Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Nehle

AC+R: Dizzy Changes

Recommended Posts

What exactly makes her S tier all of a sudden?

People have only played the game for 2 weeks and haven't found ways to handle her is the biggest reason probably, but

* Her neutral is vastly improved over AC. Really. 25% tension dizzy is really hard to get in on and can get KD from pretty much anywhere. Laser fish in neutral is retarded in a good way.

* Oki has gone from "very good" to "GDLK"

Also, don't take this tier list as anything resembling a fact. It's a community list made a few weeks after the balance patch. It's bound to change. IMO, it's not much more than an indication of what 5-10 characters will be at the top and who will be at the bottom.

Edited by Nehle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Amen on the godlike oki. I went through a large chunk of the AC+R videos posted here and it's amazing what the new K fish allows you to do. Those extra active frames really give you a plethora of new mixup options!

Also, 2k > 5H and 5H > 2D is so huge. 236D and 421D are game changers. 2k 80% proration is actually pretty huge as well, I used to just focus on knockdown when starting with 2k, now I can extend those combos. j.2S 90% prorate I actually agree with, it was needed considering you can IAD a lot of the cast on crouch.

Any great uses for D fish?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It has considerable move ack and delay compared to other fish, this is important if you expect someone to rush in with fast attacks to kill the fish and hit you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm probably not the first one to ask this, but is Dizzy still capable of performing bubble loops in AC+R?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dizzy can still do Bubble Loops in AC+R.

They usually result through Fish Summon stuffs via okizeme.

Whether AC Fish Summon okizeme/setups into Bubble Loop still work is another question, but there are new scenarios for Bubble Loop opportunities (via Fish Summon okizeme), some of which are listed in the AC+R: Okizeme thread.

Direct methods of doing Bubble Loop are likely to still work in AC+R.

Bubble Loops are still hype.

And yes, you are the first person to ask this, to my knowledge anyway, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great, so progress on mastering the bubble loop won't be waisted. I've been working really hard with Dizzy, and I'm starting to get a lot better. (But I'm still no where near good enough to compete online.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

since there hasn't been much discussion of dizzy lately,

I feel that AC+R dizzy is the same on neutral excluding here far ice spike which changes certainly zoning match up for better e.g venom, zappa, Eddie ectera. Her KD in AC+R is probably the because game changer with fish been several times stronger given her solid mix up with little to no holes, a perfect block string almost, new fuzzy guard and IAD backwards jhs into D fish.

Anyway after testing.

2D KD is not a meaty and can be jump out, which 2hs KD is based on character weight + wake up + jump frames, so it not something you can read off from data, atm it works on most of the female characters. I'm sure some people already know but its helpful for me at least to know which match up and set ups I need to know ^^,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, almost every KD oki requires a meaty normal to stop the jump-outs. I actually think a bigger problem is the fact that K has almost no reach at all so usually you can't just 2D > KD anyways, since that'll make the KD miss

Also find it a bit annoying that I can't delay special cancel off of 2D without doing the jump cancel. Not a big thing, but just unnecessary that I still have to jump cancel cancel in some circumstance..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well 2d delay special cancel via jump cancel is an added layer or technique at least we have that option, thanks for reminding me. Although I do like having access to 2d-> air pike (421s) again it feels really good, furthermore, 2d-> 421s is actually meaty vs some character e.g slayer.

The problem with K fish is it has no range hence at mid screen it is only viable with throws or ice spike frc set up, however does give you access to your better mix up. I've spent a lot of time playing with fuzzy guard but in general it will be land k fish 3 hit -> falling j.hs-> raising j.p.

With Ac+r it does feeling like I'm learning dizzy over again but properly given her better set ups and mix up. Another thing I notice watching kazuki is her Ad/IAD back j,hs mix up. It is something like throw-> dash KD fish jump forward S bubble now the mix up is after S bubble to go into IAD jhs-> D fish stagger, what I didn't know is that you can FD to correct your air position so you can AD forward and J.hs the other side, because I've always wonder how people do the double AD forward into j.hs from mid-screen in reload.

More things to learn~~

P.S anyone have some hidden dizzy technique they want to share.

Edited by zaeris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I managed to play a little +R Dizzy on my friend's PS Vita, and I gotta say, the fact that her laser fish summons now cause wal stick on air borne opponents is super fucking useful for setting up a bunch of corner Oki, their often times where I use it along side an Ice Spike, and my foe just wall sticks after being hit by the wall stick. Plus, it gets super easy to set up a bubble loop with the new wall stick.

