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VR-Raiden

[+R] Sol Badguy Gameplay Discussion

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Figured we could use a new thread for discussing Sol in the newest GG. I'll be updating the first post as more info comes.

Took a quick gander at Sol's frame data, gonna translate as many of the changes as I can.

Normals

5P - Damage during Dragon Install has been increased from 10 to 12.

5K - No longer jump cancelable during Dragon Install.

c.S - Recovery time has been reduced from 16F to 12F.

f.S - Static Difference during Dragon Install has been increased from -1 to 0.

6P - Untechable time has been increased from 28F to 30F, now applies to both ground and air hit instead of just ground hit.

6HS - Damage has been reduced from 40x2 to 32x2. Now a Level 4 move. Static Difference reduced from -12 to -14. No longer staggers.

5D - Startup time has been increased from 22[16] to 24[18].

2HS - Untechable time on Counter Hit has been increased from 52F to 60F.

2D - 90% proration added.

j.S - 90% proration removed.

j.D - Untechable time has been increased from 23F to 27F.

Specials

Grand Viper - Active frames changed from 4x3,2x3,7,(19),3 to 4x4,2x2,5,(20),3.

Bandit Revolver - Landing recovery reduced from 8F to 7F.

Bandit Bringer - Static Difference increased from 0 to +1. Clean Hit property added. Now ground bounces on normal hit (untechable for 50F, 80F on Clean Hit). Counter Hit untechable time increased from 140F to 152F.

New move: Fafnir (41236HS)

Damage: 40

Level: 4

Guard: High, Low, Faultless

Cancel: Roman

Startup: 19

Active: 3

Recovery: 27

Static Difference: -13

Notes:

70% forced proration.

Stagger on ground hit (Max: 42F).

Knocks down on air hit (untechable for 24F).

Slides on Counter Hit (untechable for 56F, slides for 40F).

Can follow-up into Tyrant Rave on frames 20-25.

New move: Tatakiotoshi (DI version) (j.214K during Dragon Install)

Damage: 60

Level: 3

Guard: High, Air

Cancel: Roman

Startup: 17

Active: 12

Recovery: Until landing + 10

Static Difference: +3

Notes:

80% proration.

Ground bounces on hit (untechable for 55F).

Static Difference is based on connecting at minimum height (startup: 20).

Force Breaks

Fafnir - Throw invincibility increased from frames 1-7 to until active frames. Now knocks down on hit (untechable for 40F) and slides on Clean Hit (untechable for 80F, slides for 28F). Tyrant Rave follow-up window increased from frames 12-17 to frames 12-18.

Tyrant Rave - Command changed from 46D to 64D. Damage changed from 40x3+84 to (25+30n)x3+84, where n = number of Clean Hits in the combo. Startup time reduced from 7+1 to 3+1. Recovery time increased from 21F to 35F. Hits 2-4 can pass through projectiles (this was the case before, it was just documented erroneously).

New move: Sidewinder (j.236D)

Basic properties are the same as regular Sidewinder. Damage is listed as 60 instead of 35, but that's because you can't not get a Clean Hit, so the raw damage is always 35+25.

Notes:

70% forced proration.

Wall bounces on hit (untechable for 56F).

Guaranteed Clean Hit.

Sol is in Counter Hit state during landing recovery.

Hitstop: 27.

On hit, the opponent gains Tension Gauge and Burst Gauge based on 70% of the damage value.

Overdrives

Tyrant Rave ver. Beta - Second hit now wall sticks (untechable for 80F, sticks for 32F).

Dragon Install - Startup time reduced from 19+9 to 19+1. Startup invincibility increased from frames 1-18 to frames 1-19 (strike invincibility is still frames 19-21 though, so it might be a mistype).

There might be some mistakes here or there, but that's the gist of it.

Footage from final release (post new vids here): Video thread

Footage of new BB and Fafnir:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8mwuFY0X4o&t=0m33s

Changes for 1st loketest:

- Return of the old tensionless Fafnir, possible to cancel and combo from (CH)f.S, 5H, 2D. Causes stagger on normal hit, lost FRC(?)

- FB Fafnir now causes ground slide. Also cancelable into like normal Fafnir. 2D > FB Fafnir clean hits.

- Tyrant rave (fafnir followup after H or D fafnir) command changed to 64D from 46D

- 214K after VV during dragon install is now possible. Can also be done on its own, j.214K.

- New FB sidewinder, j.236D. Seems to guarantee clean hit, has larger hitbox. Does not hit overhead.

- BB can now clean hit on air hit, causes bounce on normal ground hit.

