn't require any tension. His sweep will always be threatening you while yours requires 25% tension for hit confirm or risks yours safety where you can eat a monstrous combo.

If you can by all means go for a backdash afterall I did post if you can beat Rock It strings with VV/GV. It's an option.

Incorrect. Plenty of slow attacks can/will beat Sol's Wild Throw. Most tend to be used at a range in which he cannot land it anyway.

You do not do wild throw through their attacks, you do wild throw after backdashing, which leaves opponent in whiff recovery.

Order-Sol backdashes, Sol's 5K can catch him.

And against Sol this attack would be?

5K is a 3 frame attack, that's not slow, unless you're superman or some shit.

Examples would be 5D, (2D, 2H, WT <--- these are actually fast, but have SLOW whiff recovery) and 6H

Isn't that what I said? Order-Sol ATTACKING Sol? Poking in? Rushing down?

In a lot of words, yes. But if I'm re-categorizing I'm supposed to give the full deal on what these categories mean.

Sol has teh potential to do the same. The air game isn't one sided.

Sol's airgame isn't as safe as OS's and is a direct throw hazard in any case. Not to mention GB can be luring out there too. Sol's means for jumping normals(and fafnir) would be IAD attacks(otherwise he can't do damage) and those are a GB and intercept risk.

Order-Sol's 5K,6P,5S can get him sweeped too. They both have strong punishers for each other.

That means neither side should use those type of attacks, unless they're sure they can get away with it;)

I'd say lvl.2 can do just fine as well.

l3 is more popular, and staying on level 2 isn't your target when you're running away to charge. Often l3 players end up in l2 because they get interrupted or something.

Anyone can rush down in GG. Order-Sol can get rushed by Ky, Faust, Venom, Testament, May, Dizzy, Chipp, Millia, even Slayer.

Yes, anyone can rush down in GG, but OS fits this role best, Inoue was rushed down while he, with a rushdown character, was running away to charge.

IIRC even in Slash, Gunflame can be beaten with Rock It if timed correctly. I believe a lvl.3 can do the same. Let's not forget Savage Fang and Tyrant Rave. Even Fafnir can catch him before he reaches the FRC point.

A Ri timed correctly would mean Sol was using GF from too close or was late using it. A plain Ri launched early is a free sweep into combo anyways. The other three options also apply to level 1 OS, bait them.

Don't let Order-Sol get close? The only thing I can say towards keeping Order-Sol out at level 3 is that';s the time Sol should start ending block strings with 2D and 5HS. Maximize the use of the pushback.

Why would you want him close? He's l3, he wants to unleash some charge upon you, he'd want to get in about now. And the only way you should let him in is by having him use his l3BHB. The important thing here is that if he hits you, he only hits you with like... 2S and cannot follow up with 5H(very important). If he does 5H, the 5H will whiff then and you get your free combo, if he is/turns smart, he'll start using the l3Ri from that attack and that will only net him 160 damage or so outside corner situations. Even inside corner situations l3Ri isn't the cream of the crop for OS.

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What I'm saying is, do not go out of your ways to attempt to halt the charge. At some point OS has to attack anyways and he's usually lower on tension then you are because backwards running players don't gain any tension.

Understandable.

Yes, but OS's is safe and doesn't require any tension. His sweep will always be threatening you while yours requires 25% tension for hit confirm or risks yours safety where you can eat a monstrous combo.

I wouldn't say Sol really risks eating a monterous combo unless OS has 25% ready to punish Sol's 2D. I know Sol's 2D is -6F on block so yeah in terms of who can rely more on their 2D I'd say OS.

You do not do wild throw through their attacks, you do wild throw after backdashing, which leaves opponent in whiff recovery.

I know, but with OS he can willingly eliminate his weakness so Wild Throw punishes aren't as easy to come by.

Sol's airgame isn't as safe as OS's and is a direct throw hazard in any case. Not to mention GB can be luring out there too. Sol's means for jumping normals(and fafnir) would be IAD attacks(otherwise he can't do damage) and those are a GB and intercept risk.

About Gunblaze, an late jump in by Sol makes him safe againt Gunblaze because he'll recover fast enough to block. Jumping in on OS is much harder because As I said before, his throws are REALLY good and his low jump makes it even deadlier.

l3 is more popular, and staying on level 2 isn't your target when you're running away to charge. Often l3 players end up in l2 because they get interrupted or something.

I say play to win. If Sol is near and I'm at lvl.2, I'm ready.

Why would you want him close? He's l3, he wants to unleash some charge upon you, he'd want to get in about now. And the only way you should let him in is by having him use his l3BHB. The important thing here is that if he hits you, he only hits you with like... 2S and cannot follow up with 5H(very important). If he does 5H, the 5H will whiff then and you get your free combo, if he is/turns smart, he'll start using the l3Ri from that attack and that will only net him 160 damage or so outside corner situations. Even inside corner situations l3Ri isn't the cream of the crop for OS.

160 isn't that bad so I wouldn't overlook that at all and lvl.3 rock it takes anyone straight into the corner.

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No, not punish the 2D, unless you plan to fafnir stuff it(which is also a good idea), but punish the thing he cancels into. Its 160 compared to 200+, so which one do you pick?:) And most, if not any, l3Ri combo is techable, which means they can get out of the corner pretty easily.

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Theory Fighter X-2: Grand Theory Challenge.

Anyway, I'm not that great at gg yet. Advice: Get away from gun blazes.

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