Also, her fish summons, while confusing, have improved a lot. I love how the P Fish Summons range has increased, while the K Fish Summon now does more bites for hit stun. I think Eddie and Millia better watch out, because Dizzy has some Oki games that are just as scary this time around.

I'm not sure how useful her FB Spear Summon is though, since in most situations I could use it, I forgot it was there. Not to mention, I'm usually spending meter on faultless defense or Imperial Ray for some more breathing room.

I also haven't used the bubbles auto pop feature that much, and I haven't really touched her new D version of the Ice Spike.

I plan on getting +R This evening off of the Japanese PSN, and I'll post some more thoughts afterward. But all and all, super hyped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of the Dizzy changes seem useful/convenient but not completely game-changing on their own. Combined though they make a huge difference. I just played in my first real +R tournament where everyone actually had a chance to learn the new changes and I had a much better performance than usual, which I can only attribute to the Dizzy changes as my own improvement had stalled pretty hard in AC. The 2K > 5H, 5H > 2D, and 2D > icespike combos make a world of difference in getting knockdowns and combos without having to play guessing games with how far Dizzy is from the opponent or how wide their standing hitbox is, or wrangling with the old 2D jumpcancel icespike input. I had maybe one or two times where autopop bubble got me a combo and even won a round, and FB daggers proved to be quite useful in a few matchups.

I think I went 3-2, beating a Testament, Sol, and Ky, and then got destroyed by Millia which is what usually happens when I play against her since Slash. Last match was against Faust which I have also always struggled with, D icespike was extremely useful in that matchup but I still lost. Between his improvements and Dizzy's improvements the match felt about the same but it at least feels a lot better once you manage to get in on him.

I still need a lot of work, getting all the setup timings and knowing the wakeup speed for every character is very difficult. I am getting thrown out of my empty airdash 2K mixup attempts a lot so I need to figure out something for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, her fish summons, while confusing, have improved a lot. I love how the P Fish Summons range has increased, while the K Fish Summon now does more bites for hit stun. I think Eddie and Millia better watch out, because Dizzy has some Oki games that are just as scary this time around.

I'm not sure how useful her FB Spear Summon is though, since in most situations I could use it, I forgot it was there. Not to mention, I'm usually spending meter on faultless defense or Imperial Ray for some more breathing room.

I also haven't used the bubbles auto pop feature that much, and I haven't really touched her new D version of the Ice Spike.

Prior to AC, P Fish Summon was 3-bite and had good range stuffs, so it's nice to have it back to somewhat familiar status; though it seems to channel pre-AC K Fish Summon stuffs now.

FB Spear seems limited right now since it barely gets some shine outside of long-range reprisal stuffs.

Same as bubble auto-pop; how do you integrate that aspect of the move into your gameplan stuffs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Prior to AC, P Fish Summon was 3-bite and had good range stuffs, so it's nice to have it back to somewhat familiar status; though it seems to channel pre-AC K Fish Summon stuffs now.

FB Spear seems limited right now since it barely gets some shine outside of long-range reprisal stuffs.

Same as bubble auto-pop; how do you integrate that aspect of the move into your gameplan stuffs?

for me anyway, you can use Fb spears in D bite combo extender to end your combo into 2hs set up.

e.g.

2k 5hs -> 421 -> D bite -> stagger 2k 5hs ]s[ 421D -> dash 2hs, of course you can try linking releasr pike into IAD jp j2s JHS ^^,

why do this? to set up a 2hs kd in corner into D/HS fish meaty since in regular okizeme, your summons will be on cool down and thus you must use ice spike. Other uses as seen by kazuki is to set up k fish safely using 421 s and 421 D together.

Bubble auto pop? well its just additional threat just having it on the screen makes your opponent more cautions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love the FB dagger for just keeping momentum in pressure, much like how testament used EXE FRC. It's also good for surprise snipes at some points I guess. Even at full screen if someone blocks it it gives you loads of time. Even without the FRC the frame advantage is awesome

Auto-pop I like especially for FB bubble in neutral game. It creates more breathing room than before. In vanilla AC I would actually have to maintain the spacing so that popping the bubble was a threat, now I can back off more and try to create space for myself while the bubble is there.

There are also some gimmicky setups in oki where you can do a blockstring into a bubble self-pop while you summon, but I don't think they're that useful since you generally get poorer summons from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glitch HP Fish Summon: P Fish > H Laser

1st P Fish bite will act at around D Ice Spike range (approximately 3/4 screen from Dizzy).