Some info quoted from the 6/2 loketest thread:

Fafnir and FB Fafnir can be executed as Special Cancels

{2D, FB Fafnir Clean Hit} combos, causing sliding in Clean Hit

Dragon Install j.214K apparently loops; needs a minimum height, causes a big bounce

FB Sidewinder forces Clean Hit

HS Fafnir has a different start-up (?); combos after f.S, 5HS and 2D

HS Fafnir doesn't combo from normal f.S, only counter hit f.S

Sol 5H to normalfafnir connects.

FB-Sidewinder seems to be a guaranteed cleanhit.

Fafnir doesn't have FRC (?)

Bandit Bringer causes bounce even if it hits the opponent on the ground

Dragon Install j.214K is fiery (lol) (start-up similar to FB Greed Saber?)

FB fafnir does ground slide. Can combo in corner

Can do DP follow up kick on its own in dragon install as regular air special. Flaming

FB fafnir is cancellable into just as the normal one.

FB sidewinder looks like auto clean hit and seems to have a crazy hitbox.

j.214K in dragon install looks like a new animation, goes down to the ground with a Jam like 214K fire kick, very fast

Changes for 2nd loketest:

c.S

guard advantage now ±0F

2S

ground untechable time from counterhit lengthened

j.D

ground untechable time from 17 to 26f

6H

can now be gattled into from S

attack level now 4

no longer staggers

damage reduced from 40 to 32

bandit bringer

now ground bounds, also clean hits

air bandit bringer

can now be held, it seems (not too sure of the wording here)

HS fafnir

new move

FB sidewinder

new move

FB fafnir

can now be cancelled from a normal

now knocks down

groundslides during a clean hit

unthrowable

FB tyrant rave

command is 64D

can also be held

can be done from HS fafnir

increased damage when you do a number of clean hits in a combo (?)

<sidewinder has the same property>

damage now 25 x 3 + 84

wallbounce removed

faster by 2 frames

tyrant rave ver.b

1st hit floats higher

2nd hit wallsticks

dragon install / second

recovery shorter by 8 frames

now gets a new knockdown attack!! what wonders

Edited by VR-Raiden

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Thought I'd give my input so far..

-Alright, so Fafnir comboing then staggering after FOOTSIE tools is friggin godlike, nuff said. He's capable of putting you into a situation where you mash out of stagger and get counter hit AGAIN possibly, or throw them afterwards. This is probably one of my most favorite changes seeing as he gets alot more for using 5H and f.S(on CH) in footsies. Not only do you control space with his f.S and 5H, now they can serve as a way to start an offense and keep the opponent on their toes.

-Sol's damage potential off of a 2D got even better since both Fafnirs are can be cancelled into from 2D, FB giving a clean hit, which will probably go into a SW loop, you can GV to catch up with them if Fafnir doesn't recover fast enough but this doesn't work on everyone(?). Sol being dangerous as early as 25% no counterhit is an amazing improvement and if H Fafnir is the Fafnir we've always known, then in the corner we get lift and can go into a SW loop via 2D>Fafnir. H Fafnir losing its FRC point is a little sad but the move was hardly used in #Reload days anyhow.. I wonder the how the frame data is looking... If I could have one wish for both Fafnirs, it'd probably have to be that BOTH gain throw invuln... that would just be amazing.

-Dragon Install however... we have no word of it retaining the part of it that ends Dragon Install on a knockdown and drains all of Sol's tension... yada yada yada. The j214k new move could lead to interesting combos, possibly damaging ones (as if he didn't have that without DI). Maybe if j214k was an overhead... Dragon Install could be a scary move though overall I don't think it'll see much use.

-Bandit Bringer doing clean hit now is something that will need to be played with.. we do have the option of CH 2D>GF FRC>BB clean hit> do Sol stuff though. I'm not sure how that would affect combo damage, but it's a new combo path we have, and makes for easier SW loops because of the bounce.

Overall I'd say I'm pretty damn happy so far but I don't have my hopes up too high, it's only the first loketest.

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Bandit Bringer bouncing people again is hopefully going to make combos easier, but you'd want to GF FRC into it anyway. loving the comboability of Fafnir also.

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-Sol's damage potential off of a 2D got even better since both Fafnirs are can be cancelled into from 2D, FB giving a clean hit, which will probably go into a SW loop, you can GV to catch up with them if Fafnir doesn't recover fast enough but this doesn't work on everyone(?). Sol being dangerous as early as 25% no counterhit is an amazing improvement and if H Fafnir is the Fafnir we've always known, then in the corner we get lift and can go into a SW loop via 2D>Fafnir.

That just occurred to me. We might be able to say goodbye to 2D>BR(RC)>SW and get some nice damage for only 25%.

Also the fact that you can cancel to Tyrant Rave add on off normal Fafnir sounds great. If it still has the frame advantage that could be a sure way to get in even if you don't hit confirm the f.S/5HS.

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If Bandit Bringer ground bounces on normal hit, does that mean we have the good ol' Gunflame FRC into Bandit Bringer loop from anywhere on the screen again?

Does anyone know the properties of a Bandit Bringer clean hit yet? Does it cause ground slide like it did AC+? Or something else?

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If Bandit Bringer ground bounces on normal hit, does that mean we have the good ol' Gunflame FRC into Bandit Bringer loop from anywhere on the screen again?

Does anyone know the properties of a Bandit Bringer clean hit yet? Does it cause ground slide like it did AC+? Or something else?

In this vid, he does GF FRC > BB. It seems to clean hit, and causes a ground bounce. The clean hit seems to cause the CH BB bounce height.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8mwuFY0X4o&t=0m33s

After watching again, I don't see it actually say clean hit on the screen, but that hitstop/damage definitely looks like when other moves clean hit.

Edited by VR-Raiden

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In this vid, he does GF FRC > BB. It seems to clean hit, and causes a ground bounce. The clean hit seems to cause the CH BB bounce height.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8mwuFY0X4o&t=0m33s

After watching again, I don't see it actually say clean hit on the screen, but that hitstop/damage definitely looks like when other moves clean hit.

Yeah I noticed that too, but you said before from what you've gathered that normal hit still ground bounces. Maybe a clean hit has more untechable time so you can GF -> FRC -> BB loop? And if you don't clean hit they can probably recover out of it. That's just my guess on the purpose of the clean hit for BB. There could be more. :)

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So I read that FB Sidewinder has a huge hitbox and clean hits even if they're grounded.

If they keep it with the same properties as regular sidewinder, then that gives us a MEAN new overhead to play with. If the hitbox is big enough to hit with a Tiger Knee and/or the minimum height requirement gets lowered...hoo boy.

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So I read that FB Sidewinder has a huge hitbox and clean hits even if they're grounded.

If they keep it with the same properties as regular sidewinder, then that gives us a MEAN new overhead to play with. If the hitbox is big enough to hit with a Tiger Knee and/or the minimum height requirement gets lowered...hoo boy.

Where did you read this? Show me! :D

Where did it say clean hit when they're grounded?

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I didn't see that anywhere on here but I maybe I missed it. I wouldn't be surprised though, I bet it acts like CH SW does in AC. Also I was thinking, it'll be good when you hit something like a j.D from too far away to CL with a normal SW. Like if you do jump over > air dash back j.D > FB SW. Or if you mistimed your combo somehow you could probly use it to salvage the combo when you can tell a normal SW won't CL.

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http://wiki.livedoor.jp/ggxx_matome/d/GGXXAC%2BR%A1%A1%A5%ED%A5%B1%A5%C6%A1%A1%C2%E81%B2%F3

If you read it through google translate, it says for FB Sidewinder "To clean hit even though they are in the ground to guard against any where. Powerful. "

I realized that it might not be an overhead, but clean hit on grounded hit is still REALLY GOOD.

It's good that it's auto clean hit and likely keeps the same force prorate. That way using meter just makes it easier, not ridiculous, 100% combo powerful.

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well, considering that barring any major changes, i will main sol in acr...... i love the changes.

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hmm wiki doesnt say HS fafnir from 2d, i guess that was wrong info :(

but it says normal cancellable? so does that mean 2d>HS fafnir still works?

edit: nvm on FB fafnir it says you can clean hit it easily from 2d, so i guess normal HS fafnir won't work

on FB sidewinder, it says "kiresai possible"? wtf is kiresai?

clean hit FB sidewinder on guard is interesting...

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If FB Sidewinder forces a clean hit even when they're ground, maybe it can be used as part of a mix up? Like while they're in the corner, j.HS(whiff), air dash -> j.S -> FB Sidewinder? Probably not the best idea but I'm just throwing ideas out. The j.S would hit them while they're grounded even while they're crouching and the FB Sidewinder would force a clean hit on them if it really has a bigger hitbox.

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Im most curious about if it can be used in some trick ID combo... like j.d falling fb sw 2s 2h etc etc or something silly like that.

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gotta swag dude.... gotta swag

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who wants to bet that sol will be playstation tier again :D

If he is then... cool!

I've stuck with him the whole time.

I'm ok with this. lol

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saw someone say in the thread from general say 'kiresai possible' basically mains TK sidewinder

if thats accurate.... fb sidewinder mixup? sol has a high/low/throw mixup game now? da fuckkkkkk

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Well it would have to come out a lot faster/lower than a TK normal SW. Hopefully that's what they're implying. Or maybe the hitbox is massive enough to reach.

Edited by VR-Raiden

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honestly i hope its no height restriction and clean hit if you tk it

cuz when i hit 50 meter... im gonna just 2h all fucking day

2h into (tk sw for high, mash viper for low, anything into rc for wild throw)

gonnna be funnnnn

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