2nd P Fish bite will act at the edge of full-sceen distance.

H Laser will then sweep down toward the ground.

Glitch HK Fish Summon: K Fish > H Laser

K Fish bite will act at around half-screen distance.

H Laser will then act at half-screen distance, sweep downward, and fire at around the ground level.

Glitch HD Fish Summon: D Fish > H Laser

D Fish bite will act at a range, just inside that of D Ice Spike range (approximately 2/3 screen from Dizzy).

H Laser will then act and move backward toward/in front of Dizzy, then sweep down toward the ground.

Glitch SP Fish Summon: P Fish > S Laser

1st P Fish bite will act at around D Ice Spike range (approximately 3/4 screen from Dizzy).

2nd P Fish bite will act at the edge of full-screen distance.

S Laser will then sweep upward at a height less than a normal S Laser.

Glitch SK Fish Summon: K Fish > S Laser

K Fish bite will act at around half-screen distance.

S Laser will then act at half-screen distance, sweep upward, and fire from around the upper body region to just above the head level.

Glitch SD Fish Summon: D Fish > S Laser

D Fish bite will act at a range, just inside that of D Ice Spike range (approximately 2/3 screen from Dizzy).

S Laser will then act and move backward toward/in front of Dizzy, then sweep upward from head level.

Notes:

  • All setups were tested at full-screen and zoomed-out distance.
  • The distance gain for 'bite' fish stuffs is quite substantial.
  • 'bite' Fish Summons usually tend to move back, then forward, before acting.
  • In dynamic movement/positioning scenarios, the 'bite'/'laser' Fish Summons can potentially attack an opponent from behind.



    Glitch Fish Summon: Corner Okizeme stuffs
    Notes:

    • All setups were tested in the corner, after a throw.
    • Glitch Fish Summon stuffs hit from the front, with follow-ups tending to hit at the edge of the screen distance. The exceptions are Glitch HD and Glitch SD, in which the follow-up 'laser' Fish Summon will attack from a position that is relatively near/close to Dizzy's proximity.
    • Glitch HD Fish Summon and Glitch SD Fish Summon could potentially lead to wallstick scenarios, depending on the gatling to the 'launch' move (2H, 2D, 6P).
Edited by Kurokun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are the names for the glitch fish in reverse order to what you summoned?

What is this glitch in the first place?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How to perform a Glitch Fish Summon:

... the glitch fish is performed by hitting the 2nd fish input right at the end of the animation. If you time it right you get a fish that starts out performing the first command, then switches to the 2nd command, and afterwards immediately finishes the first command.

An example of a Glitch Fish Summon in AC:

Anyway, here is a video of it in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGCyrnOAeK8

It uses the delayed summon version of 214H~K. If you haven't seen this version, basically the fish comes out like a HS laser, then switches to the K bite. Then, right after it bites, it switches back to the rest of the HS laser animation.

Glitch Fish Summon is a scenario that switches up the attack order of the inputted Fish Summon command combination/sequence.

The technique utilizes the startup/pre-activation movement animation of Laser Fish Summon stuffs (H/S Fish Summon) to have the follow-up 'bite' Fish Summon stuffs (P/K/D Fish Summon) activate first, then follows-up with the (completed) Laser Fish Summon afterwards.

The 'bite' Fish Summons used in this manner gain extra distance (via the Laser Fish Summon start-up activation distance) that increases their effective activity range, in regards to spacing/zoning.

The reason why the Glitch Fish Summons are named as thus, is because the 'glitch' variants are based off of pre-existing Fish Summon input commands, though relative to the Laser Fish Summon utilized.

Even though the 'bite' Fish Summon fully activates first in the sequence, it isn't the first input command, which the Laser Fish Summon is.

Using the above quoted example of the Glitch HK Fish Summon, though K Fish acts before the completed H Laser, you don't input the command for K Fish Summon first, but do so within the start-up activation movement animation of H Fish Summon.

Though notation isn't really used often to describe Glitch Fish Summon stuffs, Glitch (insert combination here) Fish Summon easily conveys the concept, relative to the input method, though the visual of the sequence suggests otherwise.

Overall, Glitch Fish Summon stuffs are a YMMV scenario.

Utilization of the technique will depend on your experience level, relative to the match-ups you play.

Some people like the distance gain for 'bite' Fish Summon stuffs at longer ranges, in regards to spacing/zoning.

One example of Glitch Fish Summon usage was using it against Robo Ky's delayed wake-up in AC